'92 Theft Deterrent System - Starter Circuit Lockout
02-24-2014, 02:14 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
'92 Theft Deterrent System - Starter Circuit Lockout
I just bought a '92 coupe that is giving me trouble with the Theft Deterrent System. It is causing the Starting Circuit to lockout when doing a battery change. I was told that you can get a power source to connect to the OBD connector to prevent loss of security settings when removing the battery, but when I looked to purchase one, they were only available for OBD-II systems.
Does anyone have another work-around for this issue? Or know the easiest way to reset the system after loss of 12V battery power to the system?
I have had a '95 C4 for ten years now and never have had this issue with that car.
Thanks for the help.
Does anyone have another work-around for this issue? Or know the easiest way to reset the system after loss of 12V battery power to the system?
I have had a '95 C4 for ten years now and never have had this issue with that car.
Thanks for the help.
02-24-2014, 03:29 PM
#2
What happens when you disable the UTD by the lock-cylinder rotation in the door?
As to a bypass, I'd think if you connected a "hot-box" to the battery terminals then remove the battery terminals from the battery in the car while keeping the "hot-box" attached to the cables it would accomplish what you seem to be interested in accomplishing. I've seen it done just using the + cable with the "hot-box' neutral to a ground.
The UTD I believe can only be disabled by I believe the key in the door or the insertion of the correct resistor key into the ignition.
I don't quite maybe understand the issue you're having and if there's more I'd be interested in hearing what exact symptoms or conditions you're able to create.
As to a bypass, I'd think if you connected a "hot-box" to the battery terminals then remove the battery terminals from the battery in the car while keeping the "hot-box" attached to the cables it would accomplish what you seem to be interested in accomplishing. I've seen it done just using the + cable with the "hot-box' neutral to a ground.
The UTD I believe can only be disabled by I believe the key in the door or the insertion of the correct resistor key into the ignition.
I don't quite maybe understand the issue you're having and if there's more I'd be interested in hearing what exact symptoms or conditions you're able to create.
Last edited by WVZR-1; 02-24-2014 at 03:33 PM.
02-24-2014, 06:42 PM
#3
Race Director
I have installed countless batteries and have NEVER had to do a reset. What reset??? I do not know where you heard or read about saving the security setting...because I have NEVER had to do that and have NEVER heard of that.
You have other issues that are seeming to be something that deal with a battery being installed. It can be the security system/theft deterrent system is not being disabled.
The chip in the key is not being recognized by the CCM/BCM.
DUB
You have other issues that are seeming to be something that deal with a battery being installed. It can be the security system/theft deterrent system is not being disabled.
The chip in the key is not being recognized by the CCM/BCM.
DUB
02-24-2014, 09:46 PM
#4
Is there any aftermarket "alarm" installed? or is the car bone stock electronically?
It may simply be a malfunctioning VATS....The system does NOT CARE if you d/c the battery. That has NOTHING to do with any of the theft system...nothing.
2 possibilities...
a bad starter enable relay. Easy enough to jump. You will still enjoy theft protection via injection lock-out.
OR
a malfunctioning VATS module. Try the FSM test process for the theft system. It will show you how to eliminate each piece of the system from key switch to module.
It may simply be a malfunctioning VATS....The system does NOT CARE if you d/c the battery. That has NOTHING to do with any of the theft system...nothing.
2 possibilities...
a bad starter enable relay. Easy enough to jump. You will still enjoy theft protection via injection lock-out.
OR
a malfunctioning VATS module. Try the FSM test process for the theft system. It will show you how to eliminate each piece of the system from key switch to module.
02-24-2014, 10:02 PM
#5
Racer
Thread Starter
OK thank you for the help and ideas.
Where is the Starter Enable Relay located?
The AAA tow truck driver was able to remove the Starter circuit lock-out by doing the following procedure with the driver's door key.
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 5 seconds,
turn right for 2 seconds, pull door handle.
After doing that, the starter was able to turn the engine over.
What are some of the most common causes that the system is having trouble reading the VATS key?
Thanks again for the help.
Where is the Starter Enable Relay located?
The AAA tow truck driver was able to remove the Starter circuit lock-out by doing the following procedure with the driver's door key.
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 5 seconds,
turn right for 2 seconds, pull door handle.
After doing that, the starter was able to turn the engine over.
What are some of the most common causes that the system is having trouble reading the VATS key?
Thanks again for the help.
02-24-2014, 10:20 PM
#6
OK thank you for the help and ideas.
Where is the Starter Enable Relay located?
Under the center display. You really need the FSM to start jumping circuits.
The AAA tow truck driver was able to remove the Starter circuit lock-out by doing the following procedure with the driver's door key.
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 5 seconds,
turn right for 2 seconds, pull door handle.
HUH?
After doing that, the starter was able to turn the engine over. Vats resets after 4-5 minutes. The door lock thing...I dunno.. Did he explain that this was a GM procedure? or was he just screwing around with the door electrical switch that activates or deactivates the forced entry system (different than Vats)??
..
What are some of the most common causes that the system is having trouble reading the VATS key?
Key or ign switch tabs are worn out.
Thanks again for the help.
Where is the Starter Enable Relay located?
Under the center display. You really need the FSM to start jumping circuits.
The AAA tow truck driver was able to remove the Starter circuit lock-out by doing the following procedure with the driver's door key.
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 5 seconds,
turn right for 2 seconds, pull door handle.
HUH?
After doing that, the starter was able to turn the engine over. Vats resets after 4-5 minutes. The door lock thing...I dunno.. Did he explain that this was a GM procedure? or was he just screwing around with the door electrical switch that activates or deactivates the forced entry system (different than Vats)??
..
What are some of the most common causes that the system is having trouble reading the VATS key?
Key or ign switch tabs are worn out.
Thanks again for the help.
02-25-2014, 01:37 AM
#7
The AAA tow truck driver was able to remove the Starter circuit lock-out by doing the following procedure with the driver's door key.
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 5 seconds,
turn right for 2 seconds, pull door handle.
After doing that, the starter was able to turn the engine over.
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 3 seconds,
turn left for 3 seconds, turn up for 5 seconds,
turn right for 2 seconds, pull door handle.
After doing that, the starter was able to turn the engine over.
As observed above the starter disable is purely a function of VATS which is activated by the CCM reading the correct key in the Ign
from a earlier C4 but similar circuitry controlling the enable relay
Last edited by vetteoz; 02-25-2014 at 01:42 AM.
02-25-2014, 05:54 AM
#9
Racer
Thread Starter
The tow driver said it was common procedure he has used on many GM vehicles with a Theft Deterrent Systems. I'm not sure if he was BS'ing me or not, but it appeared to work.
Like I said, I have had a '95 C4 convertible now for 10 years and have never had any of this Starter Circuit lock-out problem.
I only paid $1500 for this '92 coupe on Sunday and had it towed home. This Starter Circuit lock-out issue was the main reason the seller was willing to let it go cheap.
Like I said, I have had a '95 C4 convertible now for 10 years and have never had any of this Starter Circuit lock-out problem.
I only paid $1500 for this '92 coupe on Sunday and had it towed home. This Starter Circuit lock-out issue was the main reason the seller was willing to let it go cheap.
02-25-2014, 07:37 AM
#10
I'm thinking someone changed the key cylinder or complete steering column and the current key is not a match with the BCM or perhaps someone installed a used BCM causing the same mismatch. A GM dealer or locksmith with a VATS Interrogator may be able to determine what is wrong, good luck.
02-25-2014, 11:39 AM
#11
The tow driver said it was common procedure he has used on many GM vehicles with a Theft Deterrent Systems. I'm not sure if he was BS'ing me or not, but it appeared to work.
Like I said, I have had a '95 C4 convertible now for 10 years and have never had any of this Starter Circuit lock-out problem.
I only paid $1500 for this '92 coupe on Sunday and had it towed home. This Starter Circuit lock-out issue was the main reason the seller was willing to let it go cheap.
Like I said, I have had a '95 C4 convertible now for 10 years and have never had any of this Starter Circuit lock-out problem.
I only paid $1500 for this '92 coupe on Sunday and had it towed home. This Starter Circuit lock-out issue was the main reason the seller was willing to let it go cheap.
good deal!
this is a simple problem to solve !
if you are wanting to get it running right NOW and figure out the details later, like TT suggest, a mismatch key or bcm or worn parts, buy a VATS bypass module for $15 and install that, and you can start it and then find the things causing the problem. Look on FleaBay and while you are there, get the FSM for that yr as well. That will be the best $115 you ever spent...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-VATS-or-PASSkey-II-Bypass-Module-For-LS1-and-LT1-/281179660936?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item41779d2288&vxp=mtr
This is for ANY C4 theft system....GM VATS regardless of its changing name and description.
Last edited by leesvet; 02-25-2014 at 12:02 PM.
02-25-2014, 12:22 PM
#12
OP - What you mentioned in your 1st post and what it seemed you were attempting to accomplish seem maybe to be just a little different but assuming you maybe had just a "no crank" situation it might be wise to start with some very basic diagnostics and this post by a fellow the other day would be an appropriate place to start and it seems he "understood" what he was doing so a person paying attention to his post should be able to follow what he did.
In '91 or '92 the starter enable system was changed a little so his '93 is similar to your '92. He thought he needed to simply do a VATS bypass like has been suggested to you but I believe I'd research a bit more before just stabbing at it.
The VATS Interrogator would certainly diagnose maybe a VATS issue of sorts and the car could be scanned to see if the VIN in the BCM/CCM is a match to the car or not.
Here's his post and there's certainly issues with the connectors at the GM connectors at the ignition switch through many years of production.
I don't know that the timing of the AAA guy was of any significance but maybe just the sequencing of OFF, ON, OFF, ON makes sense to "wake-up" a lazy or poor contact in the lock cylinder switch. That is NOT unheard of.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1586141906-post1.html
In '91 or '92 the starter enable system was changed a little so his '93 is similar to your '92. He thought he needed to simply do a VATS bypass like has been suggested to you but I believe I'd research a bit more before just stabbing at it.
The VATS Interrogator would certainly diagnose maybe a VATS issue of sorts and the car could be scanned to see if the VIN in the BCM/CCM is a match to the car or not.
Here's his post and there's certainly issues with the connectors at the GM connectors at the ignition switch through many years of production.
I don't know that the timing of the AAA guy was of any significance but maybe just the sequencing of OFF, ON, OFF, ON makes sense to "wake-up" a lazy or poor contact in the lock cylinder switch. That is NOT unheard of.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1586141906-post1.html
02-25-2014, 04:18 PM
#13
I disconnect the battery on my 92 frequently as well. Never have to reset anything.
02-25-2014, 05:54 PM
#14
Race Director
There are two anti-theft systems in the car.
One requires the use of the door key ( or remote) to dis-arm it when it has been set and the door closed.
The other...obviously is the VATS.
If when you open your door and the "SECURITY" light is flashing...the system is dis-armed. When you lock the door using the power door lock switch...the "SECURITY" light will stay lit and NOT FLASH. When the door is shut...the system is armed and it requires the door key to dis-arm it...unless you have the remote. Normally if the door is opened and the system can not be dis-armed due to the switch located at the backside of the door lock cylinder is not working correctly...I would be suspect that the wiring to the horn has been messed with and not able to blow as designed. This system does also make it so you can not crank the engine....unless I am twisting up year models and getting myself confused...but I think I am correct on this.
I honestly can not remember that if you put the correct key in the column and tried to crank it...that the CCM would recognize that it is OK due to the correct key and dis-arm the theft deterrent system.
DUB
One requires the use of the door key ( or remote) to dis-arm it when it has been set and the door closed.
The other...obviously is the VATS.
If when you open your door and the "SECURITY" light is flashing...the system is dis-armed. When you lock the door using the power door lock switch...the "SECURITY" light will stay lit and NOT FLASH. When the door is shut...the system is armed and it requires the door key to dis-arm it...unless you have the remote. Normally if the door is opened and the system can not be dis-armed due to the switch located at the backside of the door lock cylinder is not working correctly...I would be suspect that the wiring to the horn has been messed with and not able to blow as designed. This system does also make it so you can not crank the engine....unless I am twisting up year models and getting myself confused...but I think I am correct on this.
I honestly can not remember that if you put the correct key in the column and tried to crank it...that the CCM would recognize that it is OK due to the correct key and dis-arm the theft deterrent system.
DUB
02-25-2014, 08:17 PM
#15
Le Mans Master
Wow, what a thread so far. I agree with just about all that was said. I too have never heard of such a lockout. Where did the tow truck driver get that info from, my goodness.
Who said and confirmed it's a Theft Deterrent System problem. It's the seller of the car and I know nothing of their skill level. This might be taking the thread off in a wrong direction.
Well after reading this I'm thinking the starter in just plain bad. Probably the solenoid is sticking and the car just won't start every time. Pretty common problem.
What do ya think.
Who said and confirmed it's a Theft Deterrent System problem. It's the seller of the car and I know nothing of their skill level. This might be taking the thread off in a wrong direction.
Well after reading this I'm thinking the starter in just plain bad. Probably the solenoid is sticking and the car just won't start every time. Pretty common problem.
What do ya think.
02-25-2014, 09:00 PM
#16
When we had problems with vats, there is a time limit on reset. I think its like 10 minutes I dont recall exactly. It stranded us 3 times, we waited and eventually it started. Then I installed resitor in wire at bottom of colum, I plan on new key switch eventually, but there is a thread on here about this bypass.
02-25-2014, 09:02 PM
#17
Obvious way would be to hot wire the starter and confirm it works
If it does , then work back to the Ign switch on the starter circuit wiring to identify were the power loss occurs
02-25-2014, 10:05 PM
#19
[QUOTE=DUB;1586261862]There are two anti-theft systems in the car.
One requires the use of the door key ( or remote) to dis-arm it when it has been set and the door closed.
The other...[B]obviously is the VATS.
Thing is,
that the "Forced Entry Alarm System" is totally unrelated to VATS (Vehicle Anti-Theft System)
Although the 2 systems are there to A: sound the alarm (horns) if someone breaks in, B: to disable the starter and fuel injection so the car cannot be driven away, they are NOT connected in any way. There is NO interface between VATS and FEAS. Seems like that is a should be, and IMO, it really should be, but GM did not see it that way for whatever reason...
So, the key in the door and THAT alarm has nothing to do with the starter enable or "lock-out" as its been called. The AAA tow driver came up with that "process" by pulling it straight outta his a$$
Look it up in the FSM....no wire between the two. The ONLY thing in common is the ground.
Agreed that checking the obvious is the place to start,(er) but I think its safe to assume the guy that sold the car CHEAP due to this "no crank" issue probably checked and/or replaced the starter and threw in the towel when that did not yield results....so he sold cheap to the new owner that's wise enough to come here to explore and learn the wonderful and mysterious world of VATS....
IMO
One requires the use of the door key ( or remote) to dis-arm it when it has been set and the door closed.
The other...[B]obviously is the VATS.
Thing is,
that the "Forced Entry Alarm System" is totally unrelated to VATS (Vehicle Anti-Theft System)
Although the 2 systems are there to A: sound the alarm (horns) if someone breaks in, B: to disable the starter and fuel injection so the car cannot be driven away, they are NOT connected in any way. There is NO interface between VATS and FEAS. Seems like that is a should be, and IMO, it really should be, but GM did not see it that way for whatever reason...
So, the key in the door and THAT alarm has nothing to do with the starter enable or "lock-out" as its been called. The AAA tow driver came up with that "process" by pulling it straight outta his a$$
Look it up in the FSM....no wire between the two. The ONLY thing in common is the ground.
Agreed that checking the obvious is the place to start,(er) but I think its safe to assume the guy that sold the car CHEAP due to this "no crank" issue probably checked and/or replaced the starter and threw in the towel when that did not yield results....so he sold cheap to the new owner that's wise enough to come here to explore and learn the wonderful and mysterious world of VATS....
IMO
Last edited by leesvet; 02-25-2014 at 10:12 PM.
02-26-2014, 06:34 AM
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
I probably should give a little more background on this car.
My girlfriend was looking for an 'affordable' Corvette coupe to buy, so I suggested we look for a '92-'96 LT1 model. I found several in her price range on craigslist, including the red '92 I bought last Sunday, which was priced at $3000 OBO. After talking to the seller, she decided it needed a little more work than she was interested in, and she found a very nice '92 Black Rose Metallic coupe the she bought for a good price.
But I thought the red '92 was priced well, so I pursued it. The guy was hard to get a hold of, but I finally got a chance to look at it several weekends ago. When I went to look at it, it would not start due to what appeared to be a weak battery. It looked like it had been sitting for quite a while, with the left front tire flat. I asked the seller when it had last started, and he said it had been several weeks ago when the last person came over to look at it. The seller told me he would charge up the battery and get back to me when it was charged. Once again I had some trouble getting a hold of the seller, but he finally got back to me and said he was convinced now that the starter was bad. I was not really convinced the starter was bad, but I knew I had a spare LT1 starter boxed in my garage, left over from other C4s I have owned. I told him that I would bring it over on Sunday and install it, to get the car running. Before I brought my starter over I had it bench tested at O'Reilly A/P. My spare starter tested good. The seller thought that using my starter to get it running would be a good idea.
On Sunday I went over and pulled the starter off the red '92 and installed my starter. With my starter installed, we did not get any starter action or starter solenoid sound, etc. I then brought his starter up to have it tested, and it tested good also. When I got back, the seller had the car running after jumping the battery that was in the car. The engine sounded good, and all the gauges appeared to be in the normal ranges. I then wanted to take it for a test drive, but had to take the car off the jackstands I had under it for the starter install. So we turned the engine off while I was lowering the car. Once the car was down on the ground, it would not start again. No starter action at all, but it did have lights, etc. We decided we should try a known good battery out of the seller’s Yukon, but we could not get the starting circuit to operate the starter with that battery. Now I realize that the horn was never working during the trouble with the starter lock-out situation. Also, the electric door locks were not working, so I believe that circuit has trouble. Maybe a fuse or relay? The seller therefore was always trying to unlock the system with the inside driver’s door manual door lock. Also, the few times we did get the starter to turn the engine over, was after the car had sat for a while, without us doing anything to it. Including the time the AAA driver did his procedure to it, and then the starter turned the car over again, after I bought it and the weak battery was back in the car and not strong enough to start it. Therefore, the system may have had time to sit long enough to reset.
My girlfriend was looking for an 'affordable' Corvette coupe to buy, so I suggested we look for a '92-'96 LT1 model. I found several in her price range on craigslist, including the red '92 I bought last Sunday, which was priced at $3000 OBO. After talking to the seller, she decided it needed a little more work than she was interested in, and she found a very nice '92 Black Rose Metallic coupe the she bought for a good price.
But I thought the red '92 was priced well, so I pursued it. The guy was hard to get a hold of, but I finally got a chance to look at it several weekends ago. When I went to look at it, it would not start due to what appeared to be a weak battery. It looked like it had been sitting for quite a while, with the left front tire flat. I asked the seller when it had last started, and he said it had been several weeks ago when the last person came over to look at it. The seller told me he would charge up the battery and get back to me when it was charged. Once again I had some trouble getting a hold of the seller, but he finally got back to me and said he was convinced now that the starter was bad. I was not really convinced the starter was bad, but I knew I had a spare LT1 starter boxed in my garage, left over from other C4s I have owned. I told him that I would bring it over on Sunday and install it, to get the car running. Before I brought my starter over I had it bench tested at O'Reilly A/P. My spare starter tested good. The seller thought that using my starter to get it running would be a good idea.
On Sunday I went over and pulled the starter off the red '92 and installed my starter. With my starter installed, we did not get any starter action or starter solenoid sound, etc. I then brought his starter up to have it tested, and it tested good also. When I got back, the seller had the car running after jumping the battery that was in the car. The engine sounded good, and all the gauges appeared to be in the normal ranges. I then wanted to take it for a test drive, but had to take the car off the jackstands I had under it for the starter install. So we turned the engine off while I was lowering the car. Once the car was down on the ground, it would not start again. No starter action at all, but it did have lights, etc. We decided we should try a known good battery out of the seller’s Yukon, but we could not get the starting circuit to operate the starter with that battery. Now I realize that the horn was never working during the trouble with the starter lock-out situation. Also, the electric door locks were not working, so I believe that circuit has trouble. Maybe a fuse or relay? The seller therefore was always trying to unlock the system with the inside driver’s door manual door lock. Also, the few times we did get the starter to turn the engine over, was after the car had sat for a while, without us doing anything to it. Including the time the AAA driver did his procedure to it, and then the starter turned the car over again, after I bought it and the weak battery was back in the car and not strong enough to start it. Therefore, the system may have had time to sit long enough to reset.
Last edited by corvette1987coupe; 02-26-2014 at 10:21 AM.