ZR-1's In This Economy
11-09-2009, 02:44 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
ZR-1's In This Economy
I recently read this months corvette magazines. There were many articles about the 2009 ZR-1 as well as the 90-95 ZR-1's.
The article went on to talk about future collectibility of both the 2009 ZR-1 as well as the 1990-1995 models. Several experts on the panel were interviewed and gave their opinion as well as commenting on the first ZR-1s from 1970-1972. This panel happened to be printed in Sportcars Market Magazine.
I will hold my opinion because I'm not wanting the thread to become a debate. I just want everyones personal opinion and their reasoning behind their opinion. Typically the way BB62 responds to threads.
Now that being said, I don't think many of the current ZR-1 owners think they will make alot of $ on Zr-1's. Perhaps some of the original owners felt they would, just like some of the 2009 owners now. The thread is also not about drive the wheels off the car or garage queen.
Is the ZR-1 a long term hold? I feel its the most undervalued at this point in time. I just read a comment from a forum member the other day that the 94/95 values will plummet similar to some of the 90's.
I feel its a great model to enjoy and drive and hold onto and if you have the $, I think the ZR-1 will be the next car to have beause quite frankly in my opinion its not going to be 73-89.
I'm looking of adding another ZR-1 to the stable and I am definetly going sell my 93 and maybe my C5. Do you feel values will continue to plummet?
Personally, I think the values are really low mainly on the Distress sales and "Rougher" cars.
Try to keep the thread clean and ignore the Trolls threads of the people talking about the roach ZR-1's on ebay for $12,000-$14,000. In my opinion in this market, it still takes $20,000 to get something really really nice - IE showroom.
Opinion on low color production, years to have, ie 93 ruby, 94/95 Dunn Heads etc.
That being said, The ZR-1 was picked as the car to get in this current economy by I think Corvette Fever. This thread is not about, the Z06 is a better car yada yada yada, why buy a C4? So if that is your comment, please check it at the door
The article went on to talk about future collectibility of both the 2009 ZR-1 as well as the 1990-1995 models. Several experts on the panel were interviewed and gave their opinion as well as commenting on the first ZR-1s from 1970-1972. This panel happened to be printed in Sportcars Market Magazine.
I will hold my opinion because I'm not wanting the thread to become a debate. I just want everyones personal opinion and their reasoning behind their opinion. Typically the way BB62 responds to threads.
Now that being said, I don't think many of the current ZR-1 owners think they will make alot of $ on Zr-1's. Perhaps some of the original owners felt they would, just like some of the 2009 owners now. The thread is also not about drive the wheels off the car or garage queen.
Is the ZR-1 a long term hold? I feel its the most undervalued at this point in time. I just read a comment from a forum member the other day that the 94/95 values will plummet similar to some of the 90's.
I feel its a great model to enjoy and drive and hold onto and if you have the $, I think the ZR-1 will be the next car to have beause quite frankly in my opinion its not going to be 73-89.
I'm looking of adding another ZR-1 to the stable and I am definetly going sell my 93 and maybe my C5. Do you feel values will continue to plummet?
Personally, I think the values are really low mainly on the Distress sales and "Rougher" cars.
Try to keep the thread clean and ignore the Trolls threads of the people talking about the roach ZR-1's on ebay for $12,000-$14,000. In my opinion in this market, it still takes $20,000 to get something really really nice - IE showroom.
Opinion on low color production, years to have, ie 93 ruby, 94/95 Dunn Heads etc.
That being said, The ZR-1 was picked as the car to get in this current economy by I think Corvette Fever. This thread is not about, the Z06 is a better car yada yada yada, why buy a C4? So if that is your comment, please check it at the door
Last edited by xlr8nflorida; 11-09-2009 at 02:52 PM.
11-09-2009, 04:16 PM
#2
Drifting
Folks with the cash are looking for the best they can buy that will hold its value. Right now that does not include the ZR-1.
Once the bottom is ever found in the marketplace, some of those cash buyers will come after the best ZR-1 examples because it will be a value leader. A by-product will be a slow raise of all ZR-1s because people want what can't be had.
However I don't see any of that happening soon. The easy credit that we saw from years past that allow those without deep pockets to jump into the muscle car craze won't be there this time.
JMHO.
11-09-2009, 04:47 PM
#3
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How do you determine value?
If you spend $35K on a very low mileage gorgeous ZR-1, and hold it for 15 years, and the car is worth $100K in that time. You've "made" $65K, but how much have you spent?
15 years is 180 months, so let's say you spend $100 a month on insurance and maintenance. So, $65K-$18K=$47K.
Now, take into account the buying power of that original $$, and my guess is that you'd be better off just stashing the cash.
My money is on the 1995 ZR-1s bringing the money later in life, especially the rarer colors such as yellow and AB. Last year built and limited quantity.
If you spend $35K on a very low mileage gorgeous ZR-1, and hold it for 15 years, and the car is worth $100K in that time. You've "made" $65K, but how much have you spent?
15 years is 180 months, so let's say you spend $100 a month on insurance and maintenance. So, $65K-$18K=$47K.
Now, take into account the buying power of that original $$, and my guess is that you'd be better off just stashing the cash.
My money is on the 1995 ZR-1s bringing the money later in life, especially the rarer colors such as yellow and AB. Last year built and limited quantity.
11-09-2009, 05:03 PM
#4
Melting Slicks
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Consider this for projected value of buying a $20K well cared for ZR-1 in the current market. Your decision is to keep your $20K cash or complete the deal and buy it.
In three years it'll take $26K to buy that same $20K ZR-1. WHY? Because at the rate the Gov. is printing unsupported dollars every month it'll take 30% more dollars to purchase what you can buy today if the next three years follow the trends of the past year, and with the ever increasing US debt projections my 30% is probably understated & my grand children and their children can't afford to still be paying off! Think of how much you are paying for milk, berad, meat, clothes, car parts, etc today vs what they cost 2 years ago...that's our future unless things change fast.
In three years it'll take $26K to buy that same $20K ZR-1. WHY? Because at the rate the Gov. is printing unsupported dollars every month it'll take 30% more dollars to purchase what you can buy today if the next three years follow the trends of the past year, and with the ever increasing US debt projections my 30% is probably understated & my grand children and their children can't afford to still be paying off! Think of how much you are paying for milk, berad, meat, clothes, car parts, etc today vs what they cost 2 years ago...that's our future unless things change fast.
11-09-2009, 05:13 PM
#5
Race Director
Thread Starter
If you spend $35K on a very low mileage gorgeous ZR-1, and hold it for 15 years, and the car is worth $100K in that time. You've "made" $65K, but how much have you spent?
That is not even the beginning of it. It's the opportunity cost of the $35,000 spent vs. growing in the bank.
You would always be better off stashing the cash but you can't drive your bank account. Heck if I would have stored the cash today, I'd have 2 ZR-1s now in almost new condition for the same amount of $.
That is not even the beginning of it. It's the opportunity cost of the $35,000 spent vs. growing in the bank.
You would always be better off stashing the cash but you can't drive your bank account. Heck if I would have stored the cash today, I'd have 2 ZR-1s now in almost new condition for the same amount of $.
11-09-2009, 05:14 PM
#6
Race Director
Thread Starter
Consider this for projected value of buying a $20K well cared for ZR-1 in the current market. Your decision is to keep your $20K cash or complete the deal and buy it.
In three years it'll take $26K to buy that same $20K ZR-1. WHY? Because at the rate the Gov. is printing unsupported dollars every month it'll take 30% more dollars to purchase what you can buy today if the next three years follow the trends of the past year, and with the ever increasing US debt projections my 30% is probably understated & my grand children and their children can't afford to still be paying off! Think of how much you are paying for milk, berad, meat, clothes, car parts, etc today vs what they cost 2 years ago...that's our future unless things change fast.
In three years it'll take $26K to buy that same $20K ZR-1. WHY? Because at the rate the Gov. is printing unsupported dollars every month it'll take 30% more dollars to purchase what you can buy today if the next three years follow the trends of the past year, and with the ever increasing US debt projections my 30% is probably understated & my grand children and their children can't afford to still be paying off! Think of how much you are paying for milk, berad, meat, clothes, car parts, etc today vs what they cost 2 years ago...that's our future unless things change fast.
Agree 100% with you.
11-09-2009, 05:52 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Big problem is a ZR-1 is inarguably a discretionary purchase, and values will continue to deflate as with all other discretionary items. Big inflation is coming in non-descretionary items like food, oil, raw materials, etc., as all that printed cash chases a limited supply of staple goods.
But, as stated above, even what appears to be a "good" investment-class collector car probably isn't when you include all the carrying costs. Drive them, save them, do whatever to enjoy them, but don't bank your kids' college eduction on them as is currently being done with govt policy as far as the eye can see.
But, as stated above, even what appears to be a "good" investment-class collector car probably isn't when you include all the carrying costs. Drive them, save them, do whatever to enjoy them, but don't bank your kids' college eduction on them as is currently being done with govt policy as far as the eye can see.
11-09-2009, 09:25 PM
#8
Team Owner
There's a couple reasons I think values are down and will continue downward a little more.
1. There is a general perception by the buying community at large that ZR-1's are hard to work on and find a good mechanic. And in addition that there is shortage of parts, which also means replacement parts will be expensive.
2. I honestly think most people would rather have a newer more racy looking car. I walked onto a used car lot myself this past weekend and did not immediately recognize a C4 was a ZR-1. At first glance from the side, I thought "Hey there's a C4". As I walked up to it, then I saw the deep dish sawblades and, "Hey, this is a ZR-1". Think about it. How many people know you're driving a special car when they see you? People nowadays want a lot of flash and show
1. There is a general perception by the buying community at large that ZR-1's are hard to work on and find a good mechanic. And in addition that there is shortage of parts, which also means replacement parts will be expensive.
2. I honestly think most people would rather have a newer more racy looking car. I walked onto a used car lot myself this past weekend and did not immediately recognize a C4 was a ZR-1. At first glance from the side, I thought "Hey there's a C4". As I walked up to it, then I saw the deep dish sawblades and, "Hey, this is a ZR-1"
. Think about it. How many people know you're driving a special car when they see you? People nowadays want a lot of flash and show
11-09-2009, 11:05 PM
#9
Safety Car
i firmly believe it lies in the direction in which the auto industry will go.
Long post made short. IF everything electric takes off and future emissions laws force the internal combustion engine the way of the dodo the zr1 will always be valued and respected.
If things go the way they are going we will be seeing direct injected twin turboed minivans making 500 hp in less than 10 years. The base corvette will probably have 700 and the zr1 will fade but always remain more expensive than the base c4.
As much as I do love the c4 zr1 I personally have my heart now set on a c5 z06 when comparing the 2. The difference is the potential/$.
Long post made short. IF everything electric takes off and future emissions laws force the internal combustion engine the way of the dodo the zr1 will always be valued and respected.
If things go the way they are going we will be seeing direct injected twin turboed minivans making 500 hp in less than 10 years. The base corvette will probably have 700 and the zr1 will fade but always remain more expensive than the base c4.
As much as I do love the c4 zr1 I personally have my heart now set on a c5 z06 when comparing the 2. The difference is the potential/$.
11-09-2009, 11:23 PM
#10
There's a couple reasons I think values are down and will continue downward a little more.
1. There is a general perception by the buying community at large that ZR-1's are hard to work on and find a good mechanic. And in addition that there is shortage of parts, which also means replacement parts will be expensive.
2. I honestly think most people would rather have a newer more racy looking car. I walked onto a used car lot myself this past weekend and did not immediately recognize a C4 was a ZR-1. At first glance from the side, I thought "Hey there's a C4". As I walked up to it, then I saw the deep dish sawblades and, "Hey, this is a ZR-1". Think about it. How many people know you're driving a special car when they see you? People nowadays want a lot of flash and show
1. There is a general perception by the buying community at large that ZR-1's are hard to work on and find a good mechanic. And in addition that there is shortage of parts, which also means replacement parts will be expensive.
2. I honestly think most people would rather have a newer more racy looking car. I walked onto a used car lot myself this past weekend and did not immediately recognize a C4 was a ZR-1. At first glance from the side, I thought "Hey there's a C4". As I walked up to it, then I saw the deep dish sawblades and, "Hey, this is a ZR-1"
. Think about it. How many people know you're driving a special car when they see you? People nowadays want a lot of flash and show1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
Last edited by bb62; 11-09-2009 at 11:30 PM.
11-10-2009, 12:09 AM
#11
Drifting
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I don’t agree with either point in your assessment.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
11-10-2009, 12:17 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Aug 1999
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I don’t agree with either point in your assessment....... the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K? .....
.II. It represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.......
.II. It represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.......
Last edited by ZRWON; 11-10-2009 at 01:00 AM.
11-10-2009, 12:21 AM
#13
Safety Car
I don’t agree with either point in your assessment.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
11-10-2009, 01:24 AM
#14
Team Owner
I don’t agree with either point in your assessment.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
I'd love to see the days when everybody is trying to get their hands on one
11-10-2009, 03:03 AM
#15
Race Director
Thanks for the very interesting assessments of our beloved ZR-1s.
I always enjoy those knowledable opinions.
Regardless of what happens in the market, the "fun factor" of driving a ZR-1 trumps the investor postion imho. Unless you have a ZR-1 driver that you plan to keep around when the urge strikes you, investing in cars like these makes little sence to me. Investing 20K to 50K in long term commodities ( if their was such a thing ) makes more sence than buying any car and waiting for it to appreciate considerably. Besides, what will you have after the tranaction besides some money that really doesn't affect your lifestyle? If you had money to pay cash in the 1st place then you should have invested in a faster appreciating commodity anyway. My car is an investment in my well being... and that pays off many times better that my driver doubling in price next year. If you don't think thats true for me, then you don't how good life can be. Well, I will have to take that back... anybody that buys a ZR-1 does understand how good life can be!
I always enjoy those knowledable opinions.
Regardless of what happens in the market, the "fun factor" of driving a ZR-1 trumps the investor postion imho. Unless you have a ZR-1 driver that you plan to keep around when the urge strikes you, investing in cars like these makes little sence to me. Investing 20K to 50K in long term commodities ( if their was such a thing ) makes more sence than buying any car and waiting for it to appreciate considerably. Besides, what will you have after the tranaction besides some money that really doesn't affect your lifestyle? If you had money to pay cash in the 1st place then you should have invested in a faster appreciating commodity anyway. My car is an investment in my well being... and that pays off many times better that my driver doubling in price next year. If you don't think thats true for me, then you don't how good life can be. Well, I will have to take that back... anybody that buys a ZR-1 does understand how good life can be!
11-10-2009, 06:01 AM
#16
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Member Since: Jul 2009
Location: Shepherdstown WV
Posts: 54
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I don’t agree with either point in your assessment.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
Just my .02!
11-10-2009, 07:02 AM
#17
Team Owner
Member Since: Jan 2000
Location: Kennesaw, GA www.96LT4.com
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Go drive one, and I bet your tone changes. I had 2 C5 convertibles, and will never own another one. The power was there, but the headlights drove me nuts!
11-10-2009, 09:08 AM
#18
Race Director
Thread Starter
Great responses in this thread so far.......
11-10-2009, 10:17 AM
#19
Drifting
I don’t agree with either point in your assessment.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
1. As the owner of a 67 435HP coupe that is all original, I can tell you without any reservation that it is an incredibly expensive vehicle to have work done on it. And the rarity of parts can even surpass the ZR-1 LT5. The L71 (That’s the 435HP motor) uses a transistorized ignition system that would cost you anywhere from $1200-$2000 to get right if something is wrong. Very few people know how to properly set up the tri-power Holley carburetors to effect the best combination of power and drivability. The problems with setting this engine up are legion – and yet – people flock to this car. Why would that be if as you state finding good mechanics and finding good parts are difficult for the L71? Shouldn’t the even HIGHER costs for the L71 force the vehicle price down compared with the LT5 ZR-1? No – because this relationship doesn’t work – there are other factors.
2. So a ZR-1 looks a lot like the base C4. Well, the 67 L88 looks EXACTLY like a 67 L36 (390HP) on the outside and has very few tell-tale signs in the interior. So why does a 67 L88 go for $1.5M and a L36 top out around $125K?
The truth is not the lack of “C4 identity” or potential expense. The real “problems” with the ZR-1 from a current value perspective are:
A. It’s still perceived as a relatively new car. Let’s face it any car from the 90s is still a new car from a technological perspective. I see that every time I jump into my 67 from the ZR-1. New cars depreciate here old classics appreciate. The ZR-1 will take some time before people view it as an “old classic”.
B. It’s a C4……No this is not to be derogatory about C4s… It’s just meant that C4s are at the bottom of the depreciation cycle. Most C4s out there that are actually driven much are near or at the end of their life span. The view that anyone can buy one of THOSE cars will hold down values until most of the higher mileage cars start to disappear. Think this isn’t true? Then have you priced a 69 Camaro lately? Or a 70-72 Camaro? They were dirt cheap and considered the ultimate car for the proverbial trailer trash. No so now.
C. As something of a corollary to point A, the C4 ZR-1 is viewed as being from the same performance generation as the C5 Z06 and the C6 (pick an engine) and until something dramatic in the market takes place – they will likely to be linked together – much the same way that a 66 425HP 427 wouldn’t be out of place running against a 62 360HP 327 Fuelie. And consider that the 62 360HP is usually worth no less than the 66 425HP in the marketplace even given the lower power. Value and power across Corvette generations is not an absolute relationship.
So just what does the C4 ZR-1 have going for it:
I. First and foremost – it’s a Corvette. There’s something about all Corvettes that ultimately ties them all together. It won't end up being an orphan like anything from American Motors, or a Ford T’Bird.
II. It’s represents the pinnacle of the C4 generation. 53 Corvette (special case), 57 Fuelie, 67 Solid Lifter Big Block, 69 ZL-1, 94 Z06, 09-10 ZR1. Each was the pinnacle of their respective generation and had (has) something very special to offer. The C4 ZR-1 fill that role implicitly.
III. It’s the only Corvette with 4 valve per cylinder technology. A million and a half Corvettes produced and only about 7K produced with this engine. That’s special.
IV. Absolutely the rarest engine architecture. Millions of big and small blocks. Millions of later gen LS blocks. Only 7K LT5s.
V. By comparison with other generation's special performance cars –
a. Over 9,000 fuel injected C1s
b. Over 11,000 solid lifter big block C2s
c. About 15,000 solid lifter or tri-power C3s
d. Over 28,000 C5 Z06s
e. Over 27,000 C6 Z06/ZR1s (and still producing)
f. Kinda makes the fewer than 7,000 LT5s look rare as a special engine option.
VI. It is undoubtedly the best LOOKING Corvette engine ever produced (and this from someone who also has a 67 tri-power 435HP L71.
VII. It represents Chevrolet’s re-entry into the high performance sports car market after an absence of nearly 20 years. In my book, the last no holds barred Corvette before the ZR-1 was the 71 LS6.
VIII. Oh, and compared to that LS6, the ZR-1 was considerably more powerful having at least 50 more HP. Yes it was rated at 425HP. But that was the gross rating. The LS6 was also rated at 325net – 50 HP less than the 90 ZR-1. And a full 80 HP less than the 95 ZR-1 (and maybe as much as 100HP if the Dunn head flow is ever proven rather than suspected).
IX. From the perspective of long term high speed – the C4 ZR-1 may STILL be the fastest road car in the world if 24 hours or 5000 miles is your goal. Sure the new ZR1 will hit 200 mph – but will the supercharger last 24 hours? The LT5 sure will.
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
well said!!!!!
11-10-2009, 01:14 PM
#20
Racer
So, what does that mean for value in the future. In my mind, the best I can suggest is that the C4 ZR-1 is similar to the 58 Corvette. Unloved for a long time by the majority of even the Corvette world as having overwrought styling, it is today probably the third most valuable year corvette of all the classics – after the 53 and the 67. At some point, the C4 ZR-1 will get this level of recognition – it just may take some time.
Many friends of mine look at my Z and say "So what's so special about a C4 with a different engine" and the "It doesn't look any different than any OLD Corvette that I see today." These comments are quickly withdrawn when that person feals the power and hears the unmistakable song of this 20 year old LT-5 at full throttle.
Time is the ultimate judge, long after the tens of thousands of C4 L-83's L-98's and LT-1's have gone to the bone yard the few LT-5's will still be running strong. The best feature of our ZR-1's and the ultimate difference between it and ALL Corvettes! IMHO
