Where can I buy those small cans of R-12 freon. How much?
#41
Team Owner
Is there a rule that says you must check for leaks before you top off or can you just keep topping off? IOW, if I have a leaky system, can the shop keep topping it off every week so it works? IDK about the law on that.
#42
They all leak some more than others. why would you take it to a shop? The r12 replacement work's good and cheap easy fix.
Last edited by antfarmer2; 05-06-2016 at 08:22 PM.
#43
Team Owner
Having done the few replacements, if I have to do it all over again, I'd be doing R12 since it cools better than R134A. As I said, in hot humid weather, R12 will come through better than R134A. Mild weather, probably harder to notice. I suspect it is because the system is optimized for R12 and not the other stuff. If my R134A fails again, I will revert to an R12 system and make sure everything is done right. All O-rings replaced and lines flushed, compressor will be changed since that is probably what is seriously broke and the receiver dryer changed.
As to the "mechanic in a can" stuff, I don't really know if I want to do it in anything more than a car I am selling. For my keeper cars, I never do "cheap and easy" since they have always come back to bite me later for more money, frustration and at the worst possible time.
#45
Perhaps but I like to know what is leaking and then fix it. I usually have dye injected. Even if you do vent to atmosphere, the least you are going to need is pressure gauges. I much prefer the machine.
Having done the few replacements, if I have to do it all over again, I'd be doing R12 since it cools better than R134A. As I said, in hot humid weather, R12 will come through better than R134A. Mild weather, probably harder to notice. I suspect it is because the system is optimized for R12 and not the other stuff. If my R134A fails again, I will revert to an R12 system and make sure everything is done right. All O-rings replaced and lines flushed, compressor will be changed since that is probably what is seriously broke and the receiver dryer changed.
As to the "mechanic in a can" stuff, I don't really know if I want to do it in anything more than a car I am selling. For my keeper cars, I never do "cheap and easy" since they have always come back to bite me later for more money, frustration and at the worst possible time.
Having done the few replacements, if I have to do it all over again, I'd be doing R12 since it cools better than R134A. As I said, in hot humid weather, R12 will come through better than R134A. Mild weather, probably harder to notice. I suspect it is because the system is optimized for R12 and not the other stuff. If my R134A fails again, I will revert to an R12 system and make sure everything is done right. All O-rings replaced and lines flushed, compressor will be changed since that is probably what is seriously broke and the receiver dryer changed.
As to the "mechanic in a can" stuff, I don't really know if I want to do it in anything more than a car I am selling. For my keeper cars, I never do "cheap and easy" since they have always come back to bite me later for more money, frustration and at the worst possible time.
#47
Team Owner
Wouldn't it be more since there is also the labor to pull out each and every O-ring and replace it with the newer stuff and also flush out the lines for the old oil? This is assuming the compressor hasn't dumped stuff all over the world.
#48
Melting Slicks
That is weird. How do you know the old O-rings will be compatible with R134A and for that matter, the oil? I thought I read that while you can get away with it, the oil and O-rings should be changed and when you open the system, the receiver dryer. Sounds like the shop was trying to do it quick and dirty. Last 2 vehicles I did it on, we took all the O-rings off and flushed the lines. I had the shop test it for vacuum and then charge the system. I have not read that much about reputable shops doing it that way.
BTW, what is your definition of "everything is fine"? If by that you mean it cools, I agree. If you mean it cools as well as R12, I really disagree. After we did it on a car, we had like a 12 degree difference between before and after factoring ambient temp in. So the R12 cooled 12 degrees better than the R134A. Supposedly the pressure and condenser difference was an issue.
On a 90+ degree day with humidity, there would be a difference. 70+, hard to notice.
BTW, what is your definition of "everything is fine"? If by that you mean it cools, I agree. If you mean it cools as well as R12, I really disagree. After we did it on a car, we had like a 12 degree difference between before and after factoring ambient temp in. So the R12 cooled 12 degrees better than the R134A. Supposedly the pressure and condenser difference was an issue.
On a 90+ degree day with humidity, there would be a difference. 70+, hard to notice.
Right now I have 7 personal vehicles that have been switched over for 10 years or so and all work fine. Any leaks you had of course before the conversion will be present after the conversion but I haven't had any new leaks come up from the conversion itself. Also I haven't had a compressor fail from the swap either.
#49
Team Owner
Ive done over hundred of the conversion change overs easily. So far no real surprises. The kits convert the oil over by treating whats left in the system and adding a bit of new oil in the process. The orifice change over I usually only have to do on large systems strangely enough. For some reason vans, trucks and buses need the orifice change over to get the most out of the conversion. I haven't had to change the orifice out on cars to keep the same dash vent temperatures.
Right now I have 7 personal vehicles that have been switched over for 10 years or so and all work fine. Any leaks you had of course before the conversion will be present after the conversion but I haven't had any new leaks come up from the conversion itself. Also I haven't had a compressor fail from the swap either.
Right now I have 7 personal vehicles that have been switched over for 10 years or so and all work fine. Any leaks you had of course before the conversion will be present after the conversion but I haven't had any new leaks come up from the conversion itself. Also I haven't had a compressor fail from the swap either.
#52
Melting Slicks
No oring changes or anything else.
I did pull a vacuum on questionable systems and I changed the dryers on the ones that were opened before I got ahold of the vehicle.
But if the system just had r12 in it and was low on charge I drained the freon out and refilled with the kit.
#53
Racer
I think if the car is your pride and joy or a show queen, then go the extra mile and change everything. But you should be able to get away with just changing what comes in the kit. Some kit's come with a new dryer canister also. I never took a temp reading, but it keeps me cool in 90 deg heat. It may take an extra few minutes to cool down the cabin though. My garage may have added the oil charge/Freon can or not. It was done at goodyear. The hassle of trying to find R12 isn't worth it.
#54
Team Owner
Added oil charge/Freon conversion can, added rest of r134a cans enjoyed cold air. That's all.
No oring changes or anything else.
I did pull a vacuum on questionable systems and I changed the dryers on the ones that were opened before I got ahold of the vehicle.
But if the system just had r12 in it and was low on charge I drained the freon out and refilled with the kit.
No oring changes or anything else.
I did pull a vacuum on questionable systems and I changed the dryers on the ones that were opened before I got ahold of the vehicle.
But if the system just had r12 in it and was low on charge I drained the freon out and refilled with the kit.
#55
Team Owner
I think if the car is your pride and joy or a show queen, then go the extra mile and change everything. But you should be able to get away with just changing what comes in the kit. Some kit's come with a new dryer canister also. I never took a temp reading, but it keeps me cool in 90 deg heat. It may take an extra few minutes to cool down the cabin though. My garage may have added the oil charge/Freon can or not. It was done at goodyear. The hassle of trying to find R12 isn't worth it.
I don't know about doing it like this but the last time I checked, it did cool better than nothing but it was about 12 degrees difference in hot humid weather.
#56
Melting Slicks
Oh I bet I know what those pics you saw were from. That was what happens when you put 134a in an r12 system WITHOUT using the kit. Its ugly. The two oils are by nature not compatible and have a very nasty reaction normally. The conversion kit gets around this. But if you just put 134a in without the kit you get what your thinking about.
#57
Melting Slicks
OK I'll bite on this old thread with an equally as old [reference article] considering Summer is upon us!
I have been buying parts from these guys for years and they are fantastic, they can provide you with all the help and parts needed to do the job right!
You don't have to buy a new Compressor! but a drain and refill of the appropriate oil would be a good idea.. I like to disassemble mine and replace the Orings/Shaft seals at this time.. very simple job.
You will notice in the article ACkits mentions " In some cases an upgrade of the condenser may be required to achieve the original performance. In many cases the parallel flow condenser will not be available as a direct replacement. Using a universal parallel flow is an option."
R134 systems run at higher pressures/heat and the older Condensers may not be good enough to properly cool/condense the hot gas's
http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...&threadid=7927
I have been buying parts from these guys for years and they are fantastic, they can provide you with all the help and parts needed to do the job right!
You don't have to buy a new Compressor! but a drain and refill of the appropriate oil would be a good idea.. I like to disassemble mine and replace the Orings/Shaft seals at this time.. very simple job.
You will notice in the article ACkits mentions " In some cases an upgrade of the condenser may be required to achieve the original performance. In many cases the parallel flow condenser will not be available as a direct replacement. Using a universal parallel flow is an option."
R134 systems run at higher pressures/heat and the older Condensers may not be good enough to properly cool/condense the hot gas's
http://www.autoacforum.com/messagevi...&threadid=7927
#58
Team Owner
Oh I bet I know what those pics you saw were from. That was what happens when you put 134a in an r12 system WITHOUT using the kit. Its ugly. The two oils are by nature not compatible and have a very nasty reaction normally. The conversion kit gets around this. But if you just put 134a in without the kit you get what your thinking about.
Again, if this is a car I am getting rid off, I might not go up to town on it. If it is planned to stay for a couple 3 years or more, I'd want to get it right because I know when it fails. At the worst possible time.
#59
Melting Slicks
Exactly but to get the oil out, you'd have to take the compressor out. While it is out, I'd fill it with new oil, spin it around a bit, turn upside down and drain and repeat before I install. After that, I'd change the O-rings if they were used in R12 before unless I know they are changed to R12 and R134A rings. If it is out, I'd, at the very least, change the receiver dryer if not flush the lines.
Again, if this is a car I am getting rid off, I might not go up to town on it. If it is planned to stay for a couple 3 years or more, I'd want to get it right because I know when it fails. At the worst possible time.
Again, if this is a car I am getting rid off, I might not go up to town on it. If it is planned to stay for a couple 3 years or more, I'd want to get it right because I know when it fails. At the worst possible time.
Look at page's 12-13 of this HVACR training document under; Synthetic Lubricants & Polyester oils. it clearly defines the properties of the Lubricants, and why you should never mix/match Freon/oils. it also defines the reason why cooling efficiency is reduced when oil pools inside of the Evaporator, and Condenser. As well as premature Compressor failures do to lack of lubrication. These are the very reasons why, you should never do a Drop in replacement!
http://www.rses.org/assets/serviceap...l/620-1071.pdf
#60
Melting Slicks
So your saying I need to go back in time and undo the conversions I have that have worked for 20 years now and still work fine?
I'll get right on that......
The conversion kits work fine. If you want to replace everything there is no harm in that either but its been proven over and over again its not needed.
I'll get right on that......
The conversion kits work fine. If you want to replace everything there is no harm in that either but its been proven over and over again its not needed.