VikingTrad3r

edit: as it seems happens to many of us, what i once thought was my problem is not my problem. read onto see the course of diagnosis. but if you have seeping intake bolts, i do not have those, so dont waste your time! if you have a crap idle, read on!

edit 2, 3rd dec, 2015. turns out i have a blown head gasket on both sides. i am in the process of tearing down the engine to replace the gaskets.


edit may 28 2016: replaced head gasket with the felpro kit. used hylomar. then discovered i had a blown tranny, replaced that. today, i got the car out on the road again and its working perfectly. this car had almost everything wrong with it u could imagine. its good to go now.
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recently discovered the driver side intake bolts are seeping coolant.

i have researched and i know this needs to be dealt with and i am prepared to take it on over the winter.

in the meantime i am trying to diagnose a crap idle issue with an 85, i have done the usual minimum idle setting etc etc.

is it possible that intake bolts that are seeping coolant affect the idle?

i am thinking vacum leak...but....i tried the propane trick and got nothing. it doesn't seem logical that they would be a vacum leak, rather a pressure loss area.

i juust want to rule out the seeping bolts as having any impact on the idle.

(awaiting my aldl cable to monitoer the INT and the BLM to zone in on what the issue is but I thought I would ask this in the mean time)

antfarmer2

yes

blackozvet

which bolts, front and/or rear ?

Dt86

Try the smoke method to check for vacuum leaks.

Joe C

seeping "anything" is not good. how do you know exactly that coolant is seeping internally, or are you seeing coolant laying on top of the intake around any of the intake bolts, or what? I did have a instance where a failed thermostat gasket allowed coolant to "puddle" around the forward most, LH intake manifold bolt.

if there is an internal leak because of the intake gaskets, the gasket(s) may be compromised, and/or a sealant issue with any manifold bolts near the coolant passages, or it could be another issue. off the top of my head, there's just two each at (4) corners of the intake where coolant could possibly leak. about the only way coolant could affect the idle, if it's working its way in through one of the intake valves. i'd also be concerned with coolant working its way into the oil system.

worse case scenario, is the original, (steel shim) head gasket. I recently had to pull the heads on my 85 because the original steel head gasket were rusting, and allowing very slight coolant seepage into #7 cylinder. you could actually see a path of rust and track its way from one of the coolant passages through to #7

whatever the issue is, it needs to be addressed. good luck - hopefully its a minor issue -

VikingTrad3r

thanks all, will have pics and vid posted in a couple hours.

aklim

How are you defining "crap idle"? If your plugs are fouled by coolant or oil or just plain old, it can affect your idle. If your injectors are dirty, it can affect idle. If your plug wires are leaking, it can affect idle. If the fuel pressure is not right, see above.

As to whether it is seeping into the combustion chamber, I would say you can pressure test it but might as well pull the plugs to see.

John A. Marker

First off....I do not believe that any of the intake bolts go into the water jacket of the head. They are all higher and are either in a "blind" threaded hole or thread directly into the valley and would be exposed to oil.

More than likely as mentioned by Joe C, you have leak around the thermostat gasket and coolant in flowing and pooling around the bolt. Or there is a pin hole leak in a hose that is spraying coolant and it is pooling around the bolt.

If the intake gasket was compromised you would probably find coolant and oil mixed.

VikingTrad3r

Hi Guys,

pics below of the pooling coolant. I will wipe it up and see if i get more there at the end of the day. i did take my tb off so maybe i didn't tighten my tb coolant hoses enough. pics are of the driver side. (wtf is the orange rtv doing there? a previous owner bubba job to really cheapen the look.)

Ak, crap idle refers to general hunting, and stalling out when say, backing into a parking space, or, stopping at red light. All aspects of the minimum idle setting have been adjusted corectly, though with either a rich or lean condition somewhere that is not going to fix the stalling. i used 510 as my base idle, 10 higher than the updated amount for the 85.

Anyway, I have many items on this car that could be the problem and i have my scan aldl cable in transit and my tunerpro program here awaiting it, i want to find out if i am dealing with a rich or lean fuel trim condition, which i have learned is referred to as the BLM or INT in these obd1 cars (or maybe i have it wrong) but i haven't found any youtube vids on the fuel trims for obd1 cars so i will learn as i go.

I don't want to just replace parts ***** nilly, so awaiting the scanner.

That said, coolant sitting as per these photos is something that is indisputably not supposed to be there so! connected to the idle issue or not.

















i note that the bolt heads appear to have some rust at the base of the screw heaads.





wtf is the po bubba fix with the orange rtv? that is a vac line that activates the egr or what?

aklim

Adjusted correctly as verified by what? This is an instance I disagree with the FSM. That procedure does too much ASSUME. It assumes there are no underlying issues, changed EPROM settings, timing is right, etc. I would verify with a timing light that your timing is on. Check the harmonic balancer for walking. If it walks you will have next to zero chaos correct timing.

If there is an air leak, idle speed also will not be right. Check plugs if they are good. Check wires for spark leak. Check with brake cleaners at least for obvious leaks around the mating surfaces and hoses.

Wait till you get a scanner. In the meantime, Mark the harmonic balancer with a paint stripe. That would check in future if the outside ring walks. In the meantime, check timing and spray around or use propane to check for air leaks.

When you have a scanner, check what the desired idle is. If it is set high, you cannot fix it. You have to send it to someone to reprogram it. Shut everything except the engine off. Check out the IAC count. If it is 0,set the throttle screw by turning it out. If the throttle blades are completely closed and it still reads 0,you might have an air leak. After turning the screw, Rev and repeat IAC check. More than 30,turn screw in, Rev and recheck when counts are reasonably stable.

antfarmer2

when you pulled your throttle body did you use a new gasket and blue locktight?

John A. Marker

Just be aware that most scanners do not support the 85 with the 870 chip...it is the bastard child....the loner...before moving to the 86.

VikingTrad3r

ak, , yes it was per minimum idle procedure and see how the foundation of timing and harmonic need to be verified first, which i havnt. i will do all of what you have suggested before scanning so i know the foundation is solid. will teport back with what scan says. also, i did the propane check with no increase in rpm discovered however i got freaked out in case of spark from injectors or other electronics. i will use brake cleaner and try again.

ant: no and no. , that said, propane shot at edge of tb gasket did nothing.

Jmarker: i ordered the aldl cable, have tunerpro downloaded, when it areives i will be over on my scanner forum thread asking questions if i cannot figure it out. Cliff and others helped me verify i was ordering the correct cable (there two to choose from) and my understanding is that the blm reading is the only useful fuel trim reading because the int(stft) just doesnt work because of the slow refresh rate. i may be wrong.

I note AK's instructions above on the scanner for iac counts, which i assume relate to the iac being in various stages of open and closed.

After i get the timing and balancer confirmed i will close tb plates with screw, verify iac @ 0, and see if car will run which should tell me if i have unmetered air into system. I think i am on the right track anyway.

thanks guys, i am taking another leap here as i move away from the wrench happy parts changer, steep learning curve since my forst experience a year ago which was changing the waterpump gasket, that damn screw on the bottom lol) to learning how to diagnose the cars with the info from ecm and onservation. Never done any of this but i can learn and apply and will feel much better about abilities to handle situations on the cars.

antfarmer2

gaskets are not ment to be reused. and will add to leaks and make it harder to find when you have more than one the gas might not work. I would get a cheap cigar and block off your throttle body. and blow smoke in the hose that goes to your brake booster and see where it leaks.

aklim

I don't believe the current is that severe in the injectors that you should worry about a spark in the fuel rail area. I believe it is about 5V but don't quote me on that. Minimum Idle procedure only works on a limited area providing everything else is within spec. Kinda why it is worthless IMO.

Correct. Higher count means it is opening up more to compensate for the lack of air required to keep things where they are needed to be, lower counts mean there is more air than required. If you have a big leak, it will close completely, hence 0 counts.

Not necessary. I try to achieve 30 counts with only engine running. Rev and let it settle down. See what it does before making another adjustment. Once set to about 30 counts steady, set TPS, shut down, restart and drive

aklim

I always say that with a couple of exceptions, gaskets are like condoms, I don't reuse either. Although there are probably some who reuse them.

VikingTrad3r

still waiting for my aldl cable to arrive. i have my ads file for the 85 all ready to go with my version of both winaldl and tunerpro.

for fun i went out and introduced vac leaks to the car (i pulled a hose off that contraption by the ac compressor) and injected pure propane. couildn't get any rise whatsoever.

when i removed the propane and just left it suck air, the car had a smoother idle than before.

doesn't this point to a very rich condition? runs smoother (not higher) with more air? to ease out the rich condition?

Anyway i will know more when scanning but i think the logic is right?

i have not been able to get more coolant to appear.

I suppose the other thing is that it could be sucking soooooo much air that me introducing that little bit of air and little of propane didn't do much at all.

my fuel system leaks down to zero in 15 min. so even then, if it was an open injector dumping fuel in, it would leak down faster than that wouldn't it?

antfarmer2

depends on how big the leak is fpr can leak or just might be your cheak valve in your pump. smell your oil for fuel.

did you try the cigar yet? with a piece of pipe and a air compressure turned down don't evan need to puff it.

how old is the 02 sensor (s)

maybe it is sencing to much air and adding fuel.

VikingTrad3r

hi and thanks for the reply, I have done the cigar test and no dice. I just can't find a vacuum leak if this car has one. Anyway I started a new thread regarding fuel pressure because I think you're onto something with the fuel pump comment. Either the fuel pump check valve is toasted, or,I have injectors that are leaking like Seives because it drops from full pressure at Idol for from initial pressurization with Key, to zero in five seconds. anyway I'm awaiting my scanner cable.

I started a new thread because I thought I should keep this one too just the coolant seeping out of the bolts on the intake.

Which by the way I have not been able to re-create in the last three days, so I have no idea where that coolant came from.

antfarmer2

if you get another hand you can pump it up then clamp off the fuel pump hoses. that way you will know for sure if it is the cheak valve would not worry about it. or your pulsater or rubber line off the pump fix it.