C4 Tech/Performance L98 Corvette and LT1 Corvette Technical Info, Internal Engine, External Engine

Starting problem.. 1989 C4

Old 06-12-2003, 07:37 AM
  #21  
SkipI
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (jfb)

Wet plugs don't always show up with a leaking injector. When the air/fuel is way too rich, the engine won't start easily. Also, your problem is intermittent and looking ONCE doesn't prove you don't have a leaky injector. And, a leaky injector also doesn't necessarily lower the fuel pressure, so your test by turning on the fuel pump for 5 seconds isn't conclusive. Spend the money and prove beyond the shadow of doubt by actual fuel pressure measurement that your injectors are or are not leaking.
Check your initial spark timing, and check each spark plug wire with your timing light to prove that each plug is firing. A vacuum leak will make it hard to start. Measure your manifold vacuum, look for vacuum leaks on ALL of your vacuum lines. Do you have any stored error codes? Check them. What is your TPS (throttle position sensor ) voltage? A stuck EGR valve can cause too low air/fuel ratio during cranking and hard starting. A defective MAF sensor can cause hard starting, try disconnecting it and attempt a start. Put a low power 12v lamp across each injector socket and observe that each is being pulsed when you crank the engine. Let us know what you find.
Timing was previously checked good. The throttle position sensor was checked and was 0.58 volts. I replaced the EGR valve when I replaced the intake manifold gasket a couple of months ago. I have a hand pump and tested all the vacuum lines and none of them dropped vacuum rapidly. Starting the engine with the MAF disconnected made no difference. I'll check all plugs with the timing light. I do not have the SES light on, I am sure I have stored codes since I have been disconecting things and starting the engine. I'll reset the codes and look later. I thought about putting the light on the injectors, but don't have a light yet. I am thinking about taking the car into the shop and letting them diagnose the problem and giving it back to me to fix. I would REALLY like to have a scan tool so I can see what is going on when the engine is starting. The service manual has a table to compare the data against. Thanks for the info... I do some more data gathering and get back with you... time to get a gage.

Skip
Old 06-12-2003, 08:00 AM
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TheCorvetteKid
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

Skip, don't feel bad about getting a fuel pressure guage. I know you're probably thinking "I've spent enough money and time on this stupid problem" but believe me, you will find that the guage is actually quite useful for more than just this problem.
Old 06-12-2003, 10:37 PM
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jfb
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

Intermittent hard starting can also be caused by a spark control module. I had that problem and replaced it.
Old 06-12-2003, 10:52 PM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (jfb)

Intermittent hard starting can also be caused by a spark control module. I had that problem and replaced it.
How would you test for something like that?
Old 06-13-2003, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (TheCorvetteKid)

Some auto parts stores can test spark modules, but since you have an intermittent problem, and who knows what the tester is looking for, I would recommend installing a new one since they aren't very expensive. When mine was giving me trouble, about 80% of my starts were long cranks.
Old 06-13-2003, 01:24 AM
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SunCr
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

My '89 was a hard start (cold) from the factory. Fuel pressure was normal - An injector balance test was normal (yeah I bought the tool that pulses each injector so you can note the pressure drop on your gauge) - and I replaced a ton of stuff over the years trying to improve it. Finally put in new injectors (Accels) and it fires right up. I even had Rich at Cruzin Performance look at the old ones and he couldn't find anything wrong with them. Go figure.
Old 06-13-2003, 07:48 AM
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SkipI
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (jfb)

Some auto parts stores can test spark modules, but since you have an intermittent problem, and who knows what the tester is looking for, I would recommend installing a new one since they aren't very expensive. When mine was giving me trouble, about 80% of my starts were long cranks.
You are talking about the module in the distributor and not the one by the blower fan, right??

Skip
Old 06-13-2003, 08:47 AM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

Yes, I am talking about the module in the distributor that pulses the spark coil.
Old 06-13-2003, 06:04 PM
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blackvette89
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

I am having a problem with my 89 vette. The engine takes anywhere from 5-8 seconds to start when cranking. Here is what I have done... new plugs, wires, fuel pump relay, dist. cap, rotor, and verified good timing. I have not checked fuel pressure because I don't want to spend $50 for a gage to use only once... instead, I jumpered the fuel pump on and cranked after 5 seconds of fuel pump run... no difference. I placed a timing light on the car and verified I had sparks while cranking... the light flashed fine. So, it is not the fuel pump, nor the spark plugs. I could place a test light on an injector to see if they are working? After it starts it purrs like a kitten all the time. It runs strong and without missing or any other problem. HELP!!

Thanks,
Skip
my 89 had similar cold start problem. i literally went thrugh a starter. after replacing uel pump,temp sensor (controls air/gas ratio) iac, relays, the problem was the ecm itself and it threw no codes. i haven't had the problem since! i hope you find it, i know your frustrations. :flag
Old 06-13-2003, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (blackvette89)

My 89 had similar cold start problem. I literally went thrugh a starter. after replacing fuel pump, temp sensor (controls air/gas ratio) IAC, relays, the problem was the ECM itself and it threw no codes. I haven't had the problem since! I hope you find it, I know your frustrations.
That's why I want to try and swap-out my ECM to see if it solves my problem (I don't need to start replacing starter motors).

When you replaced your ECM, did you replace the MemCal (the chip) as well? I have a spare ECM for my car, but it doesn't have a MemCal unit - I'm supposed to reuse the one that's in ECM in the car now.


[Modified by TheCorvetteKid, 5:47 PM 6/13/2003]
Old 06-13-2003, 11:09 PM
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blackvette89
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (TheCorvetteKid)

i used my old prom. so far it starts every shot. only problem is my fan only comes on at 236. i've been asking around for input on if this is normal. it used to come on at 228! or so. how bout yours?? :cheers:
Old 06-14-2003, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (blackvette89)

The factory prom turns on the fan at 228 F. 236 might just be a sensor error.
It looks like you found the problem, the ECM.
Old 06-14-2003, 09:47 AM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

I had asimilar problem on my 89 with an intermittent hard start and failure to start at times. Replaced most of parts mentioned here and finally the ecm. Solved the problem and hasn't missed a lick for over a year. Good luck. You should see if the injectors are being pulsed during the first 5 seconds of cranking but not starting. If not ecm could be the source of your frustration. :)
Old 06-14-2003, 01:55 PM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (jfb)

i bought a low temp sensor on at 200 off at 185 i'm goona see if it does the trick! i'll keeo you posted. just to be sure, this sensor is located on pas side of block?? :cheers:
Old 06-15-2003, 12:58 AM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (blackvette89)

I bought a low temp sensor on at 200 off at 185 i'm goona see if it does the trick! I'll keeo you posted. Just to be sure, this sensor is located on pas side of block?? :cheers:
Hey blackvette89, the temp sensor that controls when the fan comes on and off is the one on the intake manifold on the front of the engine (just below the throttle body). It feeds the information to the ECM; it's the ECM that turns the fan on and off. The sensors on the heads are used for other things. One is used for the gauge display on the dash, and the other is used to turn on the boost fan in front of the rad (I forget which of the sensors does what though).

It's funny that you mention this problem actually 'cause my car started doing the same thing. I still haven't tried to swap out my ECM to see if it cures my hard starting problem (I have a few other issues with the car that I am trying to address first) but after I took the heads off to change the headgaskets, I noticed that my fans have also beem coming on later than before. And at the same temps that you mention too. Funny thing is, I've checked my existing temp sensor and it seems fine. Hmmm...makes me wonder what this could be.


[Modified by TheCorvetteKid, 12:00 AM 6/15/2003]
Old 06-17-2003, 12:46 PM
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SkipI
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

As troubleshooting continues... I have noticed that when I attempt to start the engine and stop cranking before it starts, every time I begin my second attempt, the engine starts immediately. The new ignition module made no difference.

Skip
Old 06-17-2003, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

As troubleshooting continues... I have noticed that when I attempt to start the engine and stop cranking before it starts, every time I begin my second attempt, the engine starts immediately. The new ignition module made no difference.

Skip
Skip, I found the same thing with my car too. This is like history repeating itself - I've done all the things you are trying and nothing has solved the problem.

I guess there's only 2 things it can be: either the oil pressure switch or the ECM. Even though I have a spare ECM at home, I have the valve covers off and the rocker arms out of my car right now so I can't even swap out my ECM just to try; consequently changing the oil pressure switch wouldn't do any good either right now.

The oil pressure switch is fairly inexpensive and not too difficult to change (it's right next to the distributor and bolts straight into the top of the engine block). A rebuilt ECM is about $99-$150 from MidAmerica and is a worthwhile thing to have even if your current one is actually OK.

Continue with the diagnosis. All us hard-starting '89 owners are watching and waiting...

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Old 06-17-2003, 01:12 PM
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John Row
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

If it is annoying enough, maybe a call to Gordon Killebrew is in order.
http://www.gordonkillebrew.com/pages/800737/index.htm
Old 06-17-2003, 02:17 PM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (TheCorvetteKid)

I guess there's only 2 things it can be: either the oil pressure switch or the ECM. Even though I have a spare ECM at home, I have the valve covers off and the rocker arms out of my car right now so I can't even swap out my ECM just to try; consequently changing the oil pressure switch wouldn't do any good either right now.
Here is how, in my mind, the oil pressure switch is not the cause. The oil pressure switch, in accordance with the service manual, is used to run the fuel pump. I applied 12+ to the ALDL connection for the fuel pump, verified it running, and started the car. Same long crank. Since the ECM does not use the oil pressure switch for anything else, the oil pressure switch should not be the problem? :confused: So, I am looking at replacing the ECM. Update to follow......

Old 06-17-2003, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Starting problem.. 1989 C4 (SkipI)

I have the same problem also, car is a 88, Just put new motor in and it still is hard to start when hot. when cold it fires instantally. I've put one of the small fuel pressure gauges on and it stays hooked up all the time. It does show a presure drop, so I guess new injectors are in order,
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :mad

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