396375

http://www.rockettbrand.com/technica...kcaseLubes.pdf

Good reading.

396375

I'm surprized the HD Diesel oils aren't at the top.
Good info.

Twin Screws

Such a simple question, so many diverse answers. Tell me why 10/50 is better than 5/30, the oil recommended by the people that built the engine?

chriswtx

Simple answer, the people that built the engine(GM) can't legally tell you to use an oil that has more than 800ppm of ZDDP anti-wear additives in it due to current EPA regulations. So they pick the best oil thats allowable by law..Not whats the best oil out there for your engine...

tramminc

anyone heard of royal purple 51 (RP51) for boosted motors

madmatt9471

I'm in the Mobile 1 Catagory w/ 15-50

Thanks,Matt

C66 Racing

I actually think the answer is very complicated. Three considerations, CAFE, viscosity and anti-wear additives.

CAFE. First, I feel that CAFE ratings are driving auto maker fluid recommendations. Viscosities of oil and tranny fluid are coming down as each drop helps the companies overall CAFE rating. Look how many manufacturers are recommending 5w20 oils now. Dexron VI has a lower viscosity than Dexron III, again, I feel to improve CAFE. While a 40 grade oil might work better in the motor, how much better for a daily driver (which is what GM warranties - not cars with FI or those raced such as mine which is stock)? Will a stock motor last 100k miles with a 5w30 when used as a daily driver? If so, then the company can take the 5% or so improvement in fuel mileage a 5w30 brings to the table with little risk.

Viscosity. I feel that a stock LS1/LS6 works well with an oil that has a viscosity of 10-11 cSt, which is what a 30 grade oil's viscosity is at 212F. But how hot does your oil get when you are running your motor hard? Even with an oil cooler, I see oil temps of 250-270F on the track. 300F is common for those guys without oil coolers. At 300F, a 30 grade oil has lost about 70% of the viscosity it had at 212F and has a viscosity of about 3 cSt. That's roughly equivalent to the viscosity a 5 grade oil would have at 212F. How many of you would be comfortable running an SAE 5 oil in your cars? This is one of the primary reasons I run a 40 grade oil in my car on the track. Don't see oil temps over 212F? Then a 30 grade oil might be a better choice for you.

Anti-wear additives. As mentioned above, the EPA mandates that smog equipment function for 100k miles. One of the primary anti-wear additives, Zinc dialkyl dithio phosphate or ZDDP, damages catalytic converters. To ensure their catalytic converters can last 100k miles, the auto industry requested that the API and ILSAC limit the amount of phosphorus in 30 grade oils to 0.08% or 800 ppm (actually they asked for even lower but a compromise was reached at 800 ppm). The new API SM/ISLAC GF-4 oils thus are limited in their primary anti-wear additive to 800 ppm. Most oils used to run 900-1000 ppm and some such as AMSOIL were in the 1000-1200 ppm range. Note that this only impacts 30 grade oils. But, don't assume that 40 grade oils will have higher ZDDP. This is very brand dependent. There are ways around this issue. High Mileage oils usually are not API SM compliant. Diesel CI-4 oils do not have the same limit (but note that newer CJ-4 diesel oils have a similar ZDDP limit - so oils dual labeled as CJ-4/CI-4 are probably not a good choice).

Not everyone's choice of oil should be the same. I personally would decide what viscosity to run first and base that decision on oil temp. If I decided to use a 30 grade oil, I'd find one with high levels of ZDDP such as this CI-4 diesel oil: AMSOIL Series 3000 Synthetic 5w30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil (about 1265 ppm phosphorus and 1378 ppm zinc). With my oil temps of 250-270F I run a 10w40 with a high HTHS rating.

To highlight some of the differences viscosity and ZDDP levels make on an oils performance, again, I'd look to these HTHS ratings and note how they change with brand, viscosity, API rating, and application (high mileage, diesel, etc). This is the same list I pasted above, but taken down to 20 grade oils.

Amsoil Series 2000 20w50 (API SM) – 5.8
Amsoil Premium Protection 20w50 (API SL) – 5.0
Amsoil Marine Synthetic 10w40 (API SL) – 4.6
Mobil 1 EP 15w50 (API SM) – 4.6
Pennzoil Marine SAE 40 (API SJ) – 4.5
Mobil 1 15w50 (API SM) – 4.5
Amsoil Heavy Duty Diesel 15w40 (CI-4+) – 4.4
Amsoil Premium Protection 10w40 (API SL) – 4.3
Amsoil XL 10w40 (API SM) – 4.3
Pennzoil Truck/SUV 15w40 (CI-4+) – 4.3
Pennzoil Long Life Heavy Duty 15w40 (API SL) – 4.3
Amsoil Premium Diesel 5w40 (CJ-4) – 4.2
Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w40 (API SL) – 4.06
Pennzoil Marine 15w40 (API SL) – 4.0
Amsoil European 5w40 (API SM) – 3.7
Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w30 (API SL) – 3.66
Amsoil Marine Motor 10w30 (API SL) – 3.64
Mobil 1 0w40 (API SM) – 3.6
Amsoil Heavy Duty Diesel 5w30 (CI-4+) – 3.5
Pennzoil Long Life Heavy Duty (API SL) – 3.5
Pennzoil Marine SAE 30 (API SJ) – 3.5
Amsoil Signature Series 0w30 (API SM) – 3.2 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Amsoil SAE 10w30 (API SM) – 3.2 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Amsoil SAE 5w30 (API SM) – 3.2 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Amsoil XL 5w30 (API SM) – 3.2 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Amsoil XL 10w30 (API SM) – 3.2 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Amsoil XL 5w30 (API SM) – 3.2 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Pennzoil Platinum 10w30 (API SM) – 3.15 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Mobil 1 10w30 (API SM) – 3.14 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Mobil 1 EP 10w30 (API SM) – 3.1
Mobil 1 EP 5w30 (API SM) – 3.1
Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 (API SM) – 3.1 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Pennzoil Truck/SUV 10w30 (API SM) – 3.1
Mobil 1 5w30 (API SM) – 3.09 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Mobil 1 Truck/SUV 5w30 (API SM) – 3.09
Pennzoil Truck/SUV 5w30 (API SM) – 3.0
Mobil 1 0w30 (API SM) – 2.99 (meets GM Standard 4718M)
Amsoil SAE 0w20 (API SM) – 2.8
Amsoil XL 5w20 (API SM) – 2.7
Mobil 1 EP 5w20 (API SM) – 2.7
Mobil 1 5w20 (API SM) – 2.62
Mobil 1 0w20 (API SM) – 2.61
Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 (API SM) – 2.6
Pennzoil Truck/SUV 5w30 (API SM) – 2.6
Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 (API SM) – 2.6

Note: Many companies such as Castrol, Shell, and Royal Purple do not list HTHS ratings

Twin Screws

So for a weekend driver, with occassional highway pulls, and bi-monthly 1/4 mile track visits (3 passes or so at a whack)...what would you recommend?

Shinobi'sZ

I am currently using Mobil 1 0w-40 but will be using a 0w-50 next oil change.


The "w" means winter for those of you that do not know.

C66 Racing

Responded to your email with much more info, but the short story here, if it were my car and I wasn't worried about warranty due to mods, I'd go with the Premium Performance 10w40 I listed above as it has a HTHS rating almost as high as Mobil 1 15w50, but at a lower viscosity which I think would be better suited to your use.

Didn't know anybody made a 0w50. I'd be a little concerned that a lot of viscosity improvers (which tend to break down) would be needed to get that viscosity spread.

To help educate those reading this thread, here is the API's discussion on viscosity grades:
"The low-temperature viscosity (the first number, 5W in a 5W-30 oil) indicates how quickly an engine will crank in winter and how well the oil will flow to lubricate critical engine parts at low temperatures. The lower the number the more easily the engine will start in cold weather.

The high-temperature viscosity (the second number, 30 in a 5W-30 oil) provides thickness, or body, for good lubrication at operating temperatures."

What is commonly misunderstood is that although the first number is lower, the oil's viscosity is actually much higher when cold (just like any other fluid). Viscosity is measured and reported at 40C (100F) and 100C (212F). For example, the Mobil 1 0w40 Shinobi' uses has a viscosity of 78.3 cSt at 100F and 14 at 212F. For comparison, Mobil 1 5w30 has a viscosity of 64.8 at 100F and 11.3 at 212F. So, although the 0w40 has a zero in front of the "w", its viscosity is still higher at 100F than that of their 5w30. Note that for both of them, the viscosity at 100F is about 5-6 times higher than it is at 212F. It is for this reason that I recommend being very gentle with the throttle until the oil is warm.

Shinobi'sZ

Yes Japan has a 0w-50 ENEOUS or something like that and Mobile 1 or Castrol will be releasing either a 5w-50 or 0w-50 to be used for the McClaren.

Here found it.
I prefer a 0-5w for better start up protection and oil pressure. The 50 weight will give the protection needed at higher oil temps too.
http://www.advancespeedshop.com/eneo...50-p-4847.html
I find the JN products very good much like everything else they do.

Twin Screws

Seems like a 15w50 would be too thick for cars in cold temps. Startups would be brutal. Seems like 10w40 would be better?

C66 Racing

That is my concern with a 15w50 (or 20w50).

Pulled this data off Mobil 1's website:
Oil 100F viscosity 212F viscosity Phosphorus HTHS
Mobil 1 15w50 131.2 18.1 1200 ppm 4.5
Mobil 1 HM 10w40 98.16 14.71 1000 ppm 4.06
Mobil 1 0w40 78.3 14 1000 ppm 3.7

And just because I looked at it, here is the same data for the Nippon oil 0w50 linked above by Shinobi:
104 18 (no HTHS listed)
Interesting that Nippon's 0w50 has a higher viscosity at 100F than does Mobil 1's 10w40.

The Mobil 1 15w50 viscosity is almost double that of Mobil 1's 0w40 at 100F. Probably is double at lower temps. Running a 15w50 on the street, I'd be really concerned about the oil flow through the bearings at low temps.

As another FYI for those Mobil 1 users, I found this while browsing through Mobil 1's website:
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf
Pretty handy listing of how much phosphorus is in all of their oils.

As can be seen, the 15w50 has more ppm phosphorus and a higher HTHS rating than either the Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w40 or Mobil 1 0w40, but its viscosity when cold is really high. Tradeoff between low temp flow and high temp protection. Probably no right answer and depending on where you live and how you drive, 15w50 (or AMSOIL's 20w50) might be the right answer for some, and 10w40 or 0w40 the right answer for others.

Thanks for the link. Didn't realize that Eneos had a 0w50. Probably should start paying them more attention. If you didn't know it, that is a Nippon Oil Company product. If I read that data sheet right, the TBN is only 6.4. That seems pretty low for a street oil. Like Royal Purple, I also didn't see an HTHS rating listed.

Shinobi'sZ

I don't spend too much time worrying about what the viscosity is at 100*f as my oil hardly stays there for any time. What I was mainly concerned about is how well it protects at 212-230*F which has typically been my operating temps.

To mitigate for turbos heating the oil I have installed a 25 row Earls Oil Cooler with -10 fittings. That should keep it cool after I have been running the car for a bit and or on and off the track.

The reason I like the 0 or 5 weight is solely for cold engine start up and pumping.

I was running the 0w-40 Amsoil (european formular) when my #4bearing went...but I won't blame that on the oil...it was just coincidental I'm sure.

So that's why I prefer a 0 or 5W and then a 40 or 50 on the other end. My oil pressue is 60-80 at start up and then 40 psi at 212-230* during idle.

C66 Racing

Is the 60-80 psi at start up under load or at idle? Assume it is under light load, but either way that highlights a little of my concern with heavy grade oils when cold. Unless the oil pump as been modified, at the upper end of your cold pressure band, your oil relief is lifting and porting oil away from the engine. So while pressure is good, flow is not. Which again is why I'm very easy on the throttle until my oil is warm.

Your hot idle oil pressure is really good, so in general, I feel that your choice of grade is good for your motor setup and driving style. But, I'd still be a little concerned with viscosity shear down when using an oil with that much of a viscosity spread.

Have you ever submitted your used oil for analysis to determine if it stayed in grade for the service interval you are using? If I had a high dollar FI motor, I'd consider spending the $20 or so per oil change to get an idea of how my engine is performing. You might get an early indication of a problem.

If you haven't seen one, here is an example from Blackstone Labs (the lab I use for my cars as well) from a fellow forum member's relatively stock LS1:
Corvette C5 Used Oil Analysis Report – AMSOIL SAE Synthetic 10w30

FRCTony

Oil temp is on the DIC at every startup for me. I don't even think about getting on it until I see 160F. I don't think I'm in the minority either.

I ran across some Mobil 0w-40 and will try it this spring/summer.

Twin Screws

FWIW Ford recommends a 50 weight oil for the Shelby GT500. Would love to know what Chevy is recommending for the new ZR1? Anyone?

C66 Racing

Not sure, but to demonstrate the impact of CAFE on GM's recommendations, check out post #8 on this thread:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1765300

Shinobi'sZ

Cold start up is 60 if I even slightly bring up the rpms or begin driving it will swing over to 70-80...so I have to be very easy. This is supplying two turbos with -10an return lines and is on a fairly new motor (few thousand miles...couple of 800rwhp dyno runs and street) and the Melling High Volume oil pump...Red Spring.

Once its up to temp (180-220) is idles at 40 psi and will go up to about 60psi at 5-6500 rpms.

This is using the 0w-40 oil too.

As for the oil anlysis...I usually just check the drain pan and magnetic pan plug..if I don't see anything and there is good oil pressure...I don't worry.

When I lost a bearing my oil drain pan had gold dust in it...looked like glitter in it. I cut the oil filter with a pair of tin snips and found the bigger particles.

Thanks for the link! I might go back to Amsoil. It's hard finding one oil to do it all...it's kind of like picking tires for the street, strip, or track...you have to have a set for each.

I like the 0w because of cold start up and it improves horspower. Naturally I like the heavier stuff 30-50w for the protection. Supposedly the German Castrol 30w is good stuff too.

I have chose to use an oil cooler to help keep oil temps down to around 180-230 max. I think that will allow the oil to perform the best. But the higher sheer number is better under heavier loads...that's for sure and the 0w-40 doesn't perform as well as a 20w-50..etc..

HRTBRCR

just my two cents...you can do a search on the internet...there has
been some independant synthetic oil tests rate all the different oils...and that some areant really worth the extra money. I prefer
to just change the oil each month and its always "clean", which is
the best for the bearings....nothing like clear oil, less contamanints
in the motor...and keeping it super clean....thanks Dave at Canadian
Performance...he suggested I do this. I just run the castrol 20w50
in the spring, summer and fall....I feel like the oil in my motor really
doesnt get the chance to break down.