C4ProjectCar

Anyone know the torque specs for the bolts on the EGR pipe? For some reason the FSM fails to give the specs, and I can't find them online.

C4ProjectCar

Well, I just "started" it. First it wouldn't start, then after I removed the Ostrich and reinstalled the stock memcal (suspecting I might have installed the Ostrich incorrectly) it puffed a few times, and then when I gave it some throttle it caught.

It ran very poorly though. It was missing badly, barely stumbling along, and would die the second I let off the throttle. It also smelled to be very rich, and required advancing the distributor cap quite a bit to run*. After running it for about 30 seconds, I noticed something even less enthusing: a fairly loud metallic knocking was coming from what sounded like the front of the intake base at lower RPMs (initially I had it at about 1,000 to keep it running, but when I dropped it down to 700 or so the sound became noticeable). Being new to working on cars, I have no idea what actual detonation sounds like, but I don't think it was detonation, which I expect would have sounded like it was far less localized. Another thought that entered my mind was that I installed the camshaft wrong and that the sound was valves hitting pistons, but I feel like lining up the dots on the cam and crankshaft gears was fairly idiot-proof.

* It did require advancing the distributor quite advanced of what I had guessed it should be at to run, I think. However, I didn't realize just how much the timing was advanced. My dad, who was watching the timing as I cranked it, kept telling me it was very retarded, so I had him keep advancing the distributor. Now, upon talking to him, I have found out that it turns out it was quite advanced, about 25 degrees. He has set timing before and he knew the balancer turned clockwise, but somehow he managed to read it backward and not realize that the pointer and the TDC mark were moving apart as he advanced the timing.

At the end, I reinstalled the Ostrich, suspecting the tune might be an issue, and it "puffed" a few times but then the battery died. Edit: Tried once the battery charged, and no luck. It did not come with any sort of manual and I am having difficulty finding any documentation on it, but I tried the toggle switches on the side in all possible configurations. Since the G1 adapter keeps the original memcal attached, I'd think any issues with the Ostrich would lead to the ECM defaulting to "limp home mode" on the memcal like it is supposed to.

I'm really hoping running it this far advanced didn't hurt anything. Any ideas what the problem(s) could be, if the timing wasn't the issue?

Edit: If relevant, oil pressure is good. When cranking cold it was ~60 PSI.

cardo0

Well i kinda assumed u had something for a tune already using the "ostrich" when i saw you post its cable. Yea it reads more like it has become an experiment.

So lets talk initial timing. I think we talked 'bout verifying TDC with the timing tab and u need to use your timing tab to set the distributor rotor at #1 plug wire while the dampner mark is at 10 degrees BTDC on the timing tab - rotate the motor by hand for this. This should get u to run safely where the motor cant hurt its self.

If u dont have a tune ready then the stock tune will have to get u started - install the stock memcal that is if it did work before. Do u know this? Just get the motor rpm up to 2,000rpm and stay there where it cant hurt anything - dont go back to idle and dont go above 2500rpm. Once at 2000 u can look at any leak issues or problems (smoke, knocks) then u can do a scan and look timing and fueling.

Only u can sort out the tune whether u get a new mail order chip or use the ostrich but running at 2000rpm should allow to run the motor safely while observing it for problems.

As for the knock the only items at the front of the engine would be a mech fuel pump rod left inside or a water pump or a lifter and worse case a rod - maybe an accessory.
U need stethoscope to locate the noise and u can try removing the accessory belt in case it was an accessory. But a conservative check would be to remove the mech fuel pump cover before u start it again and see if something was left in there - use a flashlight and a mirror to look at the cam lope for the mech fuel pump.

Sorry i dont know anything 'bout the "ostrich" or its setup. BTW i hope my warning 'bout start up problems prepared u some for this.

C4ProjectCar

To clarify, I do have an initial bin based off of my engine parameters that someone more experienced than myself created. I just disconnected the Ostrich to eliminate a possible variable.

And when I started, I did have the distributor so that the rotor was approximately at the #1 tower.

What is the purpose of keeping it at higher RPMs? I know for flat tappet cams you need it that high so the cam stays lubricated from oil splash, but I didn't realize you had to do that with a roller.

This engine was built by a machine shop, so I doubt there's a fuel pump rod inside it. But it's good to know that's a possibility.
What would be wrong with a rod to cause knocking?
Is it possible that the noise is a bent valve hitting the top of the piston? And do you rule out detonation?

Once I'm able to get it running with the Ostrich, I plan to remove the serpentine and run it for a few seconds to eliminate accessories.

Yeah, I kind of expected to have issues like this, but I guess I was hoping I wouldn't.


Also, if I am cranking it and it isn't starting, should I smell fuel coming out of the exhaust if the injectors are firing?

mtwoolford

the metallic knocking, I really don't know; it could be nothing more than lifters in need of adjustment; if it persists, further investigation is warranted; or it could be...just speculation here, the wrong, deep reach plug installed in a aftermarket head designed for a shorter reach plug.

I know you don't want to hear this now, but before the heads went on, did you verify that the #1 piston at top dead center coincided with the balancer / timing pointer reading top Dead Center also ?

Chevy, and especially aftermarket, makes various timing pointers / balancers combos, and they don't necessarily interchange, OR the balancer outer hub (with timing marks) have been known to shift around from their original location on the inner balancer hub, so that's another possible source of error.

pull the plug on the number one cylinder, and with something rigid, but soft, sticking into the combustion chamber verify TDC and compare it with the timing marks; then go from there.

p.s. you wouldn't be the first, or last, to get a couple of plug wires installed on the wrong plugs.

p.s.s. congrats on the oil pressure; that's where it should be (in my humble, and perhaps deluded, opinion).

C4ProjectCar

Uh oh. The short/long reach spark plug thing could be an issue. Gonna pull a few plugs right away to see if I have it wrong. Crap.

I didn't set the balancer before the heads went on, but I used a piston stop to adjust the pointer before I installed the engine. I'm nearly certain I have it within 1/2*.
However, when my dad and I did this, things got really confusing (long story) and I suspected I may have hit the piston stop with the valve. I never confirmed for certain that I didn't, but upon visual inspection through the spark plug hole and through the exhaust port, the valve looked perfectly fine. No light was able to get through the edges of the valve when it was closed. Nonetheless, the fact that the knocking is coming from right around cylinder #1 makes me wonder if we somehow did bend the valve.

It's a brand new balancer, so I doubt that the outer hub shifted (or are you saying that even new balancers are known to do this?). But, it's good to know that's a possibility.

We were very careful and thorough to get the right wires on the right plugs. But, I've been careful before and screwed it up. So I'll double check.

Yay, glad to know something went right!


Thanks for helping me out, guys.

Edit: I can breathe again. Just pulled the #1 plug, and it looks fine to me. Anything you can tell me by looking at it? (other than the fact that my dad was a little too judicious with the anti-seize )

cardo0

Ya know ive read the piston stop can get smacked by the vlvs on high lift cams when testing TDC but i wasnt expecting that on your more street sized cam.


What is the purpose of keeping it at higher RPMs? I know for flat tappet cams you need it that high so the cam stays lubricated from oil splash, but I didn't realize you had to do that with a roller.

Well the engine tends to stall and die at low rpm w/wrong timing and fueling and maybe difficult to keep it running. 2000rpm is not high but difficult to make it detonate there from too lean or to much adv.


And when I started, I did have the distributor so that the rotor was approximately at the #1 tower.

Yes but u still are not sure what initial is in degrees. If the rotor is pointer at #1 wire post and the dampner is lined up at 10* BTDC u have a much better idea that its very close to 10*. With just a pointer u may need to measure your dampner and do the geomotry/math to make a 10* BTDC mark.


What would be wrong with a rod to cause knocking?

I dont think its a rod since u went the mile to check clearances.


Is it possible that the noise is a bent valve hitting the top of the piston? And do you rule out detonation?

Only the vlv in the front of motor? Not likely unless something was left/fell inside the chamber when engine was assembled.


Could be the ECM is just in learn mode after it dumped its RAM from being powered down. I really dont know a whole lot bout the ECM for '90.

Dont know bout the exh smell - cant smell anything from here in Vegas.

Dont forget Hobo Fake has auto stethoscopes for like $10.

Hang in there, your down to a knock and a tune. Tune is an expectation here but the knock needs attention.

C4ProjectCar

Got it, I'd forgotten that higher RPMs inhibit detonation.

The engine was at TDC when I checked for distributor rotation to align with the #1 tower.

Honestly, I wasn't sure checking clearances would pay off. Definitely glad I did it now!

Yeah, I was thinking the #1 exhaust valve could be hitting the piston since that was the valve I suspected could have possibly hit the piston stop. For a variety of reasons, I didn't think I bent the valve, but I just thought I'd throw it out there as a possibility.

I disconnected the battery quite a few times before the swap, and it didn't run nearly this badly (if badly at all) when I restarted it and it relearned its settings. Of course, the engine is totally different now.


I'll try to start it again tonight (gotta wait for my dad to get off work since it takes one to feather the gas, watch the gauges, and be ready to turn it off, and another to watch and listen to the engine) and let you know if the knock persists with more normal timing.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: when I turn the key to "on" the engine fans come on like when you jump two pins on the ALDL port.

Edit: Just pulled codes from it. I got C41, H41, H54, and H74, if that means anything.

C4ProjectCar

It runs! Of all the mistakes to make, I had the Ostrich plugged into the adapter backwards

The knocking was still there, but when I ran it without the serpentine belt it stopped. At that point, I found the timing was waaaaay retarded. It was around 20* ATDC. Once I advanced it, it came to life. Changed from a puttering lawnmower to an actual car engine. Then I put the belt back on, and the knocking didn't come back (although I noticed a bit of ticking right about in the middle of the engine; not sure if it was there without the belt on). Any ideas why a retarded engine would knock under load? It's like the exact opposite of usual, where engines knock with too much advance and under no load.

However, with the belt back on it didn't run nearly as well. It was very irregular; with the timing light on the balancer I didn't see anything consistent, just numbers jumping back and forth.

Something about having the belt on seems to be causing issues. Any ideas?

Edit:
Pulled the driver's side valve cover just to check things out. Everything looks fine to me, but here's a picture:



After that, I started it. It was back to running very badly (while I was able to keep it running), even backfiring out of the intake manifold. I played with the distributor, but couldn't get it to improve much. After a couple tries, I decided to think about what had changed. All I could think of were that:

• I disconnected the battery, so the BLMs reset
• I made the stupid and amateurish mistake of disconnecting the wire going to the alternator before I disconnected the battery, which ended in some violent arcing for a second, so perhaps a fuse blew
• I disconnected the paperclip jumping ALDL pins A and G, which I had accidentally left in the previous attempt (when it ran well)

Since I couldn't do much about the first and second possibilities, I reinstalled the paper clip jumping A and G, even though I was confident it would not affect how the engine ran. However, once it started, I got it to run extremely well (relative to my previous attempts) by advancing the timing. I gotta say, it was pretty cool to see the engine go from barely running to running smoothly as I turned the distributor. I've read quite a bit about how spark advance affects the engine, and witnessing the effects firsthand really solidified that in my mind.

Because of the drastic change, it seems that the jumper made the difference. However, I'm unconvinced that enabling code reading mode would affect the ECM. It is entirely possible that I did not advance the distributor this far on my first attempt.

The timing was initially quite retarded and I had to turn it significantly to get it near TDC. I found that I actually had to turn the distributor as far as I could to get the timing even to TDC, and it would spring back once I let go of it. Because of this, I'm thinking I installed the distributor one tooth off. Regardless, I'm going to have to change it by one tooth in order to be able to turn it far enough to get the timing right, I think.

I would have liked to do a bit more testing and troubleshooting tonight but built-up fumes from some paint burning off the exhaust manifolds (the smoke concerned me initially but now I'm positive it's from the paint) was making me quite nauseous surprisingly quickly. I made the mistake of not turning on the fan before I started it in anticipation of the clouds of smoke. Tomorrow I plan to run it and change one variable at a time to confirm or eliminate my hypotheses about the belt and the ALDL jumper.

I know I'm not out of the woods yet, but thank you all for all of your help and advice to get me this far!

bill mcdonald

hey, I am late to seeing this post, and I am not around much
I tried to read all of this, but I just can't.

I have a 355 with AFR 190 heads, I even have head studs. malory metal in my crank, and a one piece fluiddampnr.

The AFR 190 heads had 3 options for spark plug angles. straight, angled, and L98. I ordered mine for the L98. I ran the stock exhaust manifolds a well. I burned up my MSD spark plug boots in 2 minutes run time, no joke. I had more clearence then you did before the mod, but not much. My solution at the time was jacobs ceramic spark plug boots, since I am in CA as well I needed to the stock exhaust to work.
I am going to guess your heads DO NOT have the l98 angle plugs.

I know churchkey gave you good clearance, but something to look at as you get it going.

the ticking up top, does it sound like a sewing machine?

I also installed head studs. If you ever have to remove the heads with it in the car, the passenger side is a real treat! I can't remember how I got mine out, but I did. I think I had to remove the rear stud with an allen wrench

when you mentioned a knocking sound with the belt on, it reminded me of watching my tired out belt tensioner bounce around. How is yours?

With your 6 speed, did you do anything to your flywheel to get it balanced to the crank? I went through a nightmare with mine. Dual mass failed. Single mass made to much noise and was out of balance from a transfer balance. Pulled motor again and got a new dual mass and the single mass balanced to the engine again!

Churchkey

Should not have to deal with timing issues.

Disconnect the EST wire, tan wire/black stripe, black weather pack connector hanging out of the loom @ the brake booster.

Insure your timing light is a standard unit or if it is one with adjustable advance set it to zero.
Start engine, set timing to 6 degrees before top dead center. Tighten distributor, reconnect the EST wire = done deal.

C4ProjectCar

Thanks Bill.

Yeah, it's a really long thread. Kudos for even trying.

I'll check those ceramic boots out if I start melting mine.

I'm not sure I'd describe it as like a sewing machine. Then again I've only heard it for a little while and when I did I was more focused on setting the timing than paying attention to the noise. I'll shoot a video of it and post it as soon as I can.

I wish it was as simple as that, but I replaced the tensioner in September of last year.

No, I didn't have anything done to my flywheel. I was under the impression that since the original motor and new motor were both internally balanced I wouldn't need to have the flywheel rebalanced?


Churchkey,
Although I initially forgot to disconnect the EST wire, for my last few runs I have had it disconnected.

My timing light is a standard, no-frills light.

The issue is that I am unable to turn the distributor far enough to attain correct timing. The cap hits the rubber weather stripping at the base of the windshield right around TDC, and I believe the plug wires in the back hit the firewall too. By advancing the distributor gear one tooth (15 degrees) I should be able to get it to 6* advance without turning the distributor to its limit.

C4ProjectCar

Okay, I set the timing to 6* (+- 1*), removed the ALDL jumper, ran it again, installed the belt, and ran it again. It ran as well after each change as it did initially, so I can rule those out.

Equally exciting, I was able to connect via my bluetooth ALDL adapter and get a data log! Here's a link to it:
http://www.filedropper.com/2015-07-28154630

It's pretty overwhelming to read, but it isn't too bad if you open it in Excel. If you'd like, I can take the data from any of the variables and post a graph of it.

Variables:
Time, PROM ID, TPS Voltage, TPS %, Engine Tempature, Startup Coolant Temp, Battery Voltage, Voltage At Fuel Pump, Vehicle Speed, Tachometer, NV Ratio, MAP Voltage, MAP kPa, Manifold Air Temperature, Engine Running Time, Target AFR, Oxygen Sensor, O2 Cross Counts, Integrator (INT), Block Learn (BLM), Block Learn Cell, Injector BPW, Desired Idle Speed, IAC Motor Position, Spark Adv Rel. to TDC, Spark Adv Rel. to Ref Pulse, Time Between Ref Pulses, Knock Count, Knock Retard, EGR Duty Cycle, CCP Duty Cycle, Oil Temp, Running Total Distance Traveled, Economy

Worth noting is the fact that the EST connector was still disconnected for this log. I'll do another with it connected.

Edit:
Okay, had my sister start it so I could listen to the engine while I got another data log. First things first, here is the link to the data log. (the rev to 3k on startup was not on purpose)
By the way, there's some garbage data in the data logs before it starts and after it shuts off because of the way the ECM sends data to the ALDL port. Disregard that data.

After I shut it off, of course, I remembered I said I'd make a video of the engine noise. So here's that too:

The ticking sounds considerably worse in the video than it actually is, but it's a fairly accurate representation of the sound being made.

Oh, and it started idling without dying after I reconnected the EST connector. Could have been because of that or it could have been a coincidence, but regardless it feels great to be making progress.


Sorry to keep piling on the questions, but when I pulled the distributor to adjust it I saw the teeth on the gear looked a bit worn. Unfortunately, I didn't pay much attention to what they looked like before I installed it so I'm not sure if this was pre-existing. I checked the height when I installed it and confirmed with Lunati that the cam gear was compatible with my distributor gear, so I don't expect either of those would be an issue. Here's a picture:



Does this look like an abnormal amount of wear?

C4ProjectCar

Anyone? I'm anxious to know if I can safely drive it yet.

TLS_Addict

Did you mill the heads/intake? Just curious. I had a carbed 350 that I did hat to and the distributor was bottoming out causing excessive wear.

A circle track race engine builder told me to put in the distributor without the gasket and to try and move the top plate of the main shaft and check for movement. If it has it both ways you are good, if not, well, you have an issue that can be solved with a shim. Don't forget to remove your cap and rotor whole doing this.

Try it and see. It looks like even wear from the pic but I am on my phone which isn't the best for looking at pics.

Easy enough to try though.

C4ProjectCar

The heads have been milled, but I'm not sure about the intake.

When I first installed the distributor, I tried that trick of installing it without the gasket. It seated fully without bottoming out and I was able to wiggle it up and back a bit.

And yeah, the wear on the distributor was fairly even.

Any thoughts on the engine noise?

TLS_Addict

It could be noisy lifters. Maybe they need adjusting?

What is your cam made out of and what is your geae on your distributor made of? Distributor gear should be a softer metal. I would rather replace that than have it destroy the cam.

I would run it a little bit and recheck to see if the wear is worse. Do you have a lot of lash when dropping it in place?

C4ProjectCar

I preloaded all the lifters just over 1/2 turn.

I don't recall what material either is made of, but I believe I looked it up at one point. Regardless, Lunati confirmed that this cam is compatible with my distributor.

How long would you call "a little bit"?

The distributor had a fair amount of play, but I have no idea how much is a lot.

mtwoolford

Unless your "original" engine had been rebuilt with an aftermarket internally balanced crankshaft; all OEM cranks with a one piece rear main seal since 1986 use an externally balanced flywheel; reason? all previous two piece seal cranks have an oddball shaped mounting flange to provide the necessary balance; those cranks did use an neutral balanced flywheel;

when the one piece seal was incorporated, it was no longer possible to put oddball shaped mounting flange on the end of the crank; so the necessary weight was transferred to the flywheel.

At this point I would definitely say you have a mismatch crank / flywheel; if you have the stock DM flywheel, it has a counterweigth cast into it.

Even balancing stock OEM components is a good idea. But once you start mixing and matching aftermarket cranks, rods, pistons etc it really becomes necessary to balance the whole rotating assembly, including the flywheel and pressure plate.

At the least, assuming the new engine is in fact neutral or internally balanced, you will need to swap in a new flywheel; SPEC (at least mine did) uses a bolted in counterweight, the removal of which (I presume) produces a neutrally balanced flywheel.

C4ProjectCar

Well, that sucks.

Will an imbalanced engine just shake at higher RPMs, or are there more serious consequences?

And can I replace the flywheel without pulling the engine?

Edit:
Looks like new DM flywheels are quite pricey. Could I just pull mine and have a machine shop neutrally balance it?