A&A intercooler
02-27-2015, 12:39 AM
#21
Le Mans Master
Lewis, was that with the air inlet pipe/filter on the blower?
That will definitely cause them to lose air flow/power up top...
As seen here:
Pull 5 is with a velocity stack on the blower. (900hp)
Pull 8 is with the 4" air inlet pipe/filter. (853hp) Notice the boost is erratic and power noses over hard.
This was with a 226/238 cam and stock LS6 intake/TB.
I went 151 mph thru the air filter with the power nosing over like that, going thru the traps at 6900 ish and a converter slipping 11.5%.
Now with my new cam and slightly tighter converter, I am hoping to be in the 156-158 mph range at 6900-7000.
I'm looking at cathedral intake options as well.. I want to do a high ram but don't want to cut the cowl or get a stupid tall hood.
For the MPH that your car runs, I'd be surprised if the HP is really nosing over that much but... I guess the chart doesn't lie.
I think I'd go back to stock rocker arms, check the spring pressures and go from there.. You want to make sure you have atleast 150lbs on the seat and 400lbs open AFTER the springs have been broken in. That's with stock rocker arms that are pretty light.
My new cam calls for 170lbs seat/420lbs open.
That will definitely cause them to lose air flow/power up top...
As seen here:
Pull 5 is with a velocity stack on the blower. (900hp)
Pull 8 is with the 4" air inlet pipe/filter. (853hp) Notice the boost is erratic and power noses over hard.
This was with a 226/238 cam and stock LS6 intake/TB.
I went 151 mph thru the air filter with the power nosing over like that, going thru the traps at 6900 ish and a converter slipping 11.5%.
Now with my new cam and slightly tighter converter, I am hoping to be in the 156-158 mph range at 6900-7000.
I'm looking at cathedral intake options as well.. I want to do a high ram but don't want to cut the cowl or get a stupid tall hood.
For the MPH that your car runs, I'd be surprised if the HP is really nosing over that much but... I guess the chart doesn't lie.
I think I'd go back to stock rocker arms, check the spring pressures and go from there.. You want to make sure you have atleast 150lbs on the seat and 400lbs open AFTER the springs have been broken in. That's with stock rocker arms that are pretty light.
My new cam calls for 170lbs seat/420lbs open.
02-27-2015, 01:00 AM
#22
Drifting
Thread Starter
Lewis, was that with the air inlet pipe/filter on the blower?
That will definitely cause them to lose air flow/power up top...
As seen here:
Pull 5 is with a velocity stack on the blower. (900hp)
Pull 8 is with the 4" air inlet pipe/filter. (853hp) Notice the boost is erratic and power noses over hard.
This was with a 226/238 cam and stock LS6 intake/TB.
I went 151 mph thru the air filter with the power nosing over like that, going thru the traps at 6900 ish and a converter slipping 11.5%.
Now with my new cam and slightly tighter converter, I am hoping to be in the 156-158 mph range at 6900-7000.
I'm looking at cathedral intake options as well.. I want to do a high ram but don't want to cut the cowl or get a stupid tall hood.
For the MPH that your car runs, I'd be surprised if the HP is really nosing over that much but... I guess the chart doesn't lie.
I think I'd go back to stock rocker arms, check the spring pressures and go from there.. You want to make sure you have atleast 150lbs on the seat and 400lbs open AFTER the springs have been broken in. That's with stock rocker arms that are pretty light.
My new cam calls for 170lbs seat/420lbs open.
That will definitely cause them to lose air flow/power up top...
As seen here:
Pull 5 is with a velocity stack on the blower. (900hp)
Pull 8 is with the 4" air inlet pipe/filter. (853hp) Notice the boost is erratic and power noses over hard.
This was with a 226/238 cam and stock LS6 intake/TB.
I went 151 mph thru the air filter with the power nosing over like that, going thru the traps at 6900 ish and a converter slipping 11.5%.
Now with my new cam and slightly tighter converter, I am hoping to be in the 156-158 mph range at 6900-7000.
I'm looking at cathedral intake options as well.. I want to do a high ram but don't want to cut the cowl or get a stupid tall hood.
For the MPH that your car runs, I'd be surprised if the HP is really nosing over that much but... I guess the chart doesn't lie.
I think I'd go back to stock rocker arms, check the spring pressures and go from there.. You want to make sure you have atleast 150lbs on the seat and 400lbs open AFTER the springs have been broken in. That's with stock rocker arms that are pretty light.
My new cam calls for 170lbs seat/420lbs open.
Last edited by c5mtl; 02-27-2015 at 01:04 AM.
02-27-2015, 01:16 AM
#23
Le Mans Master
Can't really go back to stock arm....with bronze guides the stock rockers would put to much side load on the valves . So not really sure which direction to take. As far as my runs they have always been no filter and small bell mouth. I'm also looking for an intake and really don't mind cutting hood but I don't want to cut the cowl. What's your take on super victor and elbow
Bret used to have a Vic jr and big elbow, he made 1060rwhp thru it and he said the air distribution is terrible thru the intake. Also the intake volume is very small. The Super Victor would be better.. I'm not sold on it yet though.
Lots of turbo guys are having great luck with the Holley High Ram, I think that's the intake to have if you don't mind cutting... That or the edelbrock Pro Flo.....
I've seen a guy cut the rear of a Pro Flo off and box it in, basically shortening the intake. He still had to cut the cowl some but not bad, kept the wipers even.
Personally, I still think the Fast intakes are the best performing over all... IF you can keep them from leaking boost and splitting.
BTW I have bronze guides, stock rockers and I put 8k miles on it, we just tore the engine apart and broke the heads down, guides are still perfect... I think the stock rocker/bronze guides issue is a wives tale.
I'm guessing you have Jessel shaft mounts? those should be good as well... It just seems to me that most people that don't run stock rockers, end up having valve float issues...but that's just my opinion.
If we had square port heads, we would throw an LS7 intake on it and be done...Problem solved... Cathedral heads have limited options for intakes unless you want to drop $3k for a PMC sheetmetal intake.
02-27-2015, 01:22 AM
#24
Melting Slicks
Stock rockers with truion upgrade here with afr 230 heads and bronze guides, builder tore the engine down the past winter and said heads/guides still looked new after 8k hard miles.
02-27-2015, 12:43 PM
#25
Drifting
Thread Starter
I thought about it as well... Not the low profile elbow but the big full size sheetmetal one..
Bret used to have a Vic jr and big elbow, he made 1060rwhp thru it and he said the air distribution is terrible thru the intake. Also the intake volume is very small. The Super Victor would be better.. I'm not sold on it yet though.
Lots of turbo guys are having great luck with the Holley High Ram, I think that's the intake to have if you don't mind cutting... That or the edelbrock Pro Flo.....
I've seen a guy cut the rear of a Pro Flo off and box it in, basically shortening the intake. He still had to cut the cowl some but not bad, kept the wipers even.
Personally, I still think the Fast intakes are the best performing over all... IF you can keep them from leaking boost and splitting.
BTW I have bronze guides, stock rockers and I put 8k miles on it, we just tore the engine apart and broke the heads down, guides are still perfect... I think the stock rocker/bronze guides issue is a wives tale.
I'm guessing you have Jessel shaft mounts? those should be good as well... It just seems to me that most people that don't run stock rockers, end up having valve float issues...but that's just my opinion.
If we had square port heads, we would throw an LS7 intake on it and be done...Problem solved... Cathedral heads have limited options for intakes unless you want to drop $3k for a PMC sheetmetal intake.
Bret used to have a Vic jr and big elbow, he made 1060rwhp thru it and he said the air distribution is terrible thru the intake. Also the intake volume is very small. The Super Victor would be better.. I'm not sold on it yet though.
Lots of turbo guys are having great luck with the Holley High Ram, I think that's the intake to have if you don't mind cutting... That or the edelbrock Pro Flo.....
I've seen a guy cut the rear of a Pro Flo off and box it in, basically shortening the intake. He still had to cut the cowl some but not bad, kept the wipers even.
Personally, I still think the Fast intakes are the best performing over all... IF you can keep them from leaking boost and splitting.
BTW I have bronze guides, stock rockers and I put 8k miles on it, we just tore the engine apart and broke the heads down, guides are still perfect... I think the stock rocker/bronze guides issue is a wives tale.
I'm guessing you have Jessel shaft mounts? those should be good as well... It just seems to me that most people that don't run stock rockers, end up having valve float issues...but that's just my opinion.
If we had square port heads, we would throw an LS7 intake on it and be done...Problem solved... Cathedral heads have limited options for intakes unless you want to drop $3k for a PMC sheetmetal intake.
02-27-2015, 01:38 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
That or at a minimum, use hollow stem 2.16" valves, that is what is in mine... It spins to 7200 rpms easily, however it starts losing power at 6500 (as seen in the above chart), not sure how much power it is down at 7200 but I imagine atleast 100hp...
That's why on the build this time around, I was focused more on high rpm power.
I'll likely be switching to an F1x eventually, but I want to see how fast I can go with the ancient F1R..
The intake thing really stumps me.. I've been looking all over for builds with Super Victors and elbows, not a LOT of info on them... Other then the EFI version with the injector holes have huge seperators in the plenum that will need serious work to make it flow compared to the open plenum carb'd version.
That's why on the build this time around, I was focused more on high rpm power.
I'll likely be switching to an F1x eventually, but I want to see how fast I can go with the ancient F1R..
The intake thing really stumps me.. I've been looking all over for builds with Super Victors and elbows, not a LOT of info on them... Other then the EFI version with the injector holes have huge seperators in the plenum that will need serious work to make it flow compared to the open plenum carb'd version.
02-27-2015, 01:50 PM
#27
Drifting
Thread Starter
That or at a minimum, use hollow stem 2.16" valves, that is what is in mine... It spins to 7200 rpms easily, however it starts losing power at 6500 (as seen in the above chart), not sure how much power it is down at 7200 but I imagine atleast 100hp...
That's why on the build this time around, I was focused more on high rpm power.
I'll likely be switching to an F1x eventually, but I want to see how fast I can go with the ancient F1R..
The intake thing really stumps me.. I've been looking all over for builds with Super Victors and elbows, not a LOT of info on them... Other then the EFI version with the injector holes have huge seperators in the plenum that will need serious work to make it flow compared to the open plenum carb'd version.
That's why on the build this time around, I was focused more on high rpm power.
I'll likely be switching to an F1x eventually, but I want to see how fast I can go with the ancient F1R..
The intake thing really stumps me.. I've been looking all over for builds with Super Victors and elbows, not a LOT of info on them... Other then the EFI version with the injector holes have huge seperators in the plenum that will need serious work to make it flow compared to the open plenum carb'd version.
02-27-2015, 05:28 PM
#28
My car starts to taper off pretty quick after 6600 rpm as well. I hadn't heard about the filter causing it before, but its defintely an interesting idea I plan to try here soon. Granted it won't be apples to apples, ysi - f1x.
I am curious if you have put much thought into the holley mid-rise? Maybe minimal clearancing on the cowl, still retaining wipers and everything could be achieved. Could be a possible option?
Are we all running LS2 intakes? I am running a ported one from Belack Porting but haven't seen any results on paper or a track since switching other than my tune needed adjusting.
I am curious if you have put much thought into the holley mid-rise? Maybe minimal clearancing on the cowl, still retaining wipers and everything could be achieved. Could be a possible option?
Are we all running LS2 intakes? I am running a ported one from Belack Porting but haven't seen any results on paper or a track since switching other than my tune needed adjusting.
02-27-2015, 05:50 PM
#29
Drifting
Thread Starter
I'm still on a ls6... Actually it's aruns old intake and when he sold it to me he said I'm buying a 8sec intake... Guess he was right!
Last edited by c5mtl; 02-27-2015 at 07:25 PM.
02-27-2015, 07:40 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
My car starts to taper off pretty quick after 6600 rpm as well. I hadn't heard about the filter causing it before, but its defintely an interesting idea I plan to try here soon. Granted it won't be apples to apples, ysi - f1x.
I am curious if you have put much thought into the holley mid-rise? Maybe minimal clearancing on the cowl, still retaining wipers and everything could be achieved. Could be a possible option?
Are we all running LS2 intakes? I am running a ported one from Belack Porting but haven't seen any results on paper or a track since switching other than my tune needed adjusting.
I am curious if you have put much thought into the holley mid-rise? Maybe minimal clearancing on the cowl, still retaining wipers and everything could be achieved. Could be a possible option?
Are we all running LS2 intakes? I am running a ported one from Belack Porting but haven't seen any results on paper or a track since switching other than my tune needed adjusting.
I also thought about porting the LS6 intake and TB but.. Not sure it's worth the $500..
This time around, I'm going back together with the LS6, I'll Dyno and compare my charts to the old cam, then decide if I want to change intakes. I'm kind of leaning towards the Fast 102/LS2 TB, given the risk of the 2 pc intake. Most people claim you gain nothing with intake swaps on boost combos but.....I just don't believe it.. If ported or aftermarket heads make more power on boost, how would an intake that has similar flow characteristics not help?
I get so sick of the "you can make 1k with an ls6, why change?" .. well maybe it would make 1100 with a fast or high ram, that's FKn why..
02-27-2015, 10:44 PM
#31
Le Mans Master
Its very possible a different intake can make more power, but like mentioned it seems hard to find data.
Louis, I am going to throw my car back on the dyno and make a pull to 6800 to see what happens. From the look of my chart at 6400 I cant see it dropping to hard in another 400 rpm. This will eliminate certain possibilities. I don't think bigger valves are the answer. Maybe bigger heads, but mine are only 20 cc more. Don't see a huge difference there. There has to be a reason that mine isn't dropping off, even with the air filter on. Maybe with the amount of boost you guys run, its just pushing too much air and at the limit of something. Intake, heads, intercoolers.. I don't know what.
Louis, I am going to throw my car back on the dyno and make a pull to 6800 to see what happens. From the look of my chart at 6400 I cant see it dropping to hard in another 400 rpm. This will eliminate certain possibilities. I don't think bigger valves are the answer. Maybe bigger heads, but mine are only 20 cc more. Don't see a huge difference there. There has to be a reason that mine isn't dropping off, even with the air filter on. Maybe with the amount of boost you guys run, its just pushing too much air and at the limit of something. Intake, heads, intercoolers.. I don't know what.
02-27-2015, 11:56 PM
#32
Drifting
Thread Starter
Its very possible a different intake can make more power, but like mentioned it seems hard to find data.
Louis, I am going to throw my car back on the dyno and make a pull to 6800 to see what happens. From the look of my chart at 6400 I cant see it dropping to hard in another 400 rpm. This will eliminate certain possibilities. I don't think bigger valves are the answer. Maybe bigger heads, but mine are only 20 cc more. Don't see a huge difference there. There has to be a reason that mine isn't dropping off, even with the air filter on. Maybe with the amount of boost you guys run, its just pushing too much air and at the limit of something. Intake, heads, intercoolers.. I don't know what.
Louis, I am going to throw my car back on the dyno and make a pull to 6800 to see what happens. From the look of my chart at 6400 I cant see it dropping to hard in another 400 rpm. This will eliminate certain possibilities. I don't think bigger valves are the answer. Maybe bigger heads, but mine are only 20 cc more. Don't see a huge difference there. There has to be a reason that mine isn't dropping off, even with the air filter on. Maybe with the amount of boost you guys run, its just pushing too much air and at the limit of something. Intake, heads, intercoolers.. I don't know what.
This way we can watch for belt slip,valve float or anything else. Im starting to think the Dyno chart was all messed up due to my converter not being able to hold power. I'm sure if I Dyno with my new pro torque our charts will line up.
I'm sure most of us in here are past the limit of the intakes....yes they work but how much are we losing and it sucks no real data is out there . Valves won't hurt that's for sure but at 1000$ for titanium valve I'll pass. The reason I brought the valve thing up is a certain for buddy of mine scored a deal on a great set for a client and i figured why not. I'm sure with all that boost pushing the valves something lighter wouldn't hurt.
Hey Jody ....got to admit it's just not the same without the ford guys commenting
Last edited by c5mtl; 02-28-2015 at 12:11 AM.
02-28-2015, 08:19 AM
#33
The mid ram intake sucks. It uses a 2x4 carb style lower intake with 4 hole plenums and they flow terrible. The mid ram, other then the top half, is a completely different intake.
I also thought about porting the LS6 intake and TB but.. Not sure it's worth the $500..
This time around, I'm going back together with the LS6, I'll Dyno and compare my charts to the old cam, then decide if I want to change intakes. I'm kind of leaning towards the Fast 102/LS2 TB, given the risk of the 2 pc intake. Most people claim you gain nothing with intake swaps on boost combos but.....I just don't believe it.. If ported or aftermarket heads make more power on boost, how would an intake that has similar flow characteristics not help?
I get so sick of the "you can make 1k with an ls6, why change?" .. well maybe it would make 1100 with a fast or high ram, that's FKn why..
I also thought about porting the LS6 intake and TB but.. Not sure it's worth the $500..
This time around, I'm going back together with the LS6, I'll Dyno and compare my charts to the old cam, then decide if I want to change intakes. I'm kind of leaning towards the Fast 102/LS2 TB, given the risk of the 2 pc intake. Most people claim you gain nothing with intake swaps on boost combos but.....I just don't believe it.. If ported or aftermarket heads make more power on boost, how would an intake that has similar flow characteristics not help?
I get so sick of the "you can make 1k with an ls6, why change?" .. well maybe it would make 1100 with a fast or high ram, that's FKn why..
I'd be lying if I think the car didn't get slower after removing it. Never dyno'd a before and after and I soon changed the heads, blower, intake a bunch of other things anyways.
Curious if the new MSD intake will stand up to boost, I haven't seen any actual data yet on it other than some misc crap on FB. Just don't want to pop my motor or go lean from an intake cracking or blowing apart under pressure.
02-28-2015, 09:26 AM
#34
talking about all these valvetrain parts..what lifters u guys run
so far im running ls7 lifters to 6500rpm with out issues...
maybe step up to a morel
so far im running ls7 lifters to 6500rpm with out issues...
maybe step up to a morel
02-28-2015, 09:49 AM
#35
Le Mans Master
Jody...u want a real good comparison?? Slap on that 2.75 and then do a pull and don't lock the converter for one run.
This way we can watch for belt slip,valve float or anything else. Im starting to think the Dyno chart was all messed up due to my converter not being able to hold power. I'm sure if I Dyno with my new pro torque our charts will line up.
I'm sure most of us in here are past the limit of the intakes....yes they work but how much are we losing and it sucks no real data is out there . Valves won't hurt that's for sure but at 1000$ for titanium valve I'll pass. The reason I brought the valve thing up is a certain for buddy of mine scored a deal on a great set for a client and i figured why not. I'm sure with all that boost pushing the valves something lighter wouldn't hurt.
Hey Jody ....got to admit it's just not the same without the ford guys commenting
This way we can watch for belt slip,valve float or anything else. Im starting to think the Dyno chart was all messed up due to my converter not being able to hold power. I'm sure if I Dyno with my new pro torque our charts will line up.
I'm sure most of us in here are past the limit of the intakes....yes they work but how much are we losing and it sucks no real data is out there . Valves won't hurt that's for sure but at 1000$ for titanium valve I'll pass. The reason I brought the valve thing up is a certain for buddy of mine scored a deal on a great set for a client and i figured why not. I'm sure with all that boost pushing the valves something lighter wouldn't hurt.
Hey Jody ....got to admit it's just not the same without the ford guys commenting
Maybe you can get the ford boys to sign up here and come insult us !!
Last edited by realcanuk; 02-28-2015 at 10:02 AM.
02-28-2015, 09:51 AM
#36
Le Mans Master
I am running Morels and have never had float or issues. The highest dyno sheet I can find is to 6700, but it has been more. I also have aftermarket rockers, which everyone says are not good, but they have been great for me. Would so the same setup again.
Last edited by realcanuk; 02-28-2015 at 10:03 AM.
02-28-2015, 10:32 AM
#37
Drifting
Thread Starter
I'm running comp short travel
02-28-2015, 11:17 AM
#38
Le Mans Master
I just ordered a new set for my rebuild.
I own 2 sets of Morels in big blocks, honestly I'm not real happy with them. I'm sure the retro big block stuff is different but, I get a ton of noise out of them cold and it actually misses a bit until the oil heats up, regardless of where the preload is...
I wasn't gonna deal with that crap on my "nice" car.
You have to pay attention to the push rods to. Make sure you have good thick pushrods in it. I use 7/16" and 3/8" push rods.. Lots of guys are going to 1/2" push rods for the 7k+ rpm stuff. Push rod deflection will cause high ron instability as well.
02-28-2015, 02:14 PM
#39
Le Mans Master
LS7s, spun to 7200 cleanly...never an issue or a sound out of them.
I just ordered a new set for my rebuild.
I own 2 sets of Morels in big blocks, honestly I'm not real happy with them. I'm sure the retro big block stuff is different but, I get a ton of noise out of them cold and it actually misses a bit until the oil heats up, regardless of where the preload is...
I wasn't gonna deal with that crap on my "nice" car.
You have to pay attention to the push rods to. Make sure you have good thick pushrods in it. I use 7/16" and 3/8" push rods.. Lots of guys are going to 1/2" push rods for the 7k+ rpm stuff. Push rod deflection will cause high ron instability as well.
I just ordered a new set for my rebuild.
I own 2 sets of Morels in big blocks, honestly I'm not real happy with them. I'm sure the retro big block stuff is different but, I get a ton of noise out of them cold and it actually misses a bit until the oil heats up, regardless of where the preload is...
I wasn't gonna deal with that crap on my "nice" car.
You have to pay attention to the push rods to. Make sure you have good thick pushrods in it. I use 7/16" and 3/8" push rods.. Lots of guys are going to 1/2" push rods for the 7k+ rpm stuff. Push rod deflection will cause high ron instability as well.
My thinking when I do my builds is always the same. Read, ask, read some more. Get as much good information as possible. Then after that I always go with what I think is the best option, even if its not the common way or the "norm". Maybe I am just lucky, but this has worked flawlessly for me.
If I believe all I read about LS rockers, I would have stock ones. Been running comp ultra golds for 4 seasons now without a hiccup. I just checked wipe patterns while it was apart and they are perfect.
Lots of different ways to do things it seems.
