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I have had good luck with metrinch sockets when I find a rounded head. best to replace at this point make sure you get all the loose metal out laying around. you did not use red locktight or something stronger did you? might need to weld nuts to them if all else fails.
What kind of lube are you using? I have never used ARP assembly lube but I have herd of people having problems with it. There are lower torque values for lubed vs dry, but your not even close to the final torque value. I'd call ARP they might at least sell you just the damaged bolts for less than the whole kit. They may even want you to send them the damaged bolts to test. ARP makes good stuff but when you produce tons of something some bad parts do get thru. If they do want the bolts, they can test sections of it and find out if it's defective or user error.
FWIW there is a very serious ongoing problem with counterfeit ARP-lookalike bolts flooding the market - here's a link:
Although the OPs bolts appear to be genuine (as they are stamped 'ARP'), that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not fake. If I were the OP I would verify the source of the bolts and work directly with ARP tech support to determine that he has the genuine product.
Good luck to the OP on what appears to be a very frustrating issue...
Although the OPs bolts appear to be genuine (as they are stamped 'ARP'), that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not fake. If I were the OP I would verify the source of the bolts and work directly with ARP tech support to determine that he has the genuine product.
Good luck to the OP on what appears to be a very frustrating issue...
Although the OPs bolts appear to be genuine (as they are stamped 'ARP'), that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not fake. If I were the OP I would verify the source of the bolts and work directly with ARP tech support to determine that he has the genuine product.
Good luck to the OP on what appears to be a very frustrating issue...
good info, although I'm a little confused. I bought my ARP on-line from U.S. Parts Outlet. part number, 134-3601. the bolt heads are marked with ARP, two places on the head, but not any alloy numbering. from the website their examples are showing 12 point bolts.
good info, although I'm a little confused. I bought my ARP on-line from U.S. Parts Outlet. part number, 134-3601. the bolt heads are marked with ARP, two places on the head, but not any alloy numbering. from the website their examples are showing 12 point bolts.
The ARP head bolts I have are not for a small block. They are also marked with ARP on two places the bolt head, and are 6 point.
Just in case before anyone asks... No I wont go remove a cylinder head for this.
Thanks all for the advice so far. More info to answer the questions:
1. I am using no torque amplifier, and hadn't heard of one, but now that I have it sounds like I need one just to comfortably be able to apply that much force with my body in this position. Tightening things under the car on my back is actually a lot easier than this, at least I get to put my leg muscles into it then.
2. My torque wrench looks like this one (http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j0...que-Wrench.jpg), but without that writing (not sure what brand or if it's made in China) and the bottom black **** of it is missing that smaller radius section sticking out (as in it fell off) that helps lock the setting in position. I seem to recall a little spring that went with it too.
3. With my hands I applied the included ARP assembly lube underneath each bolt head and all over each shoulder and washer. Then I applied ARP thread sealant, using the sealant dispenser head to smear it all around about half the threads. Then I put the washer on and threaded the bolt in.
4. I put the beveled end of each washer towards the head of the bolt, I believe this is for causing the head of the bolt to contact less of it.
5. No loctite or anything crazy like that. I had not heard of those Metrinch 6 point sockets but they look great for this. I shouldn't need to weld nuts, I think the bolts will come out no problem (though I don't see the need to replace the damaged ones until I uninstall the heads again, since I don't think I could've over tightened them).
Asking ARP what to do (and helping them verify if they're real) sounds like a great next step. I did not know about the counterfeits and I've bought counterfeit things in the past that were packaged even better than the original product, that could have been the case with these. They came with the washers in a bag, instructions, a really nice shrink wrapped box, some paper padding to take up room, a packet of assembly lube, and some protective grease on the bolts.
Thanks also for the recommendation of shop vacuuming out the engine before stitching it back together, I had not thought about shavings or dust that's been accumulating. I wish I had done this to the bottom end before I put my oil pan on, there was probably dust from having the car towed without it on, splashed up all the way to the parts.
Last edited by LouisvilleLT4; 12-01-2015 at 01:56 PM.
Thanks all for the advice so far. More info to answer the questions:
1. I am using no torque amplifier, and hadn't heard of one, but now that I have it sounds like I need one just to comfortably be able to apply that much force with my body in this position. Tightening things under the car on my back is actually a lot easier than this, at least I get to put my leg muscles into it then.
2. My torque wrench looks like this one (http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j0...que-Wrench.jpg), but without that writing (not sure what brand or if it's made in China) and the bottom black **** of it is missing that smaller radius section sticking out (as in it fell off) that helps lock the setting in position. I seem to recall a little spring that went with it too.
3. With my hands I applied the included ARP assembly lube underneath each bolt head and all over each shoulder and washer. Then I applied ARP thread sealant, using the sealant dispenser head to smear it all around about half the threads. Then I put the washer on and threaded the bolt in.
4. I put the beveled end of each washer towards the head of the bolt, I believe this is for causing the head of the bolt to contact less of it.
5. No loctite or anything crazy like that. I had not heard of those Metrinch 6 point sockets but they look great for this. I shouldn't need to weld nuts, I think the bolts will come out no problem (though I don't see the need to replace the damaged ones until I uninstall the heads again, since I don't think I could've over tightened them).
Asking ARP what to do (and helping them verify if they're real) sounds like a great next step. I did not know about the counterfeits and I've bought counterfeit things in the past that were packaged even better than the original product, that could have been the case with these. They came with the washers in a bag, instructions, a really nice shrink wrapped box, some paper padding to take up room, a packet of assembly lube, and some protective grease on the bolts.
Thanks also for the recommendation of shop vacuuming out the engine before stitching it back together, I had not thought about shavings or dust that's been accumulating. I wish I had done this to the bottom end before I put my oil pan on, there was probably dust from having the car towed without it on, splashed up all the way to the parts.
sounds like you're doing everything by the book. I still would get another torque wrench though. as for the torque amplifier, I was kind of being sarcastic - torque amplifier - a length of pipe on the handle end of the torque wrench. the reason for the beveled side of the washer is not to lessen the contact area of the bolt head, but to clear the bolt head-to-shank radius.
your ARP's came packaged the same as mine. I highly doubt we have counterfeits.
this I don't understand -
Tightening things under the car on my back is actually a lot easier than this, at least I get to put my leg muscles into it then.
...but now that I have it sounds like I need one just to comfortably be able to apply that much force with my body in this position. Tightening things under the car on my back is actually a lot easier than this, at least I get to put my leg muscles into it then.
you are tightening head bolts from under the car? haven't done much wrenching on LT1/LT4's, but "under the car..." - I don't understand.
Thanks also for the recommendation of shop vacuuming out the engine before stitching it back together, I had not thought about shavings or dust that's been accumulating. I wish I had done this to the bottom end before I put my oil pan on, there was probably dust from having the car towed without it on, splashed up all the way to the parts.
How far was it towed w/o an oil pan, any dirt roads?
It's a BIG gamble but I've seen engines tolerate some junk. Just it will deff shorten it's life. I'll give you the same advice I did my friend who didn't cover up his engine and then got saw dust all over it w/o the oil pan on, intake and valve covers. Start over! Or use a good filter and maybe a non-bypass filter adapter and pray! He never fired up his engine so I'll never know, but I told him if I wanted to take a BIG GAMBLE I'd of changed the filter after a short run in and then changed it a few more times. NO GUARANTEE! You may ruin those parts you just put on. My friends was just a stock engine he got for free that he was changing gaskets on only. When he asked me to finish it up I told him I wouldn't touch it and risk my rep.
It can't be as bad as saw dust I saw on that engine, but oil is sticky and I'm sure you have plenty of grit stuck to everything and if it gets past the filter.
edit: Always cover up, bag or wrap up exposed engine parts, even if I plan to clean stuff I'll try and keep it from getting more junk on it. I even take car to not dirty a cover(plastic bag) if I plan to reuse it or I'll use a new one. I use trash bags all the time to cover stuff up.
Well I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I went to Sears and bought brand new 1/2 inch craftsman sockets, and they're still slipping right off these increasingly rounded-off ARP head bolts.
Now they're damaged in the same way as my other sockets - little chunks taken out to the right side of each interior corner.
Why won't my 1/2" sockets seat well enough on these bolts to stay on them while I turn? Why do they slip off when I hit about 40 ft/lb?
I checked my torque wrench against another one, and I seriously doubt I'm strong enough to exceed the required 70 ft/lb by that much. So it seems to just be a combination of a bad initial angle on the bolts (as I try to pry down diagonally from my seated position on the wheel) plus a little damage to the bolt that's also encouraging slipping. Why such minor damage encourages the 6-point sockets to slip to such a major degree is a mystery.
Is there any trick to holding the torque wrench better? Maybe I'm just not good at turning it in a plane exactly perpendicular to the bolt. I'm grabbing the wrench at the far end and twisting in approximately that plane, but I can tell the amount of force makes the wrench and socket want to **** a different direction. I'm using my other hand on the head of the torque wrench to try to stabilize it from cocking more, but yeah right, there's just too much force at play for that assistance to really work. It just ***** until it slips off.
Good grief. First of all the heads on those bolts are WAY TOO SOFT; there is no way a properly hardened bolt head would ever show that kind of damage; those bolts have to be defective / counterfeit. Get a set of bolts from some trusted vendor, Summit, Jeg's, Rock Auto, etc. and replace those bolts one at a time.
I believe, but I'm not certain by any means, that LT4 blocks may have blind head bolt holes; i.e. earlier blocks were drilled and tapped through to the water passages so bolt length wasn't critical; but with a "blind" hole the bolt reaches the bottom of the hole and that's it; if its too long, it will never clamp the head down on the head gasket properly, the only recourse would be shorten the bolts, or get shorter bolts, or put thicker washers under the bolt head.
and there should not be any discernible play between a quality six point socket and a hex head bolt, whether it be 12mm, 1/2 inch or 13mm. Again, and I speculate, that your Ebay vendor may have sold you defective, counterfeit bolts.
Last edited by mtwoolford; 12-04-2015 at 12:18 PM.
Ok - looking at the damaged bolts - it looks like the hex heads are buggered up all the way to the bottom of the hex. That SHOULD NOT happen at 40 - 50 ft lb. If the bolt heads were only ripped up at the top - the issue could be that you didn't have enough of the socket engaging the hex head - but that's not the case here. I'd say that there is a 99% chance that you have defective bolts or a defective torque wrench.
The 70 ft lb torque that the SBC head bolts require is not all that hard to achieve - if your torque wrench is about 18" long - pulling on it with about 47 pounds gets you there. As other posters have suggested - get another torque wrench (you can buy a Harbor Freight 1/2" torque wrench that typically is on sale for around $10), or borrow a torque wrench to check yours against. Just loosen one lug nut - then tightening a lug nut to 70 ft lbs with yours and then check it with the other wrench as a quick "ball park" calibration test. If the torque wrench isn't the problem - it's likely it's the bolts...
IMHO - I would carefully remove those bolts and send one or two of them back to ARP - if they are real ARP bolts - I fully expect they are defective (bad heat treatment ???) and they will replace them. If they are not ARP Bolts - be thankful you found them now - not when everything was together - and they fail causing you to lose compression, lose coolant and basically come to a steamy annoying stop - possibly resulting in a warped head, and quite likely "allowing you" to get lots of experience removing sheared off bolts from your block.
One other option if you have access to a hardness tester is to get the bolt head hardness tested. A good ARP head bolt should be over Rc 35 - probably over Rc 40. Just by looking - those things look WAY SOFTER than that.
Guys I think I just found the problem, I think I overtightened the snot out of these bolts. Today I went to the store and bought a beam-type torque wrench and found out that, as these newer posts I'm reading say, 70 ft-lb is not all that much. I was able to hit 70 on it on all my bolts without really noticeably moving them. I then took it upstairs and rigged it up to my old click-style torque wrench this way:
By tucking one against my chest and pulling with the other until I felt the click, I found that the old one didn't click at the 30 lb-ft setting until the beam-style said over 40 lb-ft, and it didn't click at the 40 lb-ft until it said over 65 lb-ft. So I've tightened my head bolts in 3 passes it seems, with pass #1 at half torque, pass #2 at full torque, and pass #3 at god knows what torque and not on quite all the bolts.
Are these bolts for sure ruined, and the new head gasket? They were expensive
(That vise isn't attached to the table or to anything, just to the two wrenches, so they should have been pushing evenly against each other and nothing else)
Oh by the way, I called ARP and the guy sounded pretty sure they were not counterfeits with whatever it was I told him. He also doubted my torque wrench was the problem, but of course the funny access angle and not the wrench were ultimately causing the slips.
Last edited by LouisvilleLT4; 12-06-2015 at 04:28 AM.
Yes beam wrenches are irreplaceable. I use mine where ever practical. The only way they lose calibration is if u drop them or bend the beam.
Glad u found the source of the problem. It is a lesson u will never forget and many of us have been there also so your not alone.
If it were my car i would buy new bolts and head gaskets and replace. Maybe expensive and time consuming now but it will save u big time if u lose a head gasket later.
Yes beam wrenches are irreplaceable. I use mine where ever practical. The only way they lose calibration is if u drop them or bend the beam.
Glad u found the source of the problem. It is a lesson u will never forget and many of us have been there also so your not alone.
If it were my car i would buy new bolts and head gaskets and replace. Maybe expensive and time consuming now but it will save u big time if u lose a head gasket later.
I called ARP before ordering new stuff (hesitant because the bolts were $70, the gasket was $50 and the sealant was $10) and they reminded me that bolts can be checked. The bolt length tolerances for our car / bolts (the 3601's) are:
16 of them @1.750
4 of them @ 3.060
14 of them @ 3.780
I just pulled several out of my right head, where I successfully over-torqued most of them, and using measuring calipers all were about .01 shorter than those values.
They recommended if the bolts had not passed their yield point to just keep them, re-torqueing them the correct amount by loosening and tightening one at a time (so that the clamping force on the gasket doesn't release). Now I can save the parts I bought!!
So last night I got the right head's bolts all re-torqued to a more accurate 70 ft lb (except for the one below the AC condenser, screw that one) even with some of the bolt heads damaged. I'm ready to move on to the left head tonight and hopefully be done with all the slipping and sliding while assembling this car!!
12-01-2015, 08:53 AM
