Slowridr

I had a regular C4 years ago. Sold it. Always liked the Z. Im starting to think I may get one in the next year or less. I want to drive it though. I dont want to have to worry about doing major work to it if road racing. I know if thats needed it will need to be shipped somewhere. Im in Atlanta so SGC would be the place. In any case Big Bend and Road Atlanta would definitely be places where I would like to run it.

Would I be better off getting a C5Z for this as far a reliability and access to parts goes? Look I realize these ZR-1s are between 20 and 25 years old so there will be some maintenance if pushed some I just dont want to be working on it more than I'm driving it. I really love the idea of having a rare car but driving is more important at this point for me. I searched on this board about road racing these cars and found real old posts. I did see a post of someone running a ZR-1 recently in Maryland I think and had a good time. Im more concerned about reliability though.

Any and all input would be appreciated.

FASTAZU

Lots of ZR-1 owners drive and race them. Would a C5 be a better match for you only you can answer that. You really need to drive both and see what fits your needs,

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25722

Everything you will ever what to know about the ZR-1 can be found here.

http://zr1netregistry.com/Home.aspx

mike100

A C5 would absolutely be better for track use. This isn't even a ZR-1 related argument. There just isn't as much stuff you can do to a C4 to make it keep up with a lightly modded C5. ZR-1 specific though- they are front heavy and will just put that much more demand on the smaller brakes and on tighter corners, can understeer suddenly- at least much more than a standard C4 with a smallblock.

Also- there is going to be better spare parts support for a C5- once again, not really a ZR-1 issue, although the LT5 would be that much more of a challenge over the 350 sbc. That said the LT5 is really robust and a joy to drive. I think of it more as an open road or GT street car.

ZR1Bob

I drive mine regularly and occasionally track it. I have put 12,000 trouble free miles on my 1995 ZR-1 since my 2012 purchase and put 70,000 miles on the 1993 that I owned before it, both including occasional track time and drag racing, including half mile runs. Here is a video of my run at the NCM track last May at the gathering:
Note this was billed as a "touring" event so no helmets, plus no "on the edge" driving due to a somewhat timid driver.

I have never had a breakdown with either car over 20 years that left me stranded, and parts have always been available. I am sure as noted above a C5 with its newer technology would be superior at the track, but I have always enjoyed the ZR-1, plus it is way cooler and rarer than any C5. --Bob

Tom400CFI

100%. This is all absolutely correct. A Z06 would beat a ZR-1 on a track, handily, and cost less doing it. As much as I love a ZR-1, it would be more expensive, and not competitive.

If you want a track car first, that you drive on the street, C5 Z06. If you want a ZR-1 b/c it's a ZR-1 (and I totally "get" that), you could track it. It's not a great "track focused" car, however.

Demps

All valid points above. I'd ask what your intent would be. C5 could/should be faster and cheaper/easier to use. With that said, I chose a ZR-1. I do it for enjoyment. There's no trophy or prize, per say, but I get to enjoy the greatest engine during performance driving. I do it for the LT5, inspite of the C4.

I have a '91 set up by MTI and SGC. Ported 350, roll bar, coilovers, brakes, seats, radiator, tires, etc. I have as much fun as anyone out there. Motor doesn't like sustained revs but pulls like a banshee to red line, [nose] heavy and requires some finesse, C4 platform is a mess, BUT I am tracking a ZR-1. Folks come around to see the "unicorn" afterwards. It's great!

I've come to the conclusion that a lot of intelligent folks before me have: some one will always have more money, more power, older whisky, younger women, etc but they can't beat my happiness!

Ted

Slowridr

I appreciate the responses! I had a sneaking suspicion that what was said would be said. I will check the links you guys posted while in line to pick up my son from school in a few minutes.

My mindset is this. I love the rarity and gravity of the C4Z. Im just that kind of person I like those kinds of things. I dont need to please anyone and I could care less what people thought about the car being old or technically beneath the later generations of Vettes (I think my wife made me numb to that mindset, lol, she doesnt like older cars, lol), Im just wanting to have a cool car that I could do a run at Big Bend, I think there is a road race in Nebraska too thats similar, and of course here at Road Atlanta. I just dont want something that Ill end up spending a lot of money working on instead of driving. Ive got 2 projects I'm goimg to be finishing up by next spring and Im done with project cars. I want to drive.

I sensed the C4Z wouldn't be troublesome and if thats the case Ill probably be leaning that way. Personally speaking I think it would be cooler to drive than a C5Z.

I loved the links and video. So there are some folks here in Atlanta with C4Zs driving Road Atlanta, cool. That's definitely what I want to do. Interesting info in that thread about suspension and brake considerations. If those are the results of tracking these cars I dont mind.

Here is a video of someone running Big Bend.
Can a C4Z sustain this kind of speed for 20 or more miles like this 2009 C6 Z51? The actual course is 59 miles each way? I know they are 2 different beasts but this is one of the things I would like for it to do and not be troublesome.

I do realize that the C4Z either holds or held the endurance record. Found that on the NET registry site. That leads me to believe that 20-30 minutes at around 140mph should not hurt this car. Does anyone think different?

Tom400CFI

This sounds totally reasonable.


Probably not w/out modifications. The C6 is several hundred pounds lighter than the C4Z, yet has much bigger, thicker brake rotors, with bigger pads, bigger calipers, etc. My C4 (not a ZR1) would over heat it's brakes in two laps at Miller Motorsports park, here in UT. It's a 4.5 mile lap, approximately, so in less than 10 miles, the brakes were 10-7. My car didn't have that J55 brakes that the Z has, but it's also a couple hundred pounds lighter, and 100 hp less. I fixed mine w/C5 front brakes. Other than the brakes, I think the ZR-1 could meet your 20 mile goal just fine.

EDIT: just watched the Big Bend vid....not sure you'd need much brakes there.

A26B

Not a problem at all. This is what the ZR-1 concept was designed to excel at......... and it does.

SAM/CH ZR-1

Let me tell you from my made experiences:

I do live here in Switzerland, just about 150 meters from the german border. Maybe you know in Germany they have some speedlimit free highways. It's fun to drive on their Autobahn's. I use to test the LT5's for relibility and durability. The pleasant thing is, it often happen you find there other fast car brands like: Maserati, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche etc.. Most german car drivers like to boast and show how fast their cars perform and they also like to teach us ZR-1 drivers a lesson. To make it short:
We often drive distances of about 50 miles and more with speed ranges of 100-185 miles per hour. No issues with a 383 cui LT5. The engine run great under all circumstances. The other car drivers are surprised when they get the lesson not to mess up with a ZR-1

Sam

gbrtng

my 91 has over 5000 HPDE miles and no driveline problems. Used up a bunch of tires, rotors and brake pads plus a few wheel bearings. I know a 91 owner in the Chicago area who has well over 25000 HPDE and One Lap miles on his - same story ...

Give me a call, I'll make you a deal, and you won't be slowridr any more ...

Dominic Sorresso

As for reliability, the LT-5 is an "anvil". GMs torture testing of the motor included 200hrs of constant WOT back to decel, up and down the rpm range. And it's still the only production vehicle to have held the 24hr. Speed/distance record. Having said that, the Z06 is a go-kart in comparison. So more adept for track purposes. I think for longer tracks the LT-5 would be a lot of fun. Tight courses, the ZR-1 tends to be a bit ponderous and nose heavy. However, some relatively inexpensive mods can be made to the ZR-1 when it comes to suspension(coil overs) and brakes(C6Z06) to improve those areas.
On the issue of rarity, hands down the ZR-1.

Slowridr

I am seeing from some of the responses that I can be comfortable with doing open road racing with the ZR-1 (Big Bend type stuff) more short burst type stuff found with road racing like at Road Atlanta I could do but the car will not be as fun as a ZO6. So I guess I need to talk to some guys that have made these mods and see how the C4 ZR-1 feels to them. Some of yall may be getting some PMs, lol. I am not aspiring to be a race car driver so it sounds more and more like this may work for me. Still please provide anymore input you think may be helpful.

Tom400CFI

Actually the test was 400 hrs, WOT the entire time, tq peak to hp peak cycling. Same as every other GM engine.

LT5corsa

I've just started to drive my car on the track and had a blast!!! The car "even with stock brakes" can be used on the track but with minor improvements.... You can have a really fun car!!!

A good friend in Annapolis MD, is an original owner of a 1990 ZR-1 and has 106k miles with 25%+++ HPDE. Only items done to it are upgraded C5 brakes / rotors / pads and basic maintenance (injectors / coil packs / fuel pumps / etc)

Stock otherwise...

Drive one and you'll understand



David

Meanmyz

As Jerry (A26B) said, the ZR-1 really excels at open road race type events. Maybe even more than a Z06 if extended high speed is the need?... Someone help me on this...I can't remember if it was just the base C5 or did it involve Z06's too, where there were transaxle heat problems when run in open road races, creating the need for transmission coolers.

Race track and lots of transitions, yes Z06. That is what it excels at. High speed GT, ZR-1.

I have a few friends in the Nebraska area that run SORC (many other open road race venues also). A few of them are heavy into ZR-1's.

A couple of years ago, I was asking a friend, Joe Shown, about his experience with the ZR-1 and 4.10 gears (I was thinking about 4.10s for my car, which I subsequently did do). He sent me a CD of his run in a since discontinued open road race in Nevada. He was running 4.10's, meaning higher rpms. Through the race, I am guessing he was consistently around 150 (most of the time I couldn't read the speedo because of sun glare), with blasts past 165. After he passed the finish line and was slowing down, one thing I remember was him commenting to his navigator, "hey, look at this thing, all the gauges are reading normal". I don't know if he had any coolers or aftermarket radiator...I don't know without asking him. That car (not is yellow 415) was pretty close to stock.

At this year's SORC, 4 or 5 of the cars were C4 ZR-1's, and they do good at this venue.

As a matter of fact, in the one mile shoot out, two ZR-1s had what basically amount to a 500HP/350 package and they were only about 5 miles an hour slower than the C7 Z06's through the mile! One Z06 (with Z07 package) was driven by a very experienced racer. He had taken the wickerbill extensions off of his rear spoiler for the event.

Now, no flaming... We all agreed that the Z06's were underperforming and the comments were just that there "are some issues with them that GM still needs to be sorted out".

Tom400CFI

^


Do you happen to know, or could you see what RPM's your friend was turning for that event, w/the 4.10 gears?

Meanmyz

I don't know. I will have to dig out the CD and watch it again...(no arm twisting required).

I don't think Joe would mind, so I will cut and paste a few sentences from his email back in Feb. 2014.

"Hello Jeff,

You should receive a DVD in a few days. On it you will see my red ZR-1 running in the 150 MPH class at the Wendover 100 in 2005 (I think it was 2005). The car had the top end package done by Marc and was dyno’d at 402 Hp at the wheel. The car has 4.10’s and is running as fast as 180 MPH through the speed trap. Most of the time I am running over 160 MPH. If you look carefully at times you can see the speedometer. As you will see with 4.10’s the car is loafing at the 160+ mark in sixth gear and is not over reved at that speed in 5th gear."

And... "The best one mile speed for the 415 car is 185.3. My 91 would typically run 162-164. A stock ZR-1 will run about 150 in the mile at our location. You will be wasting your time with anything other than 410’s".

As you can see, Joe loves 4.10's. I love the 4.10's in my car too. But I have nothing against the 3.45's either...depends on your goals.

I will say that with my 510 package, the 4.10's have only added to the fun and I am glad that I did them for this car.

Joe talks about going 180 with 4.10's. Some people have said that you can't go that fast with 4.10's, as you run out of rpm. I believe Joe.

A quick story as it relates to my experience, which isn't nothing compared to these guys that get to stretch the cars legs a lot: A couple of weeks ago, I took my 510/350 car out. It was dark out/headlights up. I am leaving an intersection in a very rural area. I gun it and wind her out. Now, with the light weight fly wheel and 4.10's and cool air....well, it is magical...listening to that Corsa exhaust. Things happen so quickly that you have to make sure you don't hit the rev limiter. ...There is a time where prudence should kick in, you've had your fun and you let off. But...I stay in it longer. I didn't mark off a mile, but in about that much time I look down and see that 164 has flashed across the screen. Ok, this is stupid. Let off.../but there is a grin on my face . ...Dang this thing goes! Did I mention the permagrin on my face?

The point in bringing that story up, is...I know I wasn't at redline...I can't remember where it was, but it wasn't redline, and with the right environment and time, there was more there. For prudence, it was time to slow down. I don't doubt Joe's claim in still being able to hit 180 (or close).

I don't mean to get off topic with 410's or otherwise. The point for the OP is, the ZR-1 is a great car for a venue such as open road racing. There is nimble, and quick (Z06) and there is fast (ZR-1). To the Star Wars guys, the ZR-1 is the millennium falcon (not the newest out there), but it will leave people scratching there heads!

Meanmyz

Say it isn't so Glen. You aren't selling the Turq, are you?

Zrxmax

I ran my Z in the 150 mph class at the open road race SSCC 2005 event.

It was a blast and the car ran almost flawlessly. It did cut out once for about a second while accelerating out past the end of the Narrows as they are called. Never did find out why.

My rebuilt ( installed before I bought it ) trans couldn't take the heat even though I ran 5th gear while using the 3.07 gear ratio in the rear end.

After a cool down in Vegas before heading home my trans developed a multitude of new sounds as the caged needle bearings inside the trans turned to junk.

I also made a 34 minute in car video of that run so I can review those moments when the car would pitch so hard the back wheels would lose contact with the road momentarily.

It was like riding in a boat sometimes... and a real blast for the thrill seeker in me !

I have a Ron Davis radiator in my car and if I recall correctly my car was fitted with the "Big Mouth" air scoop to direct more air through the radiator. The highest engine temp I saw was 194 F.

Keep in mind I didn't lift for the 1st eleven miles of the 90 mile course.

I also used a new set of Sumitomo tires for that run and they performed very good in my opinion. Next time I will be on Nitto 555s.

The rear end was 192 F on the rear cover a few minutes after completing the run.

I believe this downhill course allowed me to hit the 180 mark a number of times during the run.

If I knew how to post it up on You Tube from my CD player in the computer I would do it. Shouldn't be to hard if I look into it.

My average speed was 156 mph. Check the link below... I am number 12 in the 150 class.

http://www.sscc.us/event_results/results-05-norc.htm

Personally speaking after accumulating 135 k on my Z... my opinion is you could run 150 mph for an hour 5 times a week ( wouldn't that be a great commute? ) and never hurt the motor.