The e85 thread
11-18-2011, 08:06 PM
#1
The e85 thread
Many people on here talk about e85 and wonder about it, however many do not understand it. I made this thread for everyone to have a better understanding of what e85 is and how it can be useful for your car. Hopefully this will be a sticky for future E85 inquires. Anyone who has questions or would like to add to the thread please feel free. I have compiled this information from many sources and myself which I will site at the bottom of the first post. Hope you guys enjoy and consider e85 for your new fuel.
What is E85?
E85 is an alternative fuel for use in flexible fuel vehicles. (FFV) It is a blend consisting of 85% ethanol and
15% unleaded gasoline. It has an octane rating of 105
Why is ethanol beneficial?
Ethanol is a clean burning, high octane fuel that is derived from renewable sources. It is a grain alcohol produced from crops such as corn. Ethanol is produced in the United States and thus reduces our demand on foreign sources of energy. It decreases the harmful emissions found in gasoline. Ethanol also increases the fuels octane rating. The higher the rating the cleaner the fuel is.
Finding E85 stations near you
The following link will take you to a page that will have a list of e85 stations throughout the U.S.
Simply click on your state to the right of the map and you will stations near you.
http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.html
Will my fuel mileage go down?
Most likely answer…. YES! E85 being the super fuel that it is burns roughly 30% more than standard gasoline. With that being said you will most likely go through fuel more quickly.
E85 fuel system components
Regardless of what most people may have told you… E85 is not the “lava eating” type fuel that some people believe. In fact according to many e85 is no more corrosive that gasoline when it comes to fuel system components. Rubber compounds are the main object that needs to be watched with e85.
Most companies will have a label for their products saying if they are e85 compatible. If there is no label the best choice would be to call and ask if they are.
E85 ETHANOL MYTHS
1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive
Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.
On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?
2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.
If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.
3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.
One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.
4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.
Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.
5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.
Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.
The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.
Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.
Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.
6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.
This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.
7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.
E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.
8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.
This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.
9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.
There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.
10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.
There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.
11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.
It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.
12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?
No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.
13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.
The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.
14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.
Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.
The below regional chart refers to the 3 classes of E85 blends that are offered in a particular area at that time of year. Each class has different properties, the most important being the amount of Ethanol in the blend which can affect the Air/Fuel ratio of your customized tune if you've converted to E85. This chart represents the recommended fuel to retailers, not necessarily what's in the tank at your local station.
Please be sure to read our E85 Tuning article regarding how this plays a factor.
Summer Blend: Class 1 (min 79% ethanol)
Spring/Fall Blend: Class 2 (min 74% ethanol)
Winter Blend: Class 3 (min 70% ethanol)
State Fuel Region Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Alabama 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Alaska Southern Region 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3 3
Alaska South Mainland 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3 3
Arizona North of 34 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Arizona South of 34 latitude 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Arkansas 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
California North Coast 2 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
California South Coast 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
California Southeast 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
California Interior 2 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Colorado East of 105 longitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Colorado West of 105 longitude 3 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1/2 2/3 3 3 3
Connecticut 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Delaware 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
DC 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Florida North of 29 latitude 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Florida South of 29 latitude 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2
Georgia 3 3 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3
Hawaii 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Idaho 3 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Illinois North of 40 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Illinois South of 40 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Indiana 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Iowa 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Kansas 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Kentucky 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Louisiana 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Maine 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Maryland 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Massachusetts 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Michigan Lower Peninsula 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Michigan Upper Peninsula 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Minnesota 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Mississippi 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Missouri 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Montana 3 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1/2 2/3 3 3 3
Nebraska 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Nevada North of 38 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Nevada South of 38 latitude 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
New Hampshire 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
New Jersey 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
New Mexico North of 34 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
New Mexico South of 34 latitude 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3
New York North of 42 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
New York South of 42 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
North Carolina 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
North Dakota 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Ohio 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Oklahoma 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Oregon East of 122 longitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Oregon West of 122 longitude 3 3/2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2 2/3
Pennsylvania North of 41 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Pennsylvania South of 41 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Rhode Island 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
South Carolina 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
South Dakota 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Tennessee 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Texas North of 31 latitude 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Texas South of 31 latitude 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Utah 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Vermont 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Virginia 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Washington East of 122 longitude 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Washington West of 122 longitude 3 3/2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2 2/3
West Virginia 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Wisconsin 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Wyoming 3 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Tuning a Mustang to run E85 Fuel can be quite challenging if you're not sure where to begin. It requires the right combination of parts, as well as the proper computer adjustments to feed the extra fuel requirements. There are few tuners that understand what needs to take place with the ECU on your Mustang. We'll try to provide some basic tips here on this page, but the knowledge of a reputable tuner will be far more important in the outcome of your E85 conversion.
Our E85Mustangs.com project car is the yellow 1999 GT you've seen on this site, nicknamed "BrightMare". It is exclusively tuned by Dan DeSio of Pro-Dyno who has spent a tremendous amount of time to understand what makes this fuel tick. This is a great example of the type of tuner you should be looking for in your quest to convert your Mustang to E85.
Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.
However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.
All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.
If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline.
For a late model modular Ford engine, we can tell you that it requires about 20% more fuel at part throttle, and about 40% more fuel at wide open throttle (WOT) so ensure you have adequate fuel flow to the cylinder before you begin. This is where the experience of a professional tuner becomes important to understand just how much fuel to add and when, to make the perfect fuel curve.
IGNITION TIMING
In addition to fuel changes, there are also other parameters that can be altered, such as ignition timing advance to take advantage of the 105 octane rating of E85. The ethanol is slower to ignite, and more timing can be added at max power without the worries of detonation. Our project car sees about 21 degrees of timing at 6500 rpm on a stock engine. That simply isn't capable with 93 octane gasoline. The benefit is a modest 5-10% increase in horsepower. It is a comparable result to high octane race fuel, without the need to charge your buddies $10 a ride to pay for your fuel needs!
SUMMER BLEND VS. WINTER BLEND
One topic we have not seen discussed in detail is the difference in tuning requirements for various blends of E85 that change with the season. During the cold winter months, more gasoline is added to E85 by the fuel distributor before it gets to the station pumps. This is to aide in cold weather starting where ethanol vapors are less than adequate for starting conditions. For a true flex fuel vehicle there is a sensor that reads this ratio of ethanol and adjusts an internal ethanol table used to modify fuel and timing tables for proper fuel burn. Mustangs are not currently setup with this sensor or the ethanol table so you must be aware of what mixture is in your tank, in order to ensure the tune is correct for the fuel mixture.
The blend changeover triggers a change in the AFR because the ethanol percentage varies from 70% to 85% depending on the seasonal temperatures where you live. 70% ethanol content is the minimum percentage rating for Winter Blend E85. There is a middle grade (class 2) during Spring and Fall with a minimum of 74% ethanol. Summer Blend has a minimum of 79% but all variations are still called E85 for a recognizable common name. This changeover of blends varies per climate (NY goes to Winter Blend much sooner than Georgia). To see the complete chart by state, GO HERE.
The ethanol percentage changes are important to note because it changes the AFR, primarily at WOT when you're in Open Loop mode. (During Closed Loop or part-throttle operation, the O2 sensors report back to the ECU and tell it how much to modify the fuel flow.) How much does the AFR change? Our worst case projected scenario, is 1 full point on your gasoline AFR gauge. This represents the differences between 85% ethanol and 70% ethanol however the actual change between seasons is likely to be less than this. We want to ensure you understand the potential for seasonal changes.
With that said, let's look at what happens when going from one blend to the other... Let's say it's August and you're currently running a Summer Blend of E85 fuel. If your next tank fill-up were to be with Winter Blend, the car will go slightly more rich. At WOT, this is not dangerous, but could cause a performance impact if AFRs are not ideal. How much more rich? Well, that depends on the actual percentage of ethanol in the fuel you purchased.
You can easily measure the amount of ethanol in your E85 using the technique located in this Handling and Storage document on the NEVC website (see page 30)
Let's look at the flip side going from Winter Blend to Summer Blend during the Spring time. What happens here is much more important, because now we are going from less ethanol content (70%) to more ethanol content (85%) and that will potentially cause a lean condition. As we all know, lean is great on your wife or your grilled chicken, but certainly not on an internal combustion engine! As mentioned above, the maximum range it should fluctuate at WOT, is 1 full point on your gasoline AFR gauge. If you were previously at 11.8 AFR with the pedal to the floor, it could potentially go up as much as 12.8, but more likely around half a point at 12.3. When performance tuning, this could be a critical mistake that causes engine failure. The high octane is much more forgiving than gasoline but the longevity of your motor ultimately depends on how safe your tune was built.
During the transition months of Spring and Fall, it's even more difficult to know what class of E85 you're buying and testing your fuel as mentioned above is even more important. For the best results you will need two variations of the tune to load (winter and summer). The SCT Xcalibrator 2 is a great tool for choosing between load files, or the use of an SCT flip chip.
If multiple tunes are not possible, you're better off building your tune with Summer Blend (85%) and letting the car go more rich in Winter, so that you will be right on target again when warmer temps return during racing season.
Storing e85
The following site will provide you with lots of E85 information including storing and dispensing it.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/40243.pdf
Thank you to the following website for providing us with the majority of this information. If any of them have an issue with our forum using their information please let me know and I will take it down.
http://www.e85mustangs.com/regions123.html
http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths
http://www.in.gov/oed/files/Fact_Sheet_-_E85.pdf
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
What is E85?
E85 is an alternative fuel for use in flexible fuel vehicles. (FFV) It is a blend consisting of 85% ethanol and
15% unleaded gasoline. It has an octane rating of 105
Why is ethanol beneficial?
Ethanol is a clean burning, high octane fuel that is derived from renewable sources. It is a grain alcohol produced from crops such as corn. Ethanol is produced in the United States and thus reduces our demand on foreign sources of energy. It decreases the harmful emissions found in gasoline. Ethanol also increases the fuels octane rating. The higher the rating the cleaner the fuel is.
Finding E85 stations near you
The following link will take you to a page that will have a list of e85 stations throughout the U.S.
Simply click on your state to the right of the map and you will stations near you.
http://e85vehicles.com/e85-stations.html
Will my fuel mileage go down?
Most likely answer…. YES! E85 being the super fuel that it is burns roughly 30% more than standard gasoline. With that being said you will most likely go through fuel more quickly.
E85 fuel system components
Regardless of what most people may have told you… E85 is not the “lava eating” type fuel that some people believe. In fact according to many e85 is no more corrosive that gasoline when it comes to fuel system components. Rubber compounds are the main object that needs to be watched with e85.
Most companies will have a label for their products saying if they are e85 compatible. If there is no label the best choice would be to call and ask if they are.
E85 ETHANOL MYTHS
1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive
Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.
On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?
2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.
If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.
3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.
One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.
4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.
Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.
5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.
Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.
The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.
Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.
Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.
6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.
This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.
7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.
E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.
8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.
This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.
9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.
There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.
10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.
There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.
11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.
It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.
12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?
No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.
13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.
The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.
14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.
Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.
The below regional chart refers to the 3 classes of E85 blends that are offered in a particular area at that time of year. Each class has different properties, the most important being the amount of Ethanol in the blend which can affect the Air/Fuel ratio of your customized tune if you've converted to E85. This chart represents the recommended fuel to retailers, not necessarily what's in the tank at your local station.
Please be sure to read our E85 Tuning article regarding how this plays a factor.
Summer Blend: Class 1 (min 79% ethanol)
Spring/Fall Blend: Class 2 (min 74% ethanol)
Winter Blend: Class 3 (min 70% ethanol)
State Fuel Region Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
Alabama 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Alaska Southern Region 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3 3
Alaska South Mainland 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3 3
Arizona North of 34 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Arizona South of 34 latitude 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Arkansas 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
California North Coast 2 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
California South Coast 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
California Southeast 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
California Interior 2 2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Colorado East of 105 longitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Colorado West of 105 longitude 3 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1/2 2/3 3 3 3
Connecticut 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Delaware 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
DC 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Florida North of 29 latitude 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Florida South of 29 latitude 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2
Georgia 3 3 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3
Hawaii 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
Idaho 3 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Illinois North of 40 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Illinois South of 40 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Indiana 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Iowa 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Kansas 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Kentucky 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Louisiana 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Maine 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Maryland 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Massachusetts 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Michigan Lower Peninsula 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Michigan Upper Peninsula 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Minnesota 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Mississippi 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Missouri 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Montana 3 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1/2 2/3 3 3 3
Nebraska 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Nevada North of 38 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Nevada South of 38 latitude 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
New Hampshire 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
New Jersey 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
New Mexico North of 34 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
New Mexico South of 34 latitude 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3
New York North of 42 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
New York South of 42 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
North Carolina 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
North Dakota 3 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Ohio 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Oklahoma 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Oregon East of 122 longitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Oregon West of 122 longitude 3 3/2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2 2/3
Pennsylvania North of 41 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Pennsylvania South of 41 latitude 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Rhode Island 3 3 3 3/2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
South Carolina 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
South Dakota 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Tennessee 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Texas North of 31 latitude 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Texas South of 31 latitude 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2
Utah 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Vermont 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Virginia 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3
Washington East of 122 longitude 3 3 3/2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2/3 3 3
Washington West of 122 longitude 3 3/2 2 2 2 2/1 1 1 1/2 2 2 2/3
West Virginia 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Wisconsin 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Wyoming 3 3 3 3 3/2 2 2/1 1/2 2 2/3 3 3
Tuning a Mustang to run E85 Fuel can be quite challenging if you're not sure where to begin. It requires the right combination of parts, as well as the proper computer adjustments to feed the extra fuel requirements. There are few tuners that understand what needs to take place with the ECU on your Mustang. We'll try to provide some basic tips here on this page, but the knowledge of a reputable tuner will be far more important in the outcome of your E85 conversion.
Our E85Mustangs.com project car is the yellow 1999 GT you've seen on this site, nicknamed "BrightMare". It is exclusively tuned by Dan DeSio of Pro-Dyno who has spent a tremendous amount of time to understand what makes this fuel tick. This is a great example of the type of tuner you should be looking for in your quest to convert your Mustang to E85.
Understanding Air/Fuel ratios
This article assumes you already understand the concept of the air/fuel ratio (AFR), but if not, familiarize yourself by visiting this Wikipedia link. You may have already read that E85 has a different stoichometric air fuel ratio than gasoline's 14.7. The stoich AFR for E85 (at 85% Ethanol) is 9.76. The stoich value represents an ideal perfect burn of the fuel usually used at part throttle conditions. Full throttle conditions require a richer mixture than stoich to prevent the dreaded detonation, or pinging.
However most AFR gauges you can purchase to display a numerical value of the AFR, are showing you values for gasoline. This is where it can get tricky, and it's important to understand how this ratio works on both gasoline and ethanol-based fuel.
All AFR's regardless of fuel type work off of a common number called Lambda. A value of 1.0 in Lambda represents the stoich for any fuel. Gasoline is Lambda 1.0 at stoich. E85 is Lambda 1.0 at stoich.
If you already have a standard gasoline AFR meter hooked to a wideband O2 sensor, you can still use the displayed gasoline AFRs in determining your engine's true AFR. For example, if your gasoline meter is showing 14.7, then we know this is Lamda of 1.0. The equivelent on the E85 side is around 9.7. Therefore you can conclude that the 14.7 you see on the gauge is a true AFR of 9.7. This allows you to effectively use existing gasoline AFR components or software to tune an E85 Mustang without buying special equipment. Simply use the same target AFRs on your gasoline gauge that you normally targeted for gasolline.
For a late model modular Ford engine, we can tell you that it requires about 20% more fuel at part throttle, and about 40% more fuel at wide open throttle (WOT) so ensure you have adequate fuel flow to the cylinder before you begin. This is where the experience of a professional tuner becomes important to understand just how much fuel to add and when, to make the perfect fuel curve.
IGNITION TIMING
In addition to fuel changes, there are also other parameters that can be altered, such as ignition timing advance to take advantage of the 105 octane rating of E85. The ethanol is slower to ignite, and more timing can be added at max power without the worries of detonation. Our project car sees about 21 degrees of timing at 6500 rpm on a stock engine. That simply isn't capable with 93 octane gasoline. The benefit is a modest 5-10% increase in horsepower. It is a comparable result to high octane race fuel, without the need to charge your buddies $10 a ride to pay for your fuel needs!
SUMMER BLEND VS. WINTER BLEND
One topic we have not seen discussed in detail is the difference in tuning requirements for various blends of E85 that change with the season. During the cold winter months, more gasoline is added to E85 by the fuel distributor before it gets to the station pumps. This is to aide in cold weather starting where ethanol vapors are less than adequate for starting conditions. For a true flex fuel vehicle there is a sensor that reads this ratio of ethanol and adjusts an internal ethanol table used to modify fuel and timing tables for proper fuel burn. Mustangs are not currently setup with this sensor or the ethanol table so you must be aware of what mixture is in your tank, in order to ensure the tune is correct for the fuel mixture.
The blend changeover triggers a change in the AFR because the ethanol percentage varies from 70% to 85% depending on the seasonal temperatures where you live. 70% ethanol content is the minimum percentage rating for Winter Blend E85. There is a middle grade (class 2) during Spring and Fall with a minimum of 74% ethanol. Summer Blend has a minimum of 79% but all variations are still called E85 for a recognizable common name. This changeover of blends varies per climate (NY goes to Winter Blend much sooner than Georgia). To see the complete chart by state, GO HERE.
The ethanol percentage changes are important to note because it changes the AFR, primarily at WOT when you're in Open Loop mode. (During Closed Loop or part-throttle operation, the O2 sensors report back to the ECU and tell it how much to modify the fuel flow.) How much does the AFR change? Our worst case projected scenario, is 1 full point on your gasoline AFR gauge. This represents the differences between 85% ethanol and 70% ethanol however the actual change between seasons is likely to be less than this. We want to ensure you understand the potential for seasonal changes.
With that said, let's look at what happens when going from one blend to the other... Let's say it's August and you're currently running a Summer Blend of E85 fuel. If your next tank fill-up were to be with Winter Blend, the car will go slightly more rich. At WOT, this is not dangerous, but could cause a performance impact if AFRs are not ideal. How much more rich? Well, that depends on the actual percentage of ethanol in the fuel you purchased.
You can easily measure the amount of ethanol in your E85 using the technique located in this Handling and Storage document on the NEVC website (see page 30)
Let's look at the flip side going from Winter Blend to Summer Blend during the Spring time. What happens here is much more important, because now we are going from less ethanol content (70%) to more ethanol content (85%) and that will potentially cause a lean condition. As we all know, lean is great on your wife or your grilled chicken, but certainly not on an internal combustion engine! As mentioned above, the maximum range it should fluctuate at WOT, is 1 full point on your gasoline AFR gauge. If you were previously at 11.8 AFR with the pedal to the floor, it could potentially go up as much as 12.8, but more likely around half a point at 12.3. When performance tuning, this could be a critical mistake that causes engine failure. The high octane is much more forgiving than gasoline but the longevity of your motor ultimately depends on how safe your tune was built.
During the transition months of Spring and Fall, it's even more difficult to know what class of E85 you're buying and testing your fuel as mentioned above is even more important. For the best results you will need two variations of the tune to load (winter and summer). The SCT Xcalibrator 2 is a great tool for choosing between load files, or the use of an SCT flip chip.
If multiple tunes are not possible, you're better off building your tune with Summer Blend (85%) and letting the car go more rich in Winter, so that you will be right on target again when warmer temps return during racing season.
Storing e85
The following site will provide you with lots of E85 information including storing and dispensing it.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy06osti/40243.pdf
Thank you to the following website for providing us with the majority of this information. If any of them have an issue with our forum using their information please let me know and I will take it down.
http://www.e85mustangs.com/regions123.html
http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths
http://www.in.gov/oed/files/Fact_Sheet_-_E85.pdf
http://www.e85mustangs.com/tuning.html
Last edited by stainless40cal; 11-18-2011 at 08:08 PM.
11-19-2011, 05:15 PM
#8
One area I cant wait to try this out in is in my car when its done. Since im running a top mount style blower, which we all know run hotter than most systems. I am really interested to see how much cooler it will run with e85 and control both oil temps and IAT temps.
Well this all depends on how much power you want to make. 30% increase in fueling is going to be needed no matter what to keep up.
Fuel pump most likely will need to be upgraded along with injectors if you are making above 500rwhp. Your needs will depend on your power.
The other nice thing about this fuel.... No need to run a methanol system anymore. The advantages running a meth system with e85 are little to none. By saving money in that department, you can use it to upgrade your fuel system to whatever you need.
11-19-2011, 07:47 PM
#9
Drifting
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You cannot measure IAT'S when using E85 as the E85 doesnt pass by the sensor like meth does and you wont see a drop in IAT'S on the log with E85.
E85 has extreme cooling effects so you just have to know even if you IAT's read high that is not the end result temp being ignited in the chamber at all. You can monitor EGT's if you wish and they will be much lower with E85 and be confident its fine. I just zero out my whole IAT spark table and dont worry about it with E85. I couldnt detonate this sucker no matter how much timing I throw at it on E85. I have never run meth and never will as long as there is E85 available.
I have played around mixing for E20, E35, E50 and E85 seeing what timing is liked and where any detonation is present. I really dont need to run full E85 in the winter but like E30. In the summer ill go to full E85 if its really hot out. Lucky I have an E85 Chevron 3 miles from my house.
If you wanna mix E85 and pump gas here is a calculator to figure out whats going on octane wise when mixing.
Be sure and input your octane rating of the pump E10 as its defaults to Reg 87 in the box.
E85 blending calculator: http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html#
E85 has extreme cooling effects so you just have to know even if you IAT's read high that is not the end result temp being ignited in the chamber at all. You can monitor EGT's if you wish and they will be much lower with E85 and be confident its fine. I just zero out my whole IAT spark table and dont worry about it with E85. I couldnt detonate this sucker no matter how much timing I throw at it on E85. I have never run meth and never will as long as there is E85 available.
I have played around mixing for E20, E35, E50 and E85 seeing what timing is liked and where any detonation is present. I really dont need to run full E85 in the winter but like E30. In the summer ill go to full E85 if its really hot out. Lucky I have an E85 Chevron 3 miles from my house.
If you wanna mix E85 and pump gas here is a calculator to figure out whats going on octane wise when mixing.
Be sure and input your octane rating of the pump E10 as its defaults to Reg 87 in the box.
E85 blending calculator: http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html#
Last edited by Z06supercharged; 11-19-2011 at 08:56 PM.
11-19-2011, 08:01 PM
#10
Thanks for adding. Great to see another vette user using the stuff with success.
As far as reading your IAT that may be true with turbos or a centri since you are reading after the supercharger and before the motor. However with a top mount your IAT is located in the actual intake manifold. So you are reading the IAT after both the blower and fuel are added into the mix. I would believe using this you would be able to see the change by mointering it but can't say cause I haven't tried it yet.
As far as reading your IAT that may be true with turbos or a centri since you are reading after the supercharger and before the motor. However with a top mount your IAT is located in the actual intake manifold. So you are reading the IAT after both the blower and fuel are added into the mix. I would believe using this you would be able to see the change by mointering it but can't say cause I haven't tried it yet.
11-19-2011, 08:17 PM
#11
Drifting
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Thanks for adding. Great to see another vette user using the stuff with success.
As far as reading your IAT that may be true with turbos or a centri since you are reading after the supercharger and before the motor. However with a top mount your IAT is located in the actual intake manifold. So you are reading the IAT after both the blower and fuel are added into the mix. I would believe using this you would be able to see the change by monitoring it but can't say cause I haven't tried it yet.
As far as reading your IAT that may be true with turbos or a centri since you are reading after the supercharger and before the motor. However with a top mount your IAT is located in the actual intake manifold. So you are reading the IAT after both the blower and fuel are added into the mix. I would believe using this you would be able to see the change by monitoring it but can't say cause I haven't tried it yet.
If I had a car I ran at the track (1/4 mile or road racing and ESPECIALLY road racing with a blower) there would be no way in hell I'd use anything but E85 in it, but I'm not sure if tracks even have E85 pumps? Thats a bummer cause they need to. I'm surprised Nascar isnt using E85 yet but I guess they rather have better gas mileage with the race gas....LOL.
I dont drive my car much anymore so a full tank of E85 will last me a month so Ill drive to go get it even if it wasnt close..
Last edited by Z06supercharged; 11-19-2011 at 08:27 PM.
11-19-2011, 08:27 PM
#12
Cool good info! Haha ya the gas mileage is the down side. But I don't see it as a big deal at all for me plus I have a few pumps within 15 minutes of where I live and its much cheaper than 93 plus the cost of meth currently.
You said it though man dentonation on e85 is next to none! Something like this that can be so safely burned is a beautiful thing!
You said it though man dentonation on e85 is next to none! Something like this that can be so safely burned is a beautiful thing!
11-19-2011, 08:45 PM
#14
Drifting
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Cool good info! Haha ya the gas mileage is the down side. But I don't see it as a big deal at all for me plus I have a few pumps within 15 minutes of where I live and its much cheaper than 93 plus the cost of meth currently.
You said it though man detonation on e85 is next to none! Something like this that can be so safely burned is a beautiful thing!
You said it though man detonation on e85 is next to none! Something like this that can be so safely burned is a beautiful thing!
I'm retired and have loads of time on my hands to experiment around with ethanol % mixes and tuning/testing if I'm not traveling around (I spend most of my time traveling around though and the car is now of little importance in my life and my son drives it usually)
I ran a few WOT's with my intercooler off the car and made same power as with it on with the E85 to prove a point to someone how good the cooling was with E85 and it would have no high IAT's causing KR* in the log and really could get away with not even running one.
I also test my pump gas each time I fill up for exact ethanol content also. Ive noticed for last 2 months Chevron stations here are at E8 and not E10 levels and the E85 of course is E80 usually as well.
For people not wanting or affording to go to bigger injectors you can blend it down to a E30 level and usually get by with current injectors and still get 95 octane and cooler combustion. I know why bother, well in Ca its crap pump 91 and anything you can do to up that to at least 93-95 octane E20-E30 is a plus.
I spent 25 years working in independent petroleum labs testing refineries gasoline's and jet fuels and running octane/cetane engines. I know fuels....LOL
I think people are FINALLY catching on how good the stuff actually is. I swear every single gas station should be selling it but the government is too stupid to make it happen.
Last edited by Z06supercharged; 11-19-2011 at 09:02 PM.
11-19-2011, 08:52 PM
#15
Great info! Sounds like you have a ton of experience with fuels lol
I agree with you on more stations. I wish it was at every station. Maybe some day as it is getting more and more popular.
I agree with you on more stations. I wish it was at every station. Maybe some day as it is getting more and more popular.
11-19-2011, 09:23 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '08
I ran 13 degrees on pump 91 with no meth then decided it was time to knock that off and get serious. On E85 I'm at 19 degrees. Just for the helluva it one day I bumped it up to 25 and still got no Kr* even though power dropped way off past 20 I was just curious if it would take it at 15 psi.
I'm retired and have loads of time on my hands to experiment around with ethanol % mixes and tuning/testing if I'm not traveling around (I spend most of my time traveling around though and the car is now of little importance in my life and my son drives it usually)
I ran a few WOT's with my intercooler off the car and made same power as with it on with the E85 to prove a point to someone how good the cooling was with E85 and it would have no high IAT's causing KR* in the log and really could get away with not even running one.
I also test my pump gas each time I fill up for exact ethanol content also. Ive noticed for last 2 months Chevron stations here are at E8 and not E10 levels and the E85 of course is E80 usually as well.
For people not wanting or affording to go to bigger injectors you can blend it down to a E30 level and usually get by with current injectors and still get 95 octane and cooler combustion. I know why bother, well in Ca its crap pump 91 and anything you can do to up that to at least 93-95 octane E20-E30 is a plus.
I spent 25 years working in independent petroleum labs testing refineries gasoline's and jet fuels and running octane/cetane engines. I know fuels....LOL
I think people are FINALLY catching on how good the stuff actually is. I swear every single gas station should be selling it but the government is too stupid to make it happen.
I'm retired and have loads of time on my hands to experiment around with ethanol % mixes and tuning/testing if I'm not traveling around (I spend most of my time traveling around though and the car is now of little importance in my life and my son drives it usually)
I ran a few WOT's with my intercooler off the car and made same power as with it on with the E85 to prove a point to someone how good the cooling was with E85 and it would have no high IAT's causing KR* in the log and really could get away with not even running one.
I also test my pump gas each time I fill up for exact ethanol content also. Ive noticed for last 2 months Chevron stations here are at E8 and not E10 levels and the E85 of course is E80 usually as well.
For people not wanting or affording to go to bigger injectors you can blend it down to a E30 level and usually get by with current injectors and still get 95 octane and cooler combustion. I know why bother, well in Ca its crap pump 91 and anything you can do to up that to at least 93-95 octane E20-E30 is a plus.
I spent 25 years working in independent petroleum labs testing refineries gasoline's and jet fuels and running octane/cetane engines. I know fuels....LOL
I think people are FINALLY catching on how good the stuff actually is. I swear every single gas station should be selling it but the government is too stupid to make it happen.
What does your fuel system consist of?
11-19-2011, 09:54 PM
#17
Le Mans Master
I can't believe CA isn't all over E85 with how clean it burns, with all the "green" crap. I've heard of cars passing the sniffer smog test in CA without a cat with E85.
11-19-2011, 10:50 PM
#18
Drifting
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On E85 I could go to a larger pulley and 2-3 psi less for the same hp I had on pump 91 and less stress on the motor. I'm just not into working on cars when its cold. Ive also loaned out my HPTuners to a friend while im traveling so really not setup to do tuning/testing changes for a while anyways.
Last edited by Z06supercharged; 11-20-2011 at 12:23 AM.
11-19-2011, 10:52 PM
#19
Le Mans Master
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St. Jude Donor '08
Straight from pump 91 at 14 timing to E85 with 19 timing netted 46 rwhp more. It wasnt only the more timing but also much denser/colder combustion charge from the E85 making more power. Didn't really hammer on the tune or could have got some more out of it but the 83's were at 90%. Have some IDC1000's but havnt thrown em in yet as I'm never home long enough to mess with it much anymore and really dont want anymore hp on the street than what I have.
On E85 I could go to a larger pulley and 2-3 psi less for the same hp I had on pump 91 and less stress on the motor. I'm just not into working on cars when its cold.
On E85 I could go to a larger pulley and 2-3 psi less for the same hp I had on pump 91 and less stress on the motor. I'm just not into working on cars when its cold.
BTW, you will love the ID1000's
11-19-2011, 11:31 PM
#20
ISIS SUCKS FAT CHOAD
