Tom Piper

I am debating the issue of changing to R134a in my '92 AC system.

Does anyone know the current going price of a 14oz can of R12 freon these days?


Tom Piper

bogus

$$$$ IF you can find one.

The last time I checked, the 5lb containers are the only ones LEGALLY available. This does not take into consideration old stock :)

The 5lb containers are going for $1000.00 or so... that is reliable second hand info, tho.

383LPE

about 20 a can, available at most a/c houses and local auto outfits. You just need epa certificate to buy it. Those are available on the web after taking a bogus online test and mailing in your money.

Tom Piper

That's what I thought.
I now have 30 14oz cans and a 30 lb container that weighs 11 lbs gross weight, so I figure about 10 lbs in it.

What I am considering is selling this and doing a complete conversion to R134a. When I say a "complete conversion", I don't mean keeping the same components and using a conversion kit with "O" rings and changing the port connectors, etc. I am talking of putting the following components from a '94 that was designed for R134a in my '92: Compressor (actually, the '92 and '94 compressor are the same, but mine would have to be changed because it had R12 oil in it), evaporator, condenser, accumulator/dryer, and all hoses. If I do this, I can use PAG oil instead of Ester oil, and the entire system would be the same as a '94.

So, I am thinking, if I can sell my R12 stock, that should easily pay for the R134a parts.

So far, local Auto A/C shops have told me: "it sells for $80 a 12 oz can", "$40 a can", "I don't sell R12".

Tom Piper


[Modified by Tom Piper, 9:05 AM 2/24/2003]

Hooked on Vettes

As was mentioned by 383LPE the going rate for 14 oz cans is around $20.00
and 12 oz cans $15.00. You can purchase all you want at that price on E-bay.

Someone won an auction and purchased a 30lb container of R12 for $300.00

Autozone dumped their R12 supply last summer so the market was flooded with R12 12 oz cans..

There is no shortage of R12.

Your Vette doesn't take more than a couple of pounds or R12 so why change to R134A?

:confused:

SunCr

Bought mine at Autozone for $10 to $14 per can (the price was never the same at different stores). The last time I checked, about 2 months ago, they still had plenty and the counterperson told me it had been about a year since he sold a can. I'd look for other parts stores to start dumping it. Demand just isn't what it used to be after allmost 10 years of R134. Get your license online at http://www.epa.com for $25.

corvette-pilot

I had asked the shop I do a lot of biz with about this when I was looking at Vettes. I wanted to take into account the cost of repairing the R12 system if I found an earlier car.

Can't tell you how many I was seeing that the AC didn't work, EVERY person told me "it just needs a recharge". HA !

First problem is that the Freon leaked for a reason so a recharge wont help for long. Any station that will recharge the system wont risk it if you don't have the leak fixed first.

So by the time you finish having the system repair and refilled with R12 it will cost as much as having it refitted for the new stuff. Why not have it done right and in the future a recharge will be much easier to do.

Tom Piper

I'm not sure how others look at it; but, if I change to R134a, I want to use the PAG oil that OEM R134a systems do. The R12 mineral oil is not compatible with PAG oil. So, it is my understanding, most conversions to R134a use Ester oil instead of PAG oil. Therefore, if I convert, I want to replace everything that had the mineral oil in it -- that's the whole system.
Since the '94 AC parts will fit a '92 and they were designed for R134a, I think it would be best to use them.
If the R12 isn't worth much, I may as well use it up until I need major components, and then go with a whole new system for R134a.

My one concern is GM has a habit of discontinuing parts after about 7 years. Will I be able to buy all of the "new" parts when I want them?
Since I have enough mods, I won't be getting rid of this vehicle soon.

As far getting certified, since I already have a bundle of R12, I don't see any sense in it for me.

Tom Piper


[Modified by Tom Piper, 7:49 PM 2/24/2003]

SunCr

Bought some of the parts for my '89 including the compressor & condensor from the Last Detail http://www.tld-corvette.com which were new AC Delco. AC Delco's web site http://www.acdelco.com will give you part numbers & a description of anything they're still making. http://www.ackits.com is another resource for just about anything a/c and they sponsor a decent board with all sorts of expert advice. I've purchased hoses at my local dealer though any shop could fabricate if it came down to it. The Last Detail seems to have the cheapest price on the compressor. I believe your '92 and the '94 still uses the Nippondenso. Either should be compatible with both refigerents. New seals, also available at the Last Detail or your Dealer, are compatible with either system. Napa & ACkits carries a shaft seal kit (about 50 bucks) if you want or need to replace on your current compressor. Napa also sells a repair kit for the evaporator (if you wrench off the inlet getting to the orifice or just removing the hose). Most experts seem to recommend ester over PAG with R134. A good rebuild regardless of what you use would include a flush and a new dryer and you might throw in a new orifice. Harbor Freight Tools sells a compressor driven vacuum pump for chump change. It ain't great, but if you've got a decent size compressor (5hp or more) and run it for a couple of hours you'll pull most of the moisture out and it's better than pulling no vacuum at all. You may be able to rent a good one (none that I've checked with in EPA friendly/suit happy CA do). All GM dryers are now compatible with either R134 or R12, with 5 years being the standed recommended life span for change out. New low pressure switch is adjustable if switching gas (you'll want to turn it down a lb or two), though that might wreck havoc on the self diagnosis built into the control panel with a conversion.

best_vette_yet

I'v done a number of conversions and can tell you without a doubt the 134 doesn't cool worth a Sh** if the car wasn't designed for it. I doubt the 94 condensor was enlarged that much. To me that is where the problem lies with retrofitting to the 134 system.

Like you I have enough R-12 for my life time and my familys. Recently I have heard of a new freon to replace R-12 called R414B. Have any of you heard of this?

white90conv

I converted my '90 to R134a and it cools just fine on days where the outside temperature is 95F. I have never tried it on hotter days since it isn't often hotter around here (Northern California). It is a powerful air conditioner like other GM large cars. I did evacuate the entire system before recharging. Some people may get poor performance because they have too much oil or too much refrigerant in the system. As I recall, it takes about two 12 oz. cans of R134a (maybe a little more). It is recommended to adjust the low pressure cycling switch but I did not do that. I also converted a system in my Jag to R134a and it works as well as it did with R12 (that is, it is only fair). I don't think is is necessary to change parts on the Corvette to get excellent performance.

93LT1

I've converted to 134a and I have absolutly no complaints. It cools just as good as the R12. Bare in mind I live in Florida.
Hank

corvette-pilot

Every shop I asked about the difference in performance told me they are about the same EXCEPT at idle. FOr some reason the new stuff doesn't work well at idle. Every car I have had with this stuff I have noticed this.

Tom Piper

Are you talking about systems that were converted from R12 to R134a or systems that came from the factory with R134a?

Does anyone have a '92 or '93 with R12 that also has experience with a '94 or later that came from the factory with R134a? How does an R12 system compare with a factory (non-converted) R134a system? Especially, at idle?

Tom Piper

best_vette_yet

At idle in stop and go traffic is where 134A fails to keep up with an R12 system.

bogus

thats true even with cars factory equiped with R134a.

I asked my local AC expert a couple years back, and he said that the 92's and newer were designed as 'transition' systems.

the 92 only needs to get a new dryer and the system purged properly. and refilled correctly, of course.

Tom Piper

The only vehicle I have that has factory R134a is my 2002 Ford Ranger, and it doesn't have any problem in Florida's summers (100+) keeping me cool at idle.


I don't believe in converting the R12 system when the parts exist for a '94 that were designed specifically for R134a. Normally, when someone starts a conversion they have a leak and need several parts replaced anyway. And, one of the most common problems that cause a leak is the compressor seal. So, when the compressor is bad, it is prudent to replace the compressor, accumulator/dryer, orifice tube, and many people replace the condenser since that helps R134a. The only major component left to replace is the evaporator. So, why not do a complete changeover to R134a and buy the '94 Corvette parts that were designed for R134a -- plus you can use PAG oil instead of the ester oil? And, as an added bonus, from what I can find out they will fit with no problem.

Tom Piper


[Modified by Tom Piper, 7:42 AM 2/26/2003]