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Old 02-03-2004, 10:18 PM   #1
88-406
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Default Brodix vs AFR

Anyone care to comment? I'm thinking about playing with a set of fully cnc'd Track-1's. Anyone here use Brodix or are we all sold on AFR? I'm revamping my 383 with more compression and a solid roller. The goal is all out NA performance with 100 octane or less.

KM


[Modified by 88-406, 6:20 PM 2/3/2004]


[Modified by 88-406, 6:20 PM 2/3/2004]
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Old 02-04-2004, 08:25 AM   #2
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (88-406)

If I am not mistaken, Corkvette1 and Ski-down-it will be using Brodix heads on their new 434's. Do a search, Corky had his flowed and the numbers are exactly where they expected.
Both members had AFR on their 406's and I believe the motors air flow with the AFR heads were maxed out.

I am in the process of redoing my 383 with 11.5 to 1 compression, ported AFR 195s, ported SuperRam and same solid roller cam that Corkvette1 and Ski-dwn-it ran in their 406's. We fired up the new motor last night with straight headers after 2 cranks. I listened to the engine growl and I was in heaven. :hurray:

Good luck in your buildup.


[Modified by 85vet, 7:29 AM 2/4/2004]
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:20 AM   #3
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (88-406)

AFR 195
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:50 AM   #4
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (vader86)

I bought the track 1s too. Great head, quick turnaround and good service by M2. However if i had to do it over i would have waited for the AFRs, but your situation might be different. For me, my LPE headers wouldn't fit (Corky's did...i think his were older), my pro mags didn't fit (Corky's did...think mine were older) and my superram base is likely not going to fit either. And while we are optimistic, none of us have track results with the brodix heads yet. Corky and Jesse have the 227cc intake runners which checked out right on, i have the 215s, but they cc'd a little big at 220. So if those items are not issues for you, then the Track 1s seem like a nice alternative to waiting 3 months for a set of AFRs.

If you've got a comp ported set of 195s laying around and would rather have the track 1s.....contact me quickly...LOL.
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Old 02-04-2004, 10:28 AM   #5
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (ralph)

I am VERY pleased thus far with the Brodix Heads. And after seeing the recent quality issues with AFR, I am not entirely sure I would wait the three months to get a set of possibly flawed heads.

The 190s were maxed out, on our 406s. At 262CFM they were being pushed to the limits. But did perform well.

The 227cc heads were dead on the advertised numbers, actually a little better below .400 lift and dead on up top. At over 307CFM they are a hard head to beat. Hell they outflow most of the 18* heads down low and only give up ~10cfm up top. ~22HP potential, so for a 23* head..they are tough to beat.

Ralph is right though, we do not have any track time yet with the heads, but Corky and I did do quite a bit of "interviewing" at the track. We found several guys running the previous version of these heads. Mind you they did not flow as good as these ones we have do. And they were all running mid 9s. One guy had a 410CI motor, 2900# (so he is a little lighter, running consistant 9.5-9.6sec quarter times). I was behind him once on his launch and all I can say is HOLY CRAP...3ft wheelie, for about 20ft! While he is lighter than cork and I, we will have ~25CI on him, probably a more efficient setup with the EFI, so it should be a wash...however if I crank off a mid nines, i will be as surprised as the next person. We think high nines is possible.

As for the rocker arms and headers. I think Ralph, with project Satan, was again just unlucky. Both Corky and me had no problems with our Pro Mag 1.6 RRs fitting. I think Ralph found out he had an older set of Rockers and Comp corrected the problem for the 1.55 springs to clear.

Again with the headers, my Hooker (no smog equip) 1 3/4" Headers fit better than they did on the AFRs. I could drive a semi-truck to my spark plugs and park it between the spark plug and header tubes. Again I think Ralph was caught with a set of headers that were just not compatible.

If you have a set of Hooker headers, I think you will be fine and a set of new comp pro mags, neither of these issues will be a concern for you. And you certainly do not have to worry about a long wait or worry about quality issues with the bordix heads. These things are a VERY quality piece.

Lastly there should be a post not within a month or so with pictures side by side with the AFR heads. Also M2 doesn't nickle and dime you with sensor costs and milling is free if you want to reduce the chamber size for added compression like I did. :cheers:
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Old 02-04-2004, 02:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (ski_dwn_it)

my AFR heads out flow any 23* head and most of 18* heads out there my heads flowed over 325 intake and 235 ex the heads i have are AFR 215 raised runners



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Old 02-04-2004, 03:09 PM   #7
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (ski_dwn_it)

I have my AFR 195's up around the 290cfm mark (after major porting), so they are flowing nicely, but let me just say that I will never buy a set of assembled AFR's again. They cost me almost 2 years of diagnoses work to find out that they had installed two bad valves at the factory. After this and other's recent complaints, if you do go with AFR, buy them bare and have someone you trust assemble them.
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Old 02-04-2004, 03:14 PM   #8
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (red L98)

The raised runner 215 AFR are probably the baddest 23* heads around. With these heads its not just about runnier volume, the flow velocities of the 215's vs flow rates are considerably higher than heads with much larger runner volumes thus producing more power and more usable power in the lower RPM ranges, and of course lots of upper RPM power as well. :thumbs:
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Old 02-04-2004, 03:45 PM   #9
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (tjwong)

Guys,

Yes the raised runner heads are nice, BUT you should also mention that you will have to run a special shaft rocker assembly ~$1k, and do not count on standard headers fitting, although they might, but doubtful.

We also looked at these heads, but the little gain they had which was really only noticable at .400 lift was not worth the added cost/hassel of having them.

Although you are right, given the sizes of them, 215cc, they do flow like a ****.

Here is a graphical representation of some of the heads we all discussed here:

Click the image to open in full size.

:cheers:
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Old 02-04-2004, 04:19 PM   #10
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (ski_dwn_it)

Your right for the money I spent on the heads and all the extra stuff needed it came up to

Almost 5k thatís a lot off money if i knew about the heads that ski is running I

Know that would be my pick over the 215 but am happy with my motor and I

Know my car is a 9 sec car but canít get this thing to keep straight pulse am

Only 135 lbs hard to control a car that fast i have to baby the thing off the

line to make it hook yeah and ski did u buy the stroker crank yet if not i

know a place that sells them for a good price am talking less that 400 $

thanks guys :party:
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Old 02-04-2004, 04:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (red L98)

Redl98,

Funny you said $5K, I meant to put that in my post and forgot. As that is what we figured it would cost for the R.P. 215s That is a bunch more than 2100 for our 227ccs. Not to mention I forgot about the special intake it would need.

Most of the time when you see something that looks too good to be true, it usually is. That is why we were so shocked with the numbers these Brodix heads are putting out. And why we immediately took a set to an independant shop for flow tests. They have held up to the skeptisizm thus far.

On the crank, yeah we all have our cranks. .010/.010 under on the journals right? Reason they are so cheap. Which is fine in most cases, and does save some jingle..you just loose one rework if needed. But that is seldom needed if done right the first time.

:cheers:
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Old 02-04-2004, 04:37 PM   #12
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (ski_dwn_it)

yeah all that extra money i spent couldve been in the bank right now :lol:

good luck ski hope to see you this spring :hurray:
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Old 02-04-2004, 09:56 PM   #13
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (red L98)

I think if you ever CC'd those RR215s, you'd find them to be a lot bigger than that. And with the turned cranks, you also loose the nitriding hardness. This could become an issue with high HP and bearing wear. Mine was only turned on the mains, but it was also a defective design and hit my pistons. Eagle is going to try correct it now but if i had to do it again, my first call would be to Callies. They sometimes also have blems for a good price and when you get a crank from them, you know it will be right. The Eagle was NOT worth the headache....especially when i could have gotten a Callies for under $200 more. But enough on that...back to the head discussion.


[Modified by ralph, 8:57 PM 2/4/2004]
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Old 02-04-2004, 10:49 PM   #14
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (ralph)

Ski_dwn_it

What kinda power band are you looking for with the new engine? What compression ratio are you targeting? I was kinda looking at the M2-T1-215 for my 383 but I'm thinking I might be just as well off getting my AFR 210's a hand (port) job.

What's the true intake cc size of the T1-227?

Thanks

KM
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Old 02-04-2004, 11:02 PM   #15
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (88-406)

88-406,

The power band "should" be around 6300-6600, at the most 7k. But I doubt it will hit 7k. With the 406 and single plane with the 190s, it did hit 6300, but the bigger motor, should keep it about the same, even with the larger heads.

Corky cc his, I did not get around to doing mine yet. He said his were dead nuts on the 227cc.

I would NEVER get the 220s when you look at the below graph. They are wose than the 190s up to .300 lift, and fall WAY short on the upper end against the 227cc Brodix heads. And the 227cc kick but all the way across the boards. And are only 7cc larger, I can almost assure you the 220s will be bigger than 220cc also. Probably pushing 230cc, with less flow EVERYWHERE.

I personally think you would be better off with the 227cc Brodix. If a few of you guys get together, M2 will give you a discount on them. ~15%, so they come in at just over 2K. AFRs will be that much if you get them comp ported, which I still do not understand why there is a 600 dollar difference between race ready heads 100% CNC ported, and comp ported 100% cnc ported. Both are cnc'd why not just sell the comp ported for the lower price or just not sell the less version? But that is a whole different topic.... :rolleyes:

:cheers:
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Old 02-04-2004, 11:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (ski_dwn_it)

Thanks for the info Ski.

JFYI The whole reason I started this thread was to draw on the collective opinion. I own a set of AFR 210's race ready's. My plan for the motor this year was to add compression and more cfm and a solid roller.

Then I got to looking around and considered dumping the AFR's and buying Brodix. In the end (this evening) I decided to keep my AFR's and get some wo$$rk done to them. Ofcourse now after seeing your chart above I dought my AFR's even with re-work will compare to those monsters you guys have :nonod: but it'll be interesting none the less.

I chose to have a local (gal) that ports show me her stuff! :yesnod: She was quick to point out flaws left behind from CNC tooling. I guess there's a few places that just gotta be done by hand. I'll post the flow numbers and pictures when there done.

Kelvin
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:00 AM   #17
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Default Re: Brodix vs AFR (tjwong)

Quote:
The raised runner 215 AFR are probably the baddest 23* heads around. With these heads its not just about runnier volume, the flow velocities of the 215's vs flow rates are considerably higher than heads with much larger runner volumes thus producing more power and more usable power in the lower RPM ranges, and of course lots of upper RPM power as well. :thumbs:

the 215 raised port afr heads check in at 237-238 cc so there gos your velocity
all the afr heads check in at higher numbers than there advertised at
i havent checked a afr head that came in on the avetised number cc wise :cheers:
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Old 02-05-2004, 12:00 AM
 
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