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Old 11-29-2012, 09:50 AM   #1
dizwiz24
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Default why 2" headers for LSx, but not SBC/ LTx... ?

I wanted to complain about how the aftermarket will launch a great product for the LSx and then a 'wimpy' product for the LTx/ SBC.

Heres an example.

vendor 'A' offers a 2" header for the LSx, but the best you can get for the SBC/LTx is a 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" 'stepped' design. ... That may be fine for 90% of the people, but what about people who are doing forced induction.

Now, dont get me wrong, I appreciate their quality recent product they developed for us. I also like how they did create a quality exhaust to mate with their headers with cat/ no cat option.

For vendor 'S' the situation is even worse

They offer a 2" header for LSx. A 1 3/4" header for f-body LT1, but a 1 5/8" header for corvette lt1 ????

The LSx is not that much better of a motor.

If I put these on a built SBC, it will more or less equal an LSx.
http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_127

The only advantage an LSx has (other than better aftermarket support) is lighter weight. Even then, aluminum SBC blocks are available. Think the titanium rods of the LS7 are great? Well, Oliver makes those too for SBC.

Last edited by dizwiz24; 11-29-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:34 AM   #2
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I def see where your coming from but LSx motors at or about 500hp are as common as people walking on two legs. LT1 motors maybe no more than 200-500 cars max putting out enough power to justify that kinda header. (guessing lol) LSx motors around that hp probly like 20,000- 50,000. ANNNYYYY WHOOOOO Basically vendors dont invest money into something with lil market.

Numbers and such are just to bring a point across. I agree it would be nice to have options. But you can always have them built.

Trust me the LSx battle for better motor has been won. LSx are the future and LTx motors died off. Stock LSx motors out perform fully modded LTx.

Just my .02
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:39 AM   #3
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No demand
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:07 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fc_soldier View Post
I Stock LSx motors out perform fully modded LTx.

Just my .02

Aaron (AKSRacing) would likely disagree with you as he achieved 900 + rwhp on an SBC build he did with an F1 blower. I think he run's low 9's on an IRS . Theres another c4 running 8's on its IRS also (bring on the IRS haters)

Ive heard of f-body LT1's making over 1000 rwhp.

The issue isnt the LSx is just so much better. The issue is the aftermarket support is so much better than what we have. Blower technology, forced induction, turbo's, meth injection, better computers, plug n play tuning, etc. all took off long after the SBC and LTx had their run at it. Theres so much more knowledge base.

ECS (East Coast Supercharging) & A&A have tons of plug and play technology available for C5/6 FI - yet they choose to do nothing for C4....

In the 90's people didnt know what in the heck they were doing when it came to EFI and computers. I laugh when I read about people using resistors to trick-out sensors and stuff to supply extra fuel for their mods. No wonder why so many amateur's blew their motors up then called it quits.

As an idea of what the C4 was capable of, look at Callaway's sledgehammer corvette. In 1988, this thing was running 254.196 MPH - with ease.

It took the 1 million+ dollar Bugatti Veyron, with double the amount of turbo's, intercoolers, technology etc. 20 years later to beat that.

That right there is a testament to what SBC was and is capable of.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:25 AM   #5
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LSx motors are currently being built. The newest LTx motors are over 15 years old. I would think the demand for 2" LTx motors is more like .0001%. Only you and Jim Barth need them.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:33 AM   #6
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I hear you but you can maybe pick a few 900-1000rwhp LTs but I can fill this page with 1300 rwhp-1500 rwhp. They make 700 rwhp-800rwhp on stock short blocks. LTs cant come to that level.

http://www.dallasperformance.com/services.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-f...hp-record.html


These cars do in a mile what the sledgehammer did in its standing 10 miles run ( or whatever the distance was) C6 231mph.
Sledgehammer is still a killer car no doubt and was street legal.

98 % of the c4s dont need a 2 inch primary.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:35 AM   #7
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Can you get two 2" pipes in the space allowed for the "center" cylinder exhaust ports on a standard SBC/LT head? (3-5 and 2-4)

I had a set of headers built for 18 heads with spread port exhaust and 1 7/8 was still tight. Probably why a lot mfrs go with a 1 3/4 step to 1 7/8 for a standard SBC head.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizwiz24 View Post
Aaron (AKSRacing) would likely disagree with you as he achieved 900 + rwhp on an SBC build he did with an F1 blower. I think he run's low 9's on an IRS . Theres another c4 running 8's on its IRS also (bring on the IRS haters)

Ive heard of f-body LT1's making over 1000 rwhp.

The issue isnt the LSx is just so much better. The issue is the aftermarket support is so much better than what we have. Blower technology, forced induction, turbo's, meth injection, better computers, plug n play tuning, etc. all took off long after the SBC and LTx had their run at it. Theres so much more knowledge base.

ECS (East Coast Supercharging) & A&A have tons of plug and play technology available for C5/6 FI - yet they choose to do nothing for C4....

In the 90's people didnt know what in the heck they were doing when it came to EFI and computers. I laugh when I read about people using resistors to trick-out sensors and stuff to supply extra fuel for their mods. No wonder why so many amateur's blew their motors up then called it quits.

As an idea of what the C4 was capable of, look at Callaway's sledgehammer corvette. In 1988, this thing was running 254.196 MPH - with ease.

It took the 1 million+ dollar Bugatti Veyron, with double the amount of turbo's, intercoolers, technology etc. 20 years later to beat that.

That right there is a testament to what SBC was and is capable of.


We choose not to get into the C4 market because I'm not personally happy with the $$ per results/HP achieved, so how can I expect you to be?

Plus as already stated, demand is not there. C4's are dinosaurs, and way behind their C5 brothers in technology. With the low cost of C5's these days it simply doesn't pay to mod a C4 IMHO.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DOUG @ ECS View Post
We choose not to get into the C4 market because I'm not personally happy with the $$ per results/HP achieved, so how can I expect you to be?

Plus as already stated, demand is not there. C4's are dinosaurs, and way behind their C5 brothers in technology. With the low cost of C5's these days it simply doesn't pay to mod a C4 IMHO.
yes, im real disappointed in ECS's decision to not do anything for c4's

I know, as a shop, you want to do stuff 'fast. Dont have the time to monkey around with the tight confines of a c4.

I think if you put the effort into c4's you'd be surprised. Again I cite Callaway's example from the 80's. that was with 'old' technology.

I can understand that the c4 market isnt there (for ECS business decision) but disagree and am offended by such a comment that c4's are dinosaurs and arent worth mod'ding. (though you said 'doesnt pay to mod').

You should know that you replace the 'old' components with modern ones. There is nothing that can not be upgraded (at some cost).

I will agree with you in terms of cost. Its going to cost less to go fast on a C5/ 6.

I personally view it as a challenge. Honestly, I will be happy with 700 rwhp.

Too much power and I cant even hook it up (even with the best 345 series drag radials) so I lose the race.

Put on some M/T's and then Im a race only machine scared to drive it - lest get caught in a rainstorm somewhere.

Last edited by dizwiz24; 11-29-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve85 View Post
Can you get two 2" pipes in the space allowed for the "center" cylinder exhaust ports on a standard SBC/LT head? (3-5 and 2-4)

I had a set of headers built for 18 heads with spread port exhaust and 1 7/8 was still tight. Probably why a lot mfrs go with a 1 3/4 step to 1 7/8 for a standard SBC head.
I'd have to agree with Steve here - I believe physical limitations for starters, the power range characteristics of the old SBC kind of dictated header size, 1 5/8 were very common and 1 3/4 or 1 3/4 stepped to 1 7/8 satisfied the "multitudes" and still do!!!!
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by fc_soldier View Post
I hear you but you can maybe pick a few 900-1000rwhp LTs but I can fill this page with 1300 rwhp-1500 rwhp. They make 700 rwhp-800rwhp on stock short blocks. LTs cant come to that level.

http://www.dallasperformance.com/services.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-f...hp-record.html


These cars do in a mile what the sledgehammer did in its standing 10 miles run ( or whatever the distance was) C6 231mph.
Sledgehammer is still a killer car no doubt and was street legal.

98 % of the c4s dont need a 2 inch primary.
could you imagine what the sledgehammer could do with modern technology?

I dont want a 1300 to 1500 rwhp 'DYNO QUEEN' car.

I dont want a car that I cant drive on the nice curvy roads.

I dont want to lose a race because I cant get traction.

I bet some of those cars would lose to a 600 rwhp car because they cant get traction. At least not on any tires they can drive around on the street with.

Last edited by dizwiz24; 11-29-2012 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:04 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by WVZR-1 View Post
I'd have to agree with Steve here - I believe physical limitations for starters, the power range characteristics of the old SBC kind of dictated header size, 1 5/8 were very common and 1 3/4 or 1 3/4 stepped to 1 7/8 satisfied the "multitudes" and still do!!!!
OK. then you got me.

(no 2" headers because they wont fit).

I will leave this debate here.
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:21 PM   #13
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If Joe Sherman swears 1-3/4" headers can support 700hp easy thats good enough for me
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:34 PM   #14
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I'm making 738 hp with a 398 SC'ed LT1 with 1 3/4" headers. Its was a tight tight fit in my F body. If you really want 2" you can buy a set of flanges and build your own header kit. I just can't see going through the trouble, if your goal is around 700 hp.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve85 View Post
Can you get two 2" pipes in the space allowed for the "center" cylinder exhaust ports on a standard SBC/LT head? (3-5 and 2-4)

I had a set of headers built for 18 heads with spread port exhaust and 1 7/8 was still tight. Probably why a lot mfrs go with a 1 3/4 step to 1 7/8 for a standard SBC head.
2" pipes will work, but adapters need to bolted onto the head and the exhaust onto the adapters.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:42 PM   #16
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What a lot of these speed shops dont understand is that (in theory) simply bolting on some AFR comp ported heads erases most performance difference between the LTx/ SBC and an LSx (save for the LS7 - which has impressive displacement, titanium rods, etc).

My eventual build is this:

-AFR 195 comp ported heads on a 383 LTx pushing around 10.0:1 compresssion.
-D1 blower pushing around 16 psi boost
-100% methanol injection.
-ARH 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" stepped headers (tsk tsk) and 3" exhaust w/ x-pipe.
-mild cam (ie. 224/232 .580ish lift 114 LSA)

Id like to show equivalent performance as a C6 owner, with the same setup (like an ECS or A&A), on a D1 boosted / mild cam / stock-head LS3 w/ long tube headers running similar boost.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:24 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by fc_soldier View Post
I def see where your coming from but LSx motors at or about 500hp are as common as people walking on two legs. LT1 motors maybe no more than 200-500 cars max putting out enough power to justify that kinda header. (guessing lol) LSx motors around that hp probly like 20,000- 50,000. ANNNYYYY WHOOOOO Basically vendors dont invest money into something with lil market.

Numbers and such are just to bring a point across. I agree it would be nice to have options. But you can always have them built.

Trust me the LSx battle for better motor has been won. LSx are the future and LTx motors died off. Stock LSx motors out perform fully modded LTx.

Just my .02






Just take a look at the C4's running faster then 11 seconds on this forum. There are a total of 26 shown in the sticky, which I used copy and paste to show below.

ET MPH 60ft D.A. CAR MEMBER MODS
8.3 @169 1.30 86 A2 3.73 tensecvet Bammann 565ci, Carrolls Rod & Racecraft Bolt-in rear, glide, some rims & 350 shot
9.34 @153 1.82 87 M6 3.45 AKS Racing 408cid , AFR215s, 248/254 @ 0.050 SR cam, SP intake, MB, D1R, FAST sequential, ZF
9.54 @139 1.28 90 A2 4.56 hookedup 420, carbed, PG
9.80 @135 1.54 92 A4 3.50 rwisk 346ci LS1, Melrose swap headers, 4l60e trans, 3600 stall, forged motor with d1sc procharger@14lbs of boost, Carrolls rod and racecraft straight axle rear with 28" et street radials
9.82 @148 1.54 92 M6 3.73 97AGGIE 383, 250shot direct port, custom cam, AFR 190s, 58mmTB, 36# inj, spec stg5 clutch, LTs, 3in exh
9.88 @137 1.34 93 INSANITY 434, NA, turbo 350, solid rear
9.90 @132 1.42 95 A2 dr.juice 383, 200 shot NO2, Powerglide, 28x10x15 Goodyear slicks
9.91 @140 1.43 86 A4 3.92 REDC4CORVE 434ci, 1050 Holley, CompCams 325, 125 shot, DRs
10.04 @138 1.47 92 A4 3.50 rwisk 346ci, Melrose headers, 4l60e trans, 3200 stall, forged motor with d1sc procharger@14lbs of boost, Carrolls rod and racecraft straight axle rear with 28" et street radials
10.06 @135 1.39 84 A4 ???? vetjack 406 sbc on 175 shot
10.14 @137 1.43 95 M6 3.70 dr.juice 377ci, 9.5:1, 250shot, M&H slicks, AFR/TPIs heads, LT4 intake, LTs, 3" exh, Spec clutch, 4-link 9in, CCW drag pack
10.15 @134 1.37 89 A3 3.73 ski_dwn_it 434ci, 11.5:1, M/T slicks, m2race brodix t1 heads, single plane, 3" ex, 8" TC
10.16 @137 1.42 89 A3 3.73 ski_dwn_it 434ci, 150 shot, 3000 stall. 11.5:1, M/T slicks, m2race brodix t1 heads, single plane, 3" ex, 8" TC
10.27 @131 1.41 85 A4 3.07 CORKVETTE1 434ci, 11.5:1, solid roller, 4200 TC, single plane, monoblade TB, brodix t1 heads
10.33 @139 1.65 85 A4 3.31 SloRvette 398ci 4000 stall, Canfield heads, 242/254 sr cam, Hooker 2151 headers, dual 3" exhaust, XFI, StealthRam, .024" jets in dry fogger, SRA Performance trans 4L60e full manual, Pro Torque 4500 stall non lockup
10.36 @136 1.52 +6800' 91 M6 3.70 tpi421vett 450ci AFR220's, Miniram, Crane 252/260 solid roller, FAST, 200 shot NOS, ZF6, 3.70 9"
10.44 @133 1.53 +4400' 91 M6 3.70 tpi421vett 421 bowtie block, ported miniram2, AFR220s, NOS, comp mech roller cam, monoblade TB
10.53 @131 96 M6 4.10 d48mclain 398ci, stepped headers, ported TFS heads, monoblade TB, sheetmetal intake
10.53 @127 1.42 500' 84 A4 4.33 383vett 406ci, Cola crank, JE Pistons, Crane cam, Holley heads, SuperRam, 4L60e tranny, Strange 12-bolt
10.55 @133 1.55 83 A4 3.54 dan0617 383, 12.2 compression, 230/236 cam, AFR195's, HSR intake, 200 shot, 2800 stall, built 700R4, ET Street radials
10.72 @149 1.62 90 A4 3.33 SloRvette 398ci 4000 stall, Canfield 197's, 242/254 sr, Hooker 2151 headers, dual 3" exhaust, 58 TB, StealthRam, 100 shot dry plate, FAST XFI
10.75 @128 96 M6 4.10 jonecap LT4 hotcam, 4.10's, headers, exhaust, ewp, Centerforce clutch, 150 shot nitrous
10.83 @134 1.82 +1200' 90 M6 3.91 mos90 396 solid roller, slicks, 250shot, mcleod RichS clutch, FAST xfi
10.89 @121 1.49 96 A4 3.75 RichS 396ci, DRs, morgantini heads, ported LT4 heads/int, 3600 TC, CompCam, DRM LTs, 58mm tb
10.90 @126 1.49 +2100' 86 A4 3.33 REDC4CORVE 434ci, MT streets, 1095 barry grant carb, LT4 exh,
10.93 @126 86 3.45 _TWISTED_ 383, TPIS MiniRam w 58mm TPIS TB, N2O, PeteK 700r4 build, D44, Hooker Headers w/ custom 3" exhaust into SpinTech's
10.97 @124 1.51 87 Pete K


Then take out the ones running big blocks, LS series motors etc. And its way less.
The bottom line is business is going to make products for profit. There is not enough market to support C4 developmnet.
You have posted several times about support for a stronger IRS. Well there is alot of support for 2010 camaros and up. ie independent 9in conversions. Several setups for C5-6 vettes. Why, cause they sell for $10,000.00 or so. Now people spending $40,000.00-$100,000.00+ for a car will drop $10,000.00 in a rear. There isnt a handful of C4 people who will do that.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:40 PM   #18
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[QUOTE=dizwiz24;1582445605]What a lot of these speed shops dont understand is that (in theory) simply bolting on some AFR comp ported heads erases most performance difference between the LTx/ SBC and an LSx (save for the LS7 - which has impressive displacement, titanium rods, etc).

Not true at all. Take a LT1 stock block, put a set of AFR heads and a cam that most would consider streetable, with supporting mods, ie, tune headers etc. You will be hard pressed to get much more then 380rwhp. Then you have to deal with a stock crank, pistons, rods, that are not going to last long reving above 6200-6300 rpms.

As said earlier, its easy to get a stock shortblock LS1 with the same street manors of the equivlent LT motor in the 450hp range. Heck, Alvin at pcmforless had one, very mild, and I think it was around 450 rwhp.



My eventual build is this:

-AFR 195 comp ported heads on a 383 LTx pushing around 10.0:1 compresssion.
-D1 blower pushing around 16 psi boost
-100% methanol injection.
-ARH 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" stepped headers (tsk tsk) and 3" exhaust w/ x-pipe.
-mild cam (ie. 224/232 .580ish lift 114 LSA)

Id like to show equivalent performance as a C6 owner, with the same setup (like an ECS or A&A), on a D1 boosted / mild cam / stock-head LS3 w/ long tube headers running similar boost.[/QUOTE]




Ok, here in the drag section today, is something that is simular in build to what you are doing . 08 street car, bored and stroked and a turbo running 20lbs boost. On his first time out with the car he ran 155mph. I dont believe you will ever see that kind of power out of a LT series car.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/drag...-turbo-c6.html

One last proof, go look at the LTx shoot outs and look at the LSx shoot outs. There is a big difference in what they are running.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93 ragtop View Post
The bottom line is business is going to make products for profit. There is not enough market to support C4 developmnet.
You have posted several times about support for a stronger IRS. Well there is alot of support for 2010 camaros and up. ie independent 9in conversions. Several setups for C5-6 vettes. Why, cause they sell for $10,000.00 or so. Now people spending $40,000.00-$100,000.00+ for a car will drop $10,000.00 in a rear. There isnt a handful of C4 people who will do that.
That right there is the main reason you don't see much in the aftermarket for C4's.
I've seen posts where vendors come in announcing some new part (or idea) for the C4.
But as soon as a potential price gets out, everyone jumps all over it saying it is way too expensive.

Bottom line is the C4 is just a cheap car, and very few parts are going to be sold when they cost close to or more than the car might be worth.

If you were a vendor which market would you go after?
You can argue all day long that there is a market for C4 stuff.
But the reality is, there really is a very small group of enthusiasts for most of the stuff.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:58 PM   #20
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It's too bad alot of vendors feel our cars are dinosaurs. Luckily there are still some companies that keep pushing development of parts for our cars.
When you get over 700rwhp, there is a need for 2" headers. I gained almost 3mph with a 2" primary and 3.5" collector over 1.75" 3" collector headers. And they can be made to fit our cars very good. My new 2" primary headers fit better than my old Lingenfelter headers, and the spark plugs are easier to get to than before. But they were hand built headers.

Click the image to open in full size.
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450ci, AFR 235, MamoRam, Crane solid roller, DA corrected to sealevel thru mufflers 9.65@145.79. Pump gas motor.
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