C4ProjectCar

How near zero quench?
And what's difficult about the ground wire stud? Is it just really stiff to turn?

Yeah, I have the ZF6. I've been planning this swap for months and between the FSM and the forum I don't think I should have any insurmountable problems.

Thanks for weighing in. Although now I'm even more uncertain what to do now that someone said it looks fine.

I was concerned about piston to head clearance, but if you run a .035" clearance with no problems then I should be fine. Thanks.

Churchkey

You have good heads, pistons & rods I suspect the crank is also good.

You have concerns, suggest having a local engine builder look at your pieces & evaluate the build.

We here are giving advice based on pictures, "hands on" would result in a better analysis.

C4ProjectCar

Since you (based on the limited information my pictures gave) think the crank is good I'll take the chance and put it in without having it checked. Starting an engine with an out-of-balance crank won't hurt anything, will it? I'll just notice a bad engine vibration? I hope I don't encounter issues, but if I do I guess I'll just have to pull the engine and deal with it on spring break.

When I pulled the heads, I noticed the guide plates are all slightly worn. Is this an issue? There's a little play between a pushrod and the guide plate, so I don't think there is a clearance problem. These plates appear to be the original guide plates that came on the heads, so maybe it's just normal wear and tear? I'm not sure if rocker arms need to be aligned (I'll be learning in a few days), but maybe the rockers were out of alignment, causing the hardened pushrods to rub on and wear the guide plates? Here are a couple pictures:







I'm about to order:

• Harmonic damper http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pfs-80000
• Head gaskets http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mrg-1130g
• Intake manifold gaskets http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-ms93318
• Motor mounts http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ens-3-1127g
• EGR valve http://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-egv429
• Knock sensor http://www.summitracing.com/parts/smp-ks6
• Coolant temperature sensor http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dfp-ts10075

and if I need new guide plates I want to get them in the same order so I get free shipping.

MRPVette

I love project car threads

Churchkey

Run the corner of a file over an edge of one of your guide plates. If metal is removed the plates are not hardened.

cardo0

Awesome buy! Man u got a studded engine with H-beam rods and some expensive balancing.

Now is the time to take some critical measurements. Like churchkey detailed measure your vlv to piston clearance. Next u want to know the volume above the piston. U need to get the deck level (turn in on the engine stand and use a bubble level). Once level u need to find TDC on cyl u measure - u need a piston stop and degree wheel for this. U stop the piston (carefully) close to TDC (bout 0.050" but not critical) note the location on a degree wheel then turn the crank opposite direction and stop the piston again and note location in degrees. Now just use the mid position between the 2 stop location for TDC - this is the time u set your timing tab also if u have one.

Once u get the cyl at the true/verified TDC then smear a little grease into the ring crevice between cyl and piston to seal it (tiny amount of grease will do this). Cover the cyl with a piece of plexiglass with a hole in it to pour oil (or any liquid) into the cyl. Use a cheap graduated cylinder to measure the total liquid to fill the top of piston - 1ml = 1cc. U now have the most accurate piston vol for c.r. calcs that u gonn'a get.
Use the same operation to measure the head chamber vol.

U should very the stroke by moving any piston to BTDC and just stick the calipers depth gauge down the hole from the deck. This distance minus the deck height (again thx to churchkey) is your stroke. U can now calculate a very accurate c.r..
As far as differences in the piston to deck measurements u need to measure along the piston pin line and average the reading to avoid piston rock in the bore.

I dont worry 'bout guide plate wear as i feel the plate is sacrificial (and not rocket science). Just make sure your p-rods dont have wear and move smoothly over the plate.

For thin head gaskets i assume u have GEN I head and block (not reverse flow GEN II). U are better off with a good graphite layered gasket but the good old FelPro 1094 is only 0.015" compressed and cheap too. They are coated but not with graphite and at one time (long ago) i actually called FelPro and verified they recommend them for aluminum heads - but good luck. BTW the gaskets in your pix look like the engine never ran.

U could also pull the pan now and check clearances there. Check each main clearance with Plastigauge (use fresh plastigauge only) - i bet your find studs on the main caps also. If the main brg clearances are good i dont think i would even bother checking rod bearing - not worth stretching the bolts.
But u want to check oil pump pickup to pan now - use a little clay or play-dough for 1/8" clearance check. BTW i believe all the new 1 piece oil pan gaskets are reusable so an new gasket not an issue.

Thats all i can think of for now.
Awesome buy/find and good luck.

C4ProjectCar

Me too. This one even more since it's mine

Ahh, thanks. I'll check that out today.

Wow, didn't know I had H-beam rods. I knew they were better but didn't know what they looked like. Thanks for pointing that out. This is looking more and more like a steal for $2k (including Comp Pro Magnum rockers).

I used feeler gauges along the piston pin to measure the deck clearance of each piston. Here's what I got:

• 1: .019"
• 2: .021"
• 3: .021"
• 4: .022"
• 5: .023"
• 6: .023"
• 7: .024"
• 8: .022"

Would measuring the volume with those measurements (clearance*pi*r^2 -> clearance*3.14*4.03^2 -> clearance*60.0) be too inaccurate? This has 12cc dished pistons so I won't have issues with compression being too high. Using my tightest clearance, I get a compression of only 9.9:1. By the way, what do you use the volume for? The compression calculators I've seen have just used the piston deck height. I'm guessing the volume is to account for variances in the height of the piston along its face?

Okay, good to know about the guide plates. I wasn't looking forward to possibly having to buy new ones. I'll check to make sure they're hardened and if so leave them as is.

Yeah, it's first gen SBC. I was planning on getting the 1094 but with one of the pistons only .019" in the hole I wasn't sure about a quench of only .034", so I went for the Mr. Gasket 1130G, which is elastomer coated. Is that a problem for aluminum heads?

I have the pan off right now so I'll check the main bearings right away. I'll have to hold off on checking pickup clearance until I pull my old engine though, since I'll be using my old oil pan. If the new pump doesn't have the right clearance I'll double check my M55HV (on my old engine currently, also the pump that's on my new engine) to make sure it hasn't moved and reuse it. Or actually, I may buy a new pickup and use the stock pump. I don't think I want a HV pump if I don't need one.
The old gasket has some sealant stuck on it on the front and the back. Should I try to remove this before I reinstall it?

Thanks for the long post. I appreciate all the help I can get.


Today I'm planning to install my new head gaskets and camshaft, and possibly install my harmonic damper (not sure if the pulley has to be installed at the same time). Does anyone have any advice?
I'm not sure what to do concerning sealant and the heads/intake. It seems the consensus is to put a bead of "The Right Stuff" at the front and back of the block, going a couple inches onto each head?

Lastly, does anyone have any free mods they'd suggest? I've heard cutting a groove in the distributor gear helps with oiling?
Oh, and does anyone know if a Lunati Voodoo hydraulic roller is compatible with the stock distributor gear?

cardo0

Dude it reads like u need an assembly manual/"how to book" for a guide as just tiny errors will create a motor that eats itself rapidly. I like D. Vizard books on the SBC. Cutting up the dist gear is something ive never heard or read about. Beware of the faceless internet where unprofessional advice (even damaging advice) abounds - try to verify mods with legitimate published information. I cant recall the correct dist gear matchup for materials so u should contact Lunati for more info on their cams.

The sealant should be generous along the china wall - at least 1/4' but i use nearly 1/2" high/tall. It then needs to continue with a small bead (like 1/16") onto the head where u circle the coolant passages at the heads ends and continues the entire way across the head/intake gasket. Generally one side of gasket is good enough but nothing to stop u on both sides - u should use a thinner bead though if on both side of gasket. Important to circle the coolant passages though and use a tall enough bead on the china walls.

Measuring piston and chamber vols with liquid is much more accurate than using listed vols for compression ratio calcs. But u must use an accurate TDC or the effort is wasted. I would say your average of the deck height u measured would be somewhere in the 0.022" range but again unless your measuring this at an accurate TDC position it is unreliable. Most stock blocks are 0.025" deck height but different pistons have different compressed height and many machine shops will take a shave of the deck - a few thou's - to clean and sometimes square up the deck.

I dont know why u are in a hurry to install the heads and head gasket now if u havent measured the volumes yet. This is something that almost cant be redone without much greater effort.
FYI the vol above the piston in ml becomes the vol for deck height + piston dish + piston crevice (unless u use too much grease) in cc. All that remains needed is the head chamber vol (u can measure accurately again will liquid), gasket vol, and stroke to nail your c.r. - much less calculations/number crunching. Do u think book numbers for dish, head chamber and feeler gauge numbers for deck height is more accurate? If so disregard everything i posted and your on your own. An accurate c.r. will tell u if your cam is correct for your compression and fuel used. I guess i have to say take it or leave it.
BTW u verified stroke didnt u? U could be easily surprised to find >3.75" stroke.

One more item, just because u have great rods, larger stroke, better heads, pistons, rocker arms doesnt mean u need a hi press oil pump. With a 9.9 c.r. i dont expect great hp let alone high rpm enough to justify anything but a stock pump and press. Too high press will be detrimental to good lubrication in a mild performance engine.

Finally i did see your oil pan was off but failed to look at the main cap bolts before i posted. Yes u have bolts there rather than studs that i expected. Something to consider is bolts are not designed for frequently torquing as studs are and once u determine your brg clearance is correct/corrected maybe u want to replace the main cap bolts.

Whew! Your Q's wore me out dude. Good luck on your new motor checks and build.

C4ProjectCar

I'll definitely find a reputable guide of some sort, thanks for the advice.
As far as cutting the distributor gear, not sure if I'll do that, but that's actually a mod that one of the cam companies (Crane maybe?) recommends for better oiling. I haven't looked into it at all yet. Anything off of the beaten path like that I'll definitely verify before I do.

I'm in a hurry because I'd like to get this project done by this weekend. I don't want to cut any corners or rush anything, but I also don't want to do anything unnecessary. I figured a 9.9 CR is easily safe with 91 octane, and likely with 89, so I won't have detonation issues, and if I ever do anything to change the compression ratio I'd be right there and able to measure the volume then.

I have not checked the stroke yet (was too busy to do any work on it today) but I definitely will before I put it back together. Out of curiosity, why would a 3.75" stroker crank be anything but 3.75"?

Well, they're high volume, not high pressure, but I get the picture. I'm only running a HV pump in my car right now because fuel in the oil caused the bearings to wear and oil pressure to drop. I replaced the main and rod bearings, but couldn't get to the cam bearings with the engine in the car so I used a HV pump as a patch.

Thanks again for all the help! I'll undoubtedly have more questions as the project progresses.

C4ProjectCar

I filed on the edge of the guide plate, and a tiny bit of metal came off. It was almost imperceptible, but I definitely saw metal shavings glinting on the file. Does this mean I need new guide plates?

I know you need hardened pushrods if you use guide plates, so why would non-hardened guide plates even exist?



EDIT:
I also measured the distance from the deck to the centerline of the piston at BDC using a digital caliper. Subtracting my measured deck height for that piston, I got 3.742". On another piston, I got 3.748". This discrepancy is too large for my measurements to be very accurate. Is there a way to get a piston exactly to BDC without specialized tools?
On the other hand, a difference of .01" in stroke only changes compression by about .025 points. Do I really need to be that precise?

mtwoolford

Google "Crane Cams distributor housing modification" ; basically the distributor gear / cam gear only receive splash lubrication; filing a 0.030 inch groove in the lower distributor housing ring provides forced lubrication to this critical interface

C4ProjectCar

Thanks for putting a name to the that mod. I was sure it was from a reputable source.

C4ProjectCar

Anyway, I measured the volume of the cylinders at TDC. Here are my methods, both so you guys can critique me and so that those that come after me can follow the same procedure.

It was time-consuming, so I just measured cylinders 1 and 7, which were the cylinders with the smallest and largest measured deck clearances. I didn't have access to a degree wheel or piston stop, so I instead rotated the crank until pistons 3 and 5 were the same distance from the deck, to the nearest half millimeter. Ignoring inconsistencies in the deck surface, pistons 1 and 7 should be at TDC when pistons 3 and 5 reach equal positions.

I had a piece of acrylic, but because I had studs sticking out of the block, I had to cut it down to size. A circle with a 4.5" diameter fit between the studs but overlapped the edges of the bore enough for me to be able to hold it down snug to the deck.

I decided to use a syringe to fill the cavity with oil, so I drilled a 13/64" hole (13/64" was totally arbitrary, it just looked like a good size) in the acrylic. I drilled the hole toward the edge, so that I could rotate the engine so that the hole would be directly over the air pocket in the oil. After lots of frustration, I drilled a second hole so that the escaping air wouldn't push oil back out as I tried to squirt it in. I drilled the second hole approximately opposite of the first hole, so that I could fill oil on the "downhill" hole and the air would come out the "uphill" hole. I made the hole small enough that the tip of the syringe would seal tightly so that oil would not leak out.

I then just held the acrylic tightly over the bore, taking care to only press down on the edges. Pressing down anywhere else would deform the acrylic, skewing volume results. I put some 5w-20 oil in a cup, using a 5ml syringe to fill the piston. When I first filled the syringe, I had to turn it upside down and squirt a little oil out to get rid of an air bubble.

Here are my results, compared to the deck clearance measurements I took.
1: .019", 17.2cc
7: .024", 18.0cc

Subtracting the volume of the piston head, I get the following.
1: .019", 5.2cc
7: .024", 6.0cc

Churchkey

Nice work.

While your at it check a combustion chamber cc. Early heads could have smaller chambers + the style of valve face (dished/flat) will make a difference.
Compression calk here:
https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/compstaticcalc.html

Your close to 10 to 1 CR - getting it spot on should not be a major concern until you start using + 13 to 1 CR.

If using the stock TPI intake this will be a good torque motor you will be shifting @ 4800 rpm.

cardo0

Awesome C4. I can tell your learning alot as u begin measurements. I still have a problem with your eyeball engineering of TDC. And while u really need a degree wheel for "degreeing" the cam and other measurements u could always mark your dampner in degrees (or buy a tape but make sure the correct diameter) for accuracy buy doing the geometry thing (dampner circle dia" x pie divide by 360 = arc distance inches/degree).

Yes the acrylic is fine and cut it up and drill holes as u want - u just want a good fill w/o leaks. My bad and i neglected to tell u to use grease or petroleum jelly (just dont put it back in the medicine cabinet). We found that the red axle grease holds real well and a guy on C3 forum was able to measure piston vol with the block sitting in the car! And u make me feel lazy as i only measure 1 cyl for this but your idea of highest and lowest is great - congrats.
No u dont need to subtract your piston dish unless its a domed piston as it is part of the piston vol. I hope now u can see the vol above the piston includes piston dish, deck height, and crevice vol (if u didnt use too much grease and completely fill the piston to cyl wall gap). I would split the difference and use 17.6cc or be conservative and use the 17.2cc value for c.r. calcs. Next measure the head chamber same way. U only need to use the gasket compressed thickness and gasket dia to get the gasket vol.

FYI the static c.r. = (static vol + swept vol)/static vol.
For your static vol = piston vol + head chamber vol + gasket vol.
swept vol = 3.75" x pie x (bore dia?/2)squared

(if u dont know the current bore dia then u can measure it easily - not rocket science)

If u have problems sorting this out just ask. Like churchkey said close to 10:1 static with alum heads will work well with most street cams. BTW your stroke check was good enough - i was thinking u could have a surprise stroke along with those other good parts and expensive balance. Didnt find your cam specs anywhere but regardless u should have a accurate c.r. now to make your own cam decisions.

Great effort. Your wearing me out man!

C4ProjectCar

Got it, I'll do that next. I know the heads are advertised as a 68cc chamber but this will be more accurate, plus there's the possibility that the heads have been milled a bit.


Yeah, the eyeballing of TDC was admittedly kind of sketchy. However, due to the geometry of the situation, the velocity of the piston as a function of crank rotation slows to practically zero as it nears TDC, so I'd be willing to bet I was accurate to within .0005". If I wasn't so busy with college applications I'd do the math.

I have this harmonic dampener, which has 0-60 degrees printed on it. Do I need a wider range than that, or will 0-60 suffice?

My bad, I forgot to mention that I did in fact use petroleum jelly to seal the crevice between the piston and the cylinder.

I ended up going with the Lunati 262/270 Voodoo. It's pretty similar to the LPE 219.

Thanks for the help. If I have time, I'm hoping to measure the combustion chamber volume, swap the cam, and install the heads today. After that I'll install the intake base and start pulling my old engine.

cardo0

Ok for the dampner marks u would need them marks before and after TDC rather than just before. And that would be good for only TDC on #1 (#6 also). #7 (and #4) TDC is 270 degrees further on the dampner (or just 90* the other way). I only say this as u need an accurate TDC on #1 to verify the timing tab on the timing cover. U want to set the correct timing dont u. Most enthusiasts never with bother this and continue to run their engine a few degrees off. Yes they just slap everything together and never understand how easy that timing tab gets moved/bent.

Yes u will like that cam with your compression range. But oh baby those are some bad azz heads. 227cc runner AFR's will give it all the air it can handle. Somewhat too big runner for your cam and TPI intake so low RPM manners may not be the best - but maybe just fine - who knows until u drive it. But above 3000 RPM that combo gonna rip your head off - hold on baby.

But dude u gonna need a gasket for alumin head. I dont think that coated Mr. Gasket steel gasket gonna do it for u. Blown head gasket will ruin more than just your day bud. Look for something that says OK for alumin and graphite is a good choice here - allows alumin to creep with temp changes.

Had to run numbers as is and i get 9.7 static c.r. - not bad. 10.4 would be best but 9.7 is ok.


U got one heck of buy for only 2 grand. It will be a very fun car. And take all the punishment u can give it too.

C4ProjectCar

I'll definitely set the timing. I guess I'll look a little harder to see if I can borrow/rent/buy a degree wheel somewhere.

I looked up the casting marks a while back and I actually think they're the 190s. I'm frequently wrong though. Did you see something on them to show that they're 227s?

Thanks for the heads-up on that gasket. I'll look into it.

mtwoolford

Here's a quick and dirty shortcut.

I take modelling clay, fill whatever I'm trying to measure, and in the case of a piston in a cylinder, or a combustion chamber in a head, take a straight edge and smooth the clay even with the surface, then remove the clay and drop it in a graduated cylinder / tube partially filled with water and see how much it displaces. It's fast, easy and can measure (almost) any cavity in any position. example: 58 cc (nominal) Chevy heads measured out at 57.6 cc's.

If you use craft type modelling clay that hardens, and mark the volume on it, you can keep a permanent record of whatever you measured.

mtwoolford

that damper should work just fine; but before the heads go on, but with the timing chain, timing chain cover, and damper installed, set the number one piston at TDC and confirm that 0 on the damper lines up with the pointer on the timing chain cover; adjust as necessary...