cv67

Im in Valencia, many hrs south of you

If youre not going to turn it over 5500 you can use a cast crank, cast or hypereutectic piston assy. Maybe upgrade rod bolts, stock oil pump etc
Get a good internal balance job, decent head put it together.It will last just fine.
We all like to have the dream list of nice parts but honestly its not needed for the avg st machine.
Yrs ago put together a 383 for a buddys Nova, cheapest Speed-O-Motive 2 bolt main shortblock we could get, 195 afr eliminators when they first came out, a 268 flat tappet (may have been an old high energy) cam headers etc.
He was ultra cheap but did spring to have the balance job double checked.
Car was a friggin beast, couldnt break it. Destroyed his sons supercharged H/C stang with all the goodies wasnt even a race. You dont have to spend money to go fast....to a point then it all changes and gets pricy quick.

C4ProjectCar

Thanks TA, Your thread is a great resource.
Any chance you remember what the cost to have the short block assembled was?

You know something funny? I actually watched the video of your car a while back to see what the LPE 219 cam sounded like.

C4ProjectCar

Hmm, for some reason I was thinking you were up north. Guess not.
Thanks for the advice. Do you think I could just port my current heads instead of buying new ones?
How much does an internal balance job cost? If a kit was listed as balanced on Summit, then I wouldn't need to get it internally balanced, right?
Here's the kit in question: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/es...l030/overview/

TA

I paid $1800 for the assembled 383 short block. I don't recall all the exact parts as its been awhile, but if you check out the first post of my build thread you'll see a link to WW7's 383 build. Mine was identical to his and he detailed all the parts he used. I didn't go with anything forged since I knew I was staying with a TPI style intake and it wouldn't be spinning a ton of RPM. That being said, its been in the high 11s every time I've had it at the track. It's not setting the world on fire, but it's turning petty respectable times for a TPI car.

C4ProjectCar

I opened that link but haven't read it yet. I'll check it out.
11s is pretty good for TPI! That must be fun on the street.

cv67

The heads/valves even ported will be a little undersized for the 383 but will still pick up power none the less. Not hard to get a quick 20 cfm
Gotta know where and how to port though most the web info you come across is wrong.
Getting the balance rechecked is worth it imo nothing worse than screwing something together going through all the hassle of installing only to find a vibration somewhere. Doesnt cost much maybe 150ish +- depending where you go. You dont NEED to if its been balanced just one of those things that bugs me not knowing if its perfect or not.

C4ProjectCar

I'll plan to port my stock heads and then upgrade at some point down the road. David Vizard's book has some info in it on how to port SBC heads that I can use as a resource.
Because of my tight budget, I'll put it together without balancing and then I can pull it back apart and have it balanced if I have a problem. Every dollar counts for me, otherwise that sounds like a smart thing to do.

cv67

The kit you had in the link showed unbalanced

You have a 58cc head figure the piston is down in the bore .025 or so
Head gasket .028 or?? Need to figure the piston youll need probably a dished (now to figure the cc of the dish.. Wallace Caculators has some accurate programs to figure where you want to be probably no more than 10.5:1 with a smallish cam. (before ordering your kit)

CNCmotorsports and Ohio crank, Scat also have some reasonably priced kits.

C4ProjectCar

Yeah, I realized that. I'll find one that's balanced.
Thanks for the info on compression and piston type. I'll look into that.

cv67

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm


http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

C4ProjectCar

Well, as I'm adding up the costs this is seeming like it's going to cost more than I want to spend. I'm not ready to give it up entirely, but chances are I'll end up doing something cheaper.
Stroker kit - $770
Harmonic damper - $60
Head bolts - $80
Rod bolts - $80
Camshaft - $200
Valve springs - $160
Valve seals - $22
Valve guides - $48
Machining work - $550 (block work and flywheel balancing)
Tune - $350

Total - $2320

My initial budget was $1000, then I increased it to $1500, then again to $2000. I really can't increase it any more.

At max, I expect I would gain about 40 HP and lb-ft. of torque. That comes out to about $60/ea.

I realize I might be able to get away with not replacing the valve springs, seals, and guides, but I feel like that would be cutting a corner so I don't want to do that.
One area where I could save money is tuning it myself, but I'm not entirely sure what would be involved as I'm just starting to look into that. If I could tune it myself for a relatively low cost, then stroking the engine would still be on the table.

With that said, I'm exploring my other options. Right now I'm thinking of doing new runners, a new camshaft, new valve springs, seals, and guides, and adding 1.6 roller rockers as well as replacing the head and rod bolts and the cam bearings. I'd have to either have it tuned or do so myself. This is entirely exploratory, and I'm still researching it.
This option would only cost about $1700 ($1350 or so if I tune it myself), and would only need to increase HP/torque by about 28 each to match the cost-effectiveness of stroking it, which I believe is fairly feasible.
Even if I go with this, I'm not ditching my plan of stroking it. I'll just do it a little down the road (no pun intended) instead of now.

What are your thoughts on my analysis or cost projections?

MJFuss

-Buy a set of AFR heads for $1500.

-Sell your stock heads for $300

-Toss in some gaskets and bolts for another $200

You'll gain something close to the 40hp/tq you were expecting from the stroker kit, and you'll have a world-class set of heads that will help you to make crazy power when you finally have the funds to do a stroker. Total cost: $1400.

I would definitely not spend money reworking the stock heads if you're planning to go to a stroker somewhere down the road. The aftermarket heads are so much better it's crazy to mess with the stock heads unless you're really stuck with them for some reason.

Anyway, heads are where you want to spend your money. Go cheap elsewhere, but not on heads.

If you do some intake manifold porting while it's off, don't be surprised if the AFR heads swap gives you another 40-50 hp/tq. They are just that much better than your stock heads.

C4ProjectCar

Thanks for the advice. I considered doing that (although I had no idea stock heads are worth so much) but $1400-1500 seemed like a ton for a single part. Although I guess if the gains are that big... By the way, which specific AFR heads would you recommend? Keep in mind I probably will stroke it some time in the future. Also, I'm guessing it probably wouldn't be worth it to get the Vortec heads and get a new intake base?

Don't new heads affect compression ratio?

MJFuss

A good set of heads is worth the money. They aren't just a part, they are the part.

AFR Street Eliminator 195, angle plug, 64cc chambers. They'll work fine on a 350, and will be big enough for a stroker. You'll lose some compression, though you could probably get some of that back with a thiner head gasket.

Even with the loss of compression you'll gain a bunch of power, and the lower compression will allow you to run cheaper, lower-octane fuel until your rebuild, and the slightly larger chambers will be perfect for when you go stroker.

A TPI stroker with AFR heads would be an insane torque monster, by the way. I wouldn't be surprised to see well over 500 pound feet with the right cam.

I sold my TPI heads, needing a rebuild, for $300. Quickly.

Vortec heads are great for the money, but they're heavy, limited in lift, and will never come close to AFR flow or port velocity.

Better heads get more power out of whatever setup you have.

C4ProjectCar

As I think about it more, I don't want to bank on stroking it in the future. Honestly, I probably won't have the cash to drop $2500 at once on it for at least 6-7 years. Even then, I'll probably do things like roller rockers, new intake, etc. first. My reason for wanting to stroke it now was I wanted the experience, but I'm going to get the same experience just by rebuilding it. Stroking it is definitely going on the back burner.
Nonetheless, I appreciate the advice of all of those that helped me with my plans to stroke it and I hope this thread is a useful resource for others in the future.

With that said, would the 180cc heads be better?
I'd like to run 91 octane, so should I get a bit smaller chamber volume?

When I mentioned Vortec heads, I was talking about the AFR Vortecs, not the GM ones:
http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=24_117
Does what you said apply to those?

Wow, 500 lb-ft. is crazy. Speaking of cams, is there one you would recommend?

EDIT: I found a kit for a good price with valve springs, retainers, and seals, a timing chain, and a CC503 cam. I know the CC503 is for the LT1, but could it work well in an L98?

MJFuss

You'll have to pay extra to get a chamber volume of less than 65cc from the AFR heads. They have to mill the heads down. Maybe $300.

I don't know about the AFR vortec heads. Maybe someone has run them under a tpi. They're not cheaper than the Street Eliminators anyway.

180cc would work fine, but you'd probably lose nothing with 195s. I wouldn't go bigger than 195s. The Street Eliminators are a very good design when it comes to high flow at lower lift and high port velocity. You can get away with larger intake ports and lose just about nothing.

The compression loss of a larger combustion chamber could be mostly offset with thinner head gaskets on your 350. I wouldn't go with chambers smaller than 65cc unless you're absolutely positive you'll never do a stroker motor. Trick Flow sells heads with 58cc chambers, I believe, if you really want to go that route.

You really can't pick a cam until you know for certain what heads you're going to use.

Various LT1 cams work well for L98 motors.

C4ProjectCar

Now that I got it smogged, I'm able to turn my attention back to this thread.

After boiling down the costs, stroking it is going to be cheaper than replacing the heads (although I do appreciate your advice concerning heads, MJFuss). I'll be rebuilding the engine, so I'll be replacing a lot of the parts to stroke it anyway.
Guess I've gone full-circle.

Right now I'm trying to figure out the specifics, namely the compression ratio. I'm trying to make the compression as high as I can with 91 octane gas.

I know that dynamic compression ratio is the important number, and it sounds like 8.5:1 is the maximum on pump gas, right? I'll be running ported 113 aluminum heads.

There are a couple different ways to get there, it seems. I could either use a thick head gasket and mildly dished pistons or I could use a thin head gasket and deeper-dished pistons. I guess my question is: is a smaller quench distance worth the trade-off of deeper piston dishes?

mtwoolford

Looking for a good machine shop in Sacramento? my experience with Rex Hutchinson was outstanding; talk to them first b4 you start spending money. In my case I built a 86 350 with the factory roller cam into a clone of the first generation 345 hp crate engine; they balanced the whole lower end including the flywheel and I assembled the engine myself; it ran fabulously.

I used the factory pistons for the crate engine; a very nice piece, flat top two valve reliefs...but also VERY expensive...in retrospect aftermarket pistons would have been a wiser choice;

The factory first generation crate engine used a cam with a ton of overlap; since I reused the stock heads that had 58 cc chambers the compression ratio worked out to 10.5 to 1 with a thin head gasket, but I had no "pinging" or detonation issues and the whole thing passed smog easily in a 1975 carburated car;

One secret to keeping costs down on this build was reusing the stock crank, which thankfully did not need machining beyond having the journals polished; Rex cross drilled the crank at no charge; there was some minimal wear on a couple journals; I mixed and matched standard and 0.001 inch oversize bearings to maintain the proper clearances;

there was no use in reusing or having the stock rods rebuilt; summit provided a set of "pink" rods at a very reasonable cost;

Another secret to keeping costs down was reusing the block; if you can still see the factory hone marks on the cylinder walls, it probably doesn't need to be bored, but just having the glaze busted, which you can do yourself; and that's what I did.

three places I splurged (other than the pistons) was a fluid damper harmonic balancer ; a double "true" roller timing chain; and a set of Total Seal gapless piston rings;

So what else was there? paid to have the cam bearings replaced; valve job and new springs for the heads; a gasket set; new oil pump; new Brass freeze plugs; cleaned the block myself;

there were a few other things, stud kits for the mains and heads, windage tray, AFR rev kit, but nothing needed for a basic build.

Good luck

MJFuss

You can run higher compression on LT motors because of the reverse cooling. 12:1 on a Gen 1 is pretty high for 91 octane.

Quench is going to be a problem. No way around it; you're building a stoker under heads with 58cc chambers. Maybe there's a specific piston that will do it, with no dish in the quench area but sufficient dish under the valves. Might be expensive.

cv67

Those AFR vortec heads look real nice

You have a TPI car no? Id go wiht the 180s if youre keeping it a 350 and using stock manifolds. Not so sure they will cover a 195 exh port imo wont lose an ounce of power over the 195 for the application. Car will pull good with a smallish cam and worked over TPI system. Youd be surprised.