Mopar Jimmy

It has become very clear to me the last 1.5 years that it is almost silly to run BOOST on a stroker LSX motor as the stock cubed 346 LS1/6 motor with best forged internals or stock cubed forged LS2 motor, will make MORE POWER than you will ever need at 14lb+ boost or could ever hook up on the street (unless your doing SERIOUS DRAGRACING) and certainly is more reliable and is has LESS ISSUES than F/I stroker LSX motors.

The big cubed motors that are BLOWN are a tuner's dream from a profit perspective and a waste of $ in my opinion if your going F/I with forged internals. Now on a N/A LSX motor, by all means BIGGER IS BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!

0Slowhawk

There is alittle misconception going on here.The main reason you should want a stroker is to get more average power.

Take a 700hp 346 and a 700hp 402ci. The 402 will destroy the 346,say in a 4th gear roll because the 402 will probly push 100hp/100tq more than the 346 in the midrange.

When building a fast street car you are better off looking at the power advantage at 3k,4k,5k rpm area. Forget about peak hp crap,thats just for who has the biggest ***** at the car show

Mopar Jimmy

YEAH, that's true but your missing the point on a few things when it comes to the BIG PICTURE concerning overkill, reliability and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$! Tell me a 740+rwhp/635+rwtq, Procharged/Paxton Novi 2000 car with a forged 346 motor, does not make MORE than enough power across the entire RPM band and one wil never come CLOSE to hooking up that power on the street. Anything above this really becomes just bragging rights on a vette that sees 99% of its action on the streets and highway. Now if someone is a hardcore drag racer like ASMOKEGEARS, etc., etc., then its a different story altogether, and of course the bigger cubed blown LSX motor assuming it hooks up with slicks and does not frag the drivetrain parts on a C6 which are WEAK at these power levels, should beat the stock cubed motor in a 1/4 mile race.

Maybe not, after seeing PAULS forged 346 LS6 twin turbo black C5 with LS6 heads run constant 8s in the 1/4 mile and clearly one of the fastest street driven C5s in the country and after seeing optic Z06 putting the first manual tranny stock cubed C5 (Z06) into the 9s on stock supension a couple of years ago at that!

My point is that you can make all the STUPID POWER in the world across the entire rpm band on a stock displacment LSX F/I forged motor, more than 99% of the folks here will ever be able to use on the street and have a motor that is NOT ONLY CHEAPER than the STROKER forged LSX motor, but also more maintenace free/more dependable and should last longer between engine builds!! This being said IMHO the bigger cubed f/i LSX motors are a waste of money and all about bragging rights, etc., etc.

SLOHAWK, I am sure you may disagree, but there are several top respected tuners on this board who do agree about the overkill factor of the bigger cubed LSX F/I motors (see DOUG at ECS below) and the fact that you can make ALL THE STUPID POWER in the world and run well into the 8s and maybe even high 7s with a properly built forged LSX stock cubed F/I motor and the smaller motor will last longer and have less issues (oil consumption, belt slippage on cent. superchargers, general engine wear, etc., etc.). Heck if N/A Stroker LSX motors are NOTRIOUSLY known for drinking oil vs there stock LSX crank/stroke counterparts and yes I have seen MANY HORROR stories now on N/S stroker motors built by tuners with top notch reputations drinking oil like water!!! Turns out that even my old professionally built N/A 427 C5R motor turned out to have MAJOR oil consumption issues and had to be rebuilt after only 5K miles and it was built by a tuner here that use to have one of the top 3 reputations in the US (that tuner not part of my name now) for crying out loud!! Before that the same tuner built me a 427 LS6 N/A iron block motor that freakin FAILED with only 4000 miles on it when the reluctor wheel and crank welds on a BRAND NEW CALLIES 4.125 inch crank failed and the ENTIRE MOTOR had to be rebuilt also. Do you think this would have happend with a stock cubed forged LS6 motor?

When is enough enough? ANd when is too much just plain stupid when it comes to headaches, creating a MEGA MONEY PIT and all the other issues associated of going with crazy and not keeping things as simple as possible for one's forged LSX F/I motor?

My current set-up in my sig after 6000 miles on a bone stock LS6 10.5 compression LS6 motor has had 0 issues, as i am running a premiere Cent. Supercharger complete kit, had it installed and tuned by a LSX Pro and don't get greedy with the boost and run alky for insurance.

My forged 347 cubed LME motor waiting on ice, with brand new DART LS1 heads on it and a little ECS blower cam, will make MORE than enough power than i will ever need, shoud prove to be very reliable, will beat 99.9% percent of any car it runs up against on the roadway and is capable of a 9 sec something time slip assuming driver skill, traction and no valve train parts breaking. Why one needs anything more than this on a car driven 99% of the time on the street is beyond my comprehension, but to each his own and its not my $$$ and I sure have pissed away my share over the years but am finally wising up!!

peter pan

I am on board with Blown ECS Z06 as the little ole LSx motors do hold power very well, heck my little blown 346 is going on 5k trouble free miles no belt issues, no oil issues and is such a blast to drive, not sure about the 100 hp/100 tq advantage as I have seen alot of stroker setups and they look similiar to mine and if I can not hook up if I come out of a turn pushing 3k and they have more it will just take more modulation of the throttle to hook up, oh I do run some real sticky auto cross tires and they are worthless if I mash the throttle, however I have learned to modulate the power and those tires and my experience is much more fun than just showing off that I can smoke the tires at will. Now if I was a 1/4 guy I would want more cubes no doubt, however as stated we have little 346's in the 8. At the end of this driving year I will not have to rebuild and no I do not run 20lbs of boost but 14 lbs all the time and it is enough at the moment. Kind of like my di$k is bigger than yours

jbsblownc5

I hear ya, but the LS2 402 has oil and heat issues, at least the one I've seen come out around here...

Besides, I just pushed a blown 402 up the hill in a recent video...

With the right tire and a bit of throttle modulation, you can put down a lot of power on the street!!

I'm at well over 2 years without a rebuild, and I DO drive it!!

JB

FastCashDave

I'm running a 408 iron block, because I knew I would be running 20psi
I have made almost 100 runs this year and never run less than 15lb of boost, Last week I made 6 runs at 24lb of boost and have not had any problems at all.
We just put together the same 408 for my dads car we are also doing a big rear mount on it. So I feel that that the 408 iron block, and turbo is the only way to go

Varmit

Great timing on this thread!! I was considering going to the larger 8 rib set up and different pulleys for more boost. But after reading this, I will just stay at 9 lbs with my current set up. Everyone is right on about the useable, available power to the wheels on the street. It is no doubt a pe$is contest. It seems the more power, the fewer gears I have to accelerate with on the street. At some point, it is diminishing returns.

Keep the info coming!!

NemesisC5

Everone has their own opinions, but it seems reasonable to conclude that non stroker LSX's can make power more reliably than stroked/blown LSX's. IMHO, what I want out of my car is that it can be driven daily reliably with more power than I can put down on the street all while it handles like a true sports car. This has been a GREAT thread for those of us who are making plans for a forged powerplant, very informative & very fundamental. HAPPY MOTORING!

Scotty

2001-WS6

Street power limits...

Having it,
hooking it and,
driving it
are what this hobby is all about.

The first factor takes a check book.
The second factor takes setup knowledge/driving skills.
The third factor takes brains and a lot of *****.

When you've maxed out on any one of three factors, then you've maxed out on the amount of power that is "right for you" on the street.

Those that tell you there is a limit to streetable power are concered about one of two things. They don't want you to surpass them by too much, or they don't believe you have enough of the third factor to allow you to be on streets without a remote shutoff switch following you around in a chase car all day. So at least consider their advice before opening up factor 1 too far.

Rick

DOUG @ ECS

Interesting thread Dave,

First to answer (imo) the strength factor of the LS2 blocks, they are very strong for an OEM block. The one that we cracked was pushed way to the limits so it's really not fair to use that one as an example. We were making well over 1000hp with it, looking to push an IRS car into the 8's. It takes considerably more power to push a street able car to that level over a straight axle track car. Alans car put down just over 800rwhp through a race converter, 400 trans, and 28" slicks. If that engine combo was in a six speed car, the numbers would have been substaintially higher, but almost undriveable on the track.
For instance one of our techs has a 69 Camaro/full race that put down mid sevens on the dyno, yet has ran 8.12 in the quarter. A lot is lost on the dyno, yet the car is much faster in its sole, direct purpose.

I do not feel big cube blocks are "unreliable", but I will say that they are less reliable than stock cube engines. This only being said because of the sleeving process and head gaskets necessary, opens the door more for additional problems. We have several big cube cars out there from boosted to N/A out there doing fine, but we are making the power now with a 346 that we made 2 years ago with a 427. Thus the reason why we push our S/C800 package with the 346 over 427 packages. Yes the 427 will make more mid range, but with power curves we can get from a 346 it's just overkill for 99% of the people out there.

The difference in power losses etc from a turbo to an S/C will never become an issue for 99.99% of the people on this board. We found that when Alan ran the power level up to where the car could possibly run an eight second pass, then we were simply taxing the engine to much for the S/C and were thinking of going to a turbo set up, but how many people are looking to go that far? His new car (reason why blue is for sale) is a full 25-2 race car that will be a front mount single 94mm turbo. That will give us better engine longevity at those power levels.

Oh btw, my S/C C5R 427 has been going fine with a recorded 22lbs of boost, so far for three years now. Although I only really raced it the first year, I have been know to run it through the gears every now and then on the street.

asmokegars

Thanks for posting. Everything was great except that I am outside of 99% of the population. :o I am afflicted with the need for speed disease.

1%r

Here's my input.

382 forged stroker with twins buiit by ECS.

I don't drag race and I run street tires, as you can see by my sig. I'm up there high in the numbers.

1.5 years later and 6K on the clock and not one issue, does that tell you something?

If it doesn't read between the lines if you want to play your going to pay.

#001 2001 Z06

I think, Slowhawk, Alan, Joel and Doug made great points. I actually re-read them. I can tell you from personal experience that you can use that kind of torque on the street. Like anything, it's all about easing into the throttle before WOT.

I have also gone WOT straight when conditions presented themselves for it.

The big benefits with a storker are the ability to run on pump gas and the overall torque bad. Is this for everyone? No. Others, will tell you that they, would not have it any other way. Each to their own.

RoadRebel

If your easing into the throttle then in fact you are NOT using the torque.

asmokegars

I love the 402 with the Novi2000. It hits hard and fast and is an absolute thrill to drive. I pushed to push it to the limit and we found it. No regrets at all about that and we found some things out that will help future setups.

DOUG @ ECS

Thats my point exactly, but then the flip side to that is some customers have said to me " I dont want to have to push it to max to get to where I want to be, I feel the engine will last longer that way". Thats really not bad thinking so I guess to each his own.

RoadRebel

Haha it's really not bad thinking but flawed a bit. The bottom line is in both circumstances the same amount of power will be applied (most it can put down) and really has the same long term effects on the motor. Its just a mental thing on where you foot is.

Phil

STAGED

This thread is turning out to be great. Less bore means less block distortion (less chances of blowing a head gasket) and other complications from re-sleeving as mentioned. Less stroke means possibility to maintain the best possible ring packaging and thick crown area (which in turn isolates the ring lands better from excessive impact loads and temperatures for extreme conditions). With a good tuner btw (i.e., one who punishes the pistons less during tuning), and if one MUST to go 38xcid, I prefer stroke only vs. bore only for quick spool or PD setups.

I like to state that a high drive ratio mechanical S/C pkg. with lower compression ratios and stock diff'l gears will noticably be more pokey for light throttle (off-boost) normal driving modes compared to even stock. Added cubes restores the stock-like drivability quotient for normal driving.

The LSx motors are not displacement challenged...hence boost vs. torque and hp should always be impressive. However the already tough all-aluminum v-block (as opposed to say the iron I-6 2JZ) could still use all the material it can afford to have when seeking those really, really high numbers.

Engine design/setup is one big tradeoff (juggling) exercise and hence the debate can never end.

DOUG @ ECS

0EG@EnglandGreen

Hey Doug. Post that write up you did a few months ago about Elapsed Time vs Cost vs Reliability.

<edit>Found it!!
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1430101
EG