Dewitts 17" Brushless fan install and epic C5 cooling system thread...
08-25-2015, 09:44 PM
#21
I know its sucking good air but what about the condenser, looks pretty rough. Just throwing things out there at ya. And also what about water pump? I have an ls1 pump I just took off if you want to try it out. You pay shipping and can have it, the offer will be there.
08-25-2015, 09:59 PM
#22
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I know its sucking good air but what about the condenser, looks pretty rough. Just throwing things out there at ya. And also what about water pump? I have an ls1 pump I just took off if you want to try it out. You pay shipping and can have it, the offer will be there.
My water pump is a new 2004 LS6 pump that is less then 1 year old with about 1200 miles on it.
The condenser is the original one to the car with 35k miles on it.
If the fan is pulling decent thru the IC, then it's pull good through the condenser... But I still may need more flow.
I did test voltage at the fan plugs and had 14.0v at idle at the plugs, so the fans are getting good volts.
08-26-2015, 12:17 AM
#23
Instructor
I tried this, sold my 850 rwhp c5 z06 and went to a 630 rwhp N/A c6 z06. I have since sold the c6 z06 and I'm back with my c5. 200 rwhp and FI is hard to match regardless of how tired you get with a setup.
08-26-2015, 07:05 AM
#24
Le Mans Master
I had the same problem with the TTiX even with the tiger shark nose
the intercooler and auto tranny cooler make a very thick cooling stack which take a ton of fan pull.
I went with the low profile dewittes twin spal fan setup and it definitely cured the issues. each fan pulls 3000 cfm or something ridiculous like that but it's needed.
I'd like to also relocate my tranny cooler so its not in front of the intercooler as that's just wrong IMHO.
but it does keep the tranny cool up there and the fan almost never comes on (set at 205 for the tranny fluid)
I think the shroud puts the fan too far away from the rad core and likely "leaks a bit" which is allowing cool air to pull in but not through the rad.
I saw a setup that I like even better. it's 4 smaller fans that cover more of the rad core and flow 2000 cfm each
that will do the job!!!
the kid with the gun to his head cracks me up. hey, excrement occurs.
he who attempts much and fails on occasion, is much further along than those that attempt nothing and consistently succeed!
the intercooler and auto tranny cooler make a very thick cooling stack which take a ton of fan pull.
I went with the low profile dewittes twin spal fan setup and it definitely cured the issues. each fan pulls 3000 cfm or something ridiculous like that but it's needed.
I'd like to also relocate my tranny cooler so its not in front of the intercooler as that's just wrong IMHO.
but it does keep the tranny cool up there and the fan almost never comes on (set at 205 for the tranny fluid)
I think the shroud puts the fan too far away from the rad core and likely "leaks a bit" which is allowing cool air to pull in but not through the rad.
I saw a setup that I like even better. it's 4 smaller fans that cover more of the rad core and flow 2000 cfm each
that will do the job!!!
the kid with the gun to his head cracks me up. hey, excrement occurs.
he who attempts much and fails on occasion, is much further along than those that attempt nothing and consistently succeed!
08-30-2015, 04:13 PM
#25
1st Gear
Member Since: Aug 2015
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I think I know why your fan is not starting back up after heat soaking....
OK, let me update this mess for anyone that is bored enough to be following along...
Day 2 test with the 17" brushless fan was to remove the intercooler all together and drive it.
Huge gap... Measured 8" in the closest point... Much better then my usual 2" gap.
The fan came on around 174*, I ran it around the neighborhood a bunch of times, stopping and starting. Within 20 mins, it was at 230*.... It sat at 232* for about 7-8 mins so I thought maybe I had found the plateau. So I took it out on the road, getting up to 40-50 mph and it never really cooled down..I suspect this was due to the blower discharge dumping metric tons of air flow right in front of the radiator when the rpms are at 2k. I go to a gas station, gas up and start out home, temps sore.... Turns out the fan is not on.. Once again, the fan does not restart after its been shut off.. I limp it home and cool it down with the water hose. I come back to it a few hours later...
Its cooled down, I fire it up and the fan is on, so I go back to idling, the temp continues to creep... I saw 238* and normally, I shut off the ac but this time I wanted to see how high it would go... Finally once it hit 245*, I cooled it down with a water hose across the core and called it a day.
So today I wire up the override switch, I figure I'll just override the temp switch and make the fan run all the time as it will be running most of the time anyway. I put the intercooler back on and put everything back to normal. Fan is on, override is working I run it for 10 mins in the garage, hit 220* so I figured I'd test drive it. I shut it off long enough for me to go grab my wallet and a drink, come back out, fire it up and take off... Before I get to the end of my neighborhood, its at 245* and climbing fast. AC shut off, I turn around and haul *** home, you guessed it, fan is not on. Even with the override switch on, the damn fan is not on.. Its 250* by the time I can get the water hose on the core to cool it off.
At this point, I am so freakin pissed off I can't even see straight. I call John at Dewitts and we discuss everything, he recommend going back to the duals while we figure out the issue with the fan/harness. So I do just that.
While I was in there, I sealed up the core to the frame:
I get the duals back on, fire it up, lay under the car to compare the drafts and there was no contest, they were CONSIDERABLY stronger the 17" brushless.... They actually had some pressure across the floor.
SO I decide to try my suction test with the same piece of paper in the same locations that I did with the 17" brushless...
No comparison...
17" brushless:
Dual 12"
It literally pulled the paper out of my hand from the license plate hole
No doubt on my car, the 12" duals pull a lot more air then the 17" brushless. I call John at Dewitts and discuss everything, we pretty much determined that the 12" duals are probably the best flowing for my car, only bettered by the 12" dual brushless, which there is no way I can fit in there with the blower.
I am sending the 17" brushless back to dewitts for testing, they are going to troubleshoot it and see why it operates the way it does, why it never stays running after the car is off etc etc.. John was absolutely great to deal with and had no issue giving me back a credit... I just can't recommend those guys enough...(besides the fact I currently own 4 of their radiators).
Moving forward,
I made a new support brace that would allow me to "roll" the bumper cover up higher into the bumper area to open up some more gap to the IC..
Tomorrow I am going to road test the car, hopefully I haven't hurt it by it hitting 240-250 twice while screwing with the other fan.
My next test will be to remove the intercooler again and run it with the duals and see if it cools it down more at idle, if it does, I'll be relocating the IC to the license plate area.... Doing this test with the 17" brushless showed no improvement, but judging how much more air flow the duals have, maybe it will pay off... We'll see.
I know I'm tired of FKN with this thing though.
Day 2 test with the 17" brushless fan was to remove the intercooler all together and drive it.
Huge gap... Measured 8" in the closest point... Much better then my usual 2" gap.
The fan came on around 174*, I ran it around the neighborhood a bunch of times, stopping and starting. Within 20 mins, it was at 230*.... It sat at 232* for about 7-8 mins so I thought maybe I had found the plateau. So I took it out on the road, getting up to 40-50 mph and it never really cooled down..I suspect this was due to the blower discharge dumping metric tons of air flow right in front of the radiator when the rpms are at 2k. I go to a gas station, gas up and start out home, temps sore.... Turns out the fan is not on.. Once again, the fan does not restart after its been shut off.. I limp it home and cool it down with the water hose. I come back to it a few hours later...
Its cooled down, I fire it up and the fan is on, so I go back to idling, the temp continues to creep... I saw 238* and normally, I shut off the ac but this time I wanted to see how high it would go... Finally once it hit 245*, I cooled it down with a water hose across the core and called it a day.
So today I wire up the override switch, I figure I'll just override the temp switch and make the fan run all the time as it will be running most of the time anyway. I put the intercooler back on and put everything back to normal. Fan is on, override is working I run it for 10 mins in the garage, hit 220* so I figured I'd test drive it. I shut it off long enough for me to go grab my wallet and a drink, come back out, fire it up and take off... Before I get to the end of my neighborhood, its at 245* and climbing fast. AC shut off, I turn around and haul *** home, you guessed it, fan is not on. Even with the override switch on, the damn fan is not on.. Its 250* by the time I can get the water hose on the core to cool it off.
At this point, I am so freakin pissed off I can't even see straight. I call John at Dewitts and we discuss everything, he recommend going back to the duals while we figure out the issue with the fan/harness. So I do just that.
While I was in there, I sealed up the core to the frame:
I get the duals back on, fire it up, lay under the car to compare the drafts and there was no contest, they were CONSIDERABLY stronger the 17" brushless.... They actually had some pressure across the floor.
SO I decide to try my suction test with the same piece of paper in the same locations that I did with the 17" brushless...
No comparison...
17" brushless:
Dual 12"
It literally pulled the paper out of my hand from the license plate hole
No doubt on my car, the 12" duals pull a lot more air then the 17" brushless. I call John at Dewitts and discuss everything, we pretty much determined that the 12" duals are probably the best flowing for my car, only bettered by the 12" dual brushless, which there is no way I can fit in there with the blower.
I am sending the 17" brushless back to dewitts for testing, they are going to troubleshoot it and see why it operates the way it does, why it never stays running after the car is off etc etc.. John was absolutely great to deal with and had no issue giving me back a credit... I just can't recommend those guys enough...(besides the fact I currently own 4 of their radiators).
Moving forward,
I made a new support brace that would allow me to "roll" the bumper cover up higher into the bumper area to open up some more gap to the IC..
Tomorrow I am going to road test the car, hopefully I haven't hurt it by it hitting 240-250 twice while screwing with the other fan.
My next test will be to remove the intercooler again and run it with the duals and see if it cools it down more at idle, if it does, I'll be relocating the IC to the license plate area.... Doing this test with the 17" brushless showed no improvement, but judging how much more air flow the duals have, maybe it will pay off... We'll see.
I know I'm tired of FKN with this thing though.
Spal 17” Bushless Fan, P/N 30107035 has a brushless motor that features “over temperature” protection. According Mark Kitlinski at Spal USA, the controls portion of the fan motor has a auto protection feature which causes it to shut down temporarily if the temperature of the controls circuit board goes above the set limit of 240*F. I have dual 12” Flush Mount Brushless Fans (30107033) for my 1991 5.0L Mustang and I wanted to switch to a single 17” brushless fan to reduce power consumption from dual fans. All of the Spal Brusless fans draw about 23-25 amps at full speed. My dual brushless fans draw a combined 50 amps at full speed. The Spal Engineer (Kitlinski) advised me to stay with the dual 12” brushless fans if possible due the fact that I live in Phoenix AZ and Spal’s testing in this area uncovered the issue that you are having now. It seems that guys at the track were having the 17 inch brushless fan shut down on them also, in between runs until they could cool off. According to Mr. Kitlinski, the 12” brushless fans have a higher over temp limit and don’t have this issue when used in extremely hot climates (115*F and up). I think he is right because my dual brushless fans have not had this problem and the temps here in Phoenix were a record breaking 117*F about 3 weeks ago. I drive my car to work every day in bumper to bumper traffic with no issues. You may have to devise some sort of hood ventilation system to reduce the heat soak. Call Spal USA at (800) 454-7725 or email Mr. Kitlinski at mkitlinski@spalusa.com. Good luck with you cooling issue. Thanks for your time.
Jim Tunstell, Phoenix AZ
08-30-2015, 04:58 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
The controller is shutting off the fan? or the fan itself is shutting down?
Either way, doesn't make much sense to ever shut the fan down.
I would use (2) 40 amp relays controlled by the stock pcm signal & have them powered straight to the battery.
I'd also have a manual switched circuit
Either way, doesn't make much sense to ever shut the fan down.
I would use (2) 40 amp relays controlled by the stock pcm signal & have them powered straight to the battery.
I'd also have a manual switched circuit
08-30-2015, 05:05 PM
#28
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
The controller is shutting off the fan? or the fan itself is shutting down?
Either way, doesn't make much sense to ever shut the fan down.
I would use (2) 40 amp relays controlled by the stock pcm signal & have them powered straight to the battery.
I'd also have a manual switched circuit
Either way, doesn't make much sense to ever shut the fan down.
I would use (2) 40 amp relays controlled by the stock pcm signal & have them powered straight to the battery.
I'd also have a manual switched circuit
The fan would come on at the correct temp (172* ish) dictated by the sensor, or if the override switch was flipped on, and the fan would stay on.
However, if you shut the engine/key off (killing switched power to the fan), the fan would NOT come back on until the temp switch was BELOW its start up temp and triggered again...nor would the override switch start the fan.
The fan has its own internal relay/processor and programmed logic... Obviously, something was wrong, either with the temp switch, fan logic or relay. The two fan harnesses were tied together.
08-30-2015, 05:26 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
The fan would come on at the correct temp (172* ish) dictated by the sensor, or if the override switch was flipped on, and the fan would stay on.
However, if you shut the engine/key off (killing switched power to the fan), the fan would NOT come back on until the temp switch was BELOW its start up temp and triggered again...nor would the override switch start the fan.
The fan has its own internal relay/processor and programmed logic... Obviously, something was wrong, either with the temp switch, fan logic or relay. The two fan harnesses were tied together.
However, if you shut the engine/key off (killing switched power to the fan), the fan would NOT come back on until the temp switch was BELOW its start up temp and triggered again...nor would the override switch start the fan.
The fan has its own internal relay/processor and programmed logic... Obviously, something was wrong, either with the temp switch, fan logic or relay. The two fan harnesses were tied together.
Makes me wonder if the 17" fan was getting enough juice
Did you try direct wiring the fan to the battery?
08-30-2015, 05:55 PM
#30
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
The fans relays/processor are all internal in the fan, it had two harnesses, the main power harness (4 wire) and the sensor harness (4 wire that also received 12v switched power), so the logic of the fan with its soft start operation was weird logic.
However even when the fan did stay on (before shutting the car off), it would eventually get much hotter then with the dual 12s. I even removed the intercooler and drove without it, after 40 mins of mixed traffic driving, temps hit 245* ish before I killed the AC and headed for a water hose.
I put the IC back on and the dual 12s back on, did a similar drive the next day and barely hit 230*...(with the IC on).
I am going to do one last experiment tho, at some point. I just bought a Lincoln MKVIII fan (which I LOVE on my 71'), I'm going to see if I can make it fit on the cut down radiator, wire it with 50 amp external relays and see if it cools any better then the duals. If it does, I'll tie in into the OEM harness so the ECU will trigger it to come on.
It's a bad a$$ fan for sure, just not sure if it's better then dual 12s. If it doesn't work, I'll keep it for a spare for my 71...
09-01-2015, 06:50 PM
#32
Melting Slicks
As I was driving home in 95 degree heat in Delaware on Sept 1'st and watching my temps climb, I was thinking about this thread.
Just a thought more than anything, but has anyone tried putting the condenser on the other side of the radiator? i realize this may be shifting the problem elsewhere, but was just curious if having the fans pulling through the condenser directly and pulling air through the radiator, if this might keep the coolant temps down.
I know there are logistics involved here with mounting tabs and ac lines, but maybe a way to rig it for a test, although a lot of work at play here.
I appreciate the condenser might then be getting heat soaked from the radiator, but maybe the end result is more desirable then what is currently happening.
Also, I know you confirmed without the ic and the 17" fan, but did you confirm that temps are under control with the duals and no IC? i know this would be more like stock, but just a check box to say you did it and the temps were confirmed to be under control.
John
Just a thought more than anything, but has anyone tried putting the condenser on the other side of the radiator? i realize this may be shifting the problem elsewhere, but was just curious if having the fans pulling through the condenser directly and pulling air through the radiator, if this might keep the coolant temps down.
I know there are logistics involved here with mounting tabs and ac lines, but maybe a way to rig it for a test, although a lot of work at play here.
I appreciate the condenser might then be getting heat soaked from the radiator, but maybe the end result is more desirable then what is currently happening.
Also, I know you confirmed without the ic and the 17" fan, but did you confirm that temps are under control with the duals and no IC? i know this would be more like stock, but just a check box to say you did it and the temps were confirmed to be under control.
John
09-01-2015, 07:52 PM
#33
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
John, I haven't tried running without the IC yet with the duals, I may be trying that soon, however I am going to experiment with a Lincoln MKVIII fan next, if I can manage to get it to fit. I'm not sure it will be any better then the dual 12s, however, it kicks a$$ on my 71' with a Dewitts radiator. I can idle all day long in 100* heat with the AC on and it cycles between 180-185*... Never seen 190*...
If it proves that it is no better then the dual 12s, then I'll pull the IC and test without it. If it helps, I'll cut the frame and relocate the IC.
If it proves that it is no better then the dual 12s, then I'll pull the IC and test without it. If it helps, I'll cut the frame and relocate the IC.
09-01-2015, 08:00 PM
#34
Melting Slicks
As I was driving home in 95 degree heat in Delaware on Sept 1'st and watching my temps climb, I was thinking about this thread.
Just a thought more than anything, but has anyone tried putting the condenser on the other side of the radiator? i realize this may be shifting the problem elsewhere, but was just curious if having the fans pulling through the condenser directly and pulling air through the radiator, if this might keep the coolant temps down.
I know there are logistics involved here with mounting tabs and ac lines, but maybe a way to rig it for a test, although a lot of work at play here.
I appreciate the condenser might then be getting heat soaked from the radiator, but maybe the end result is more desirable then what is currently happening.
Also, I know you confirmed without the ic and the 17" fan, but did you confirm that temps are under control with the duals and no IC? i know this would be more like stock, but just a check box to say you did it and the temps were confirmed to be under control.
John
Just a thought more than anything, but has anyone tried putting the condenser on the other side of the radiator? i realize this may be shifting the problem elsewhere, but was just curious if having the fans pulling through the condenser directly and pulling air through the radiator, if this might keep the coolant temps down.
I know there are logistics involved here with mounting tabs and ac lines, but maybe a way to rig it for a test, although a lot of work at play here.
I appreciate the condenser might then be getting heat soaked from the radiator, but maybe the end result is more desirable then what is currently happening.
Also, I know you confirmed without the ic and the 17" fan, but did you confirm that temps are under control with the duals and no IC? i know this would be more like stock, but just a check box to say you did it and the temps were confirmed to be under control.
John
My 2 cents
09-01-2015, 08:06 PM
#35
Melting Slicks
John, I haven't tried running without the IC yet with the duals, I may be trying that soon, however I am going to experiment with a Lincoln MKVIII fan next, if I can manage to get it to fit. I'm not sure it will be any better then the dual 12s, however, it kicks a$$ on my 71' with a Dewitts radiator. I can idle all day long in 100* heat with the AC on and it cycles between 180-185*... Never seen 190*...
If it proves that it is no better then the dual 12s, then I'll pull the IC and test without it. If it helps, I'll cut the frame and relocate the IC.
If it proves that it is no better then the dual 12s, then I'll pull the IC and test without it. If it helps, I'll cut the frame and relocate the IC.
09-01-2015, 09:34 PM
#36
Melting Slicks
I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere......but maybe we are looking at the wrong end of this thing......maybe we should concentrate on what happens to air after it goes through coolers. What is the design for this....where is it suppose to go? we are getting more air in.....it has to be able to get out or you will not get much improvement overall.
09-01-2015, 11:01 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
Glad to see you attacking the issue.
Here's what worked for mine when I had the F2 on it.
I don't have the rear steam vents hooked up fwiw. Stock water pump that was on the car when I bought it, replaced stock coolant tank cap with a new cheap O'reilly's cap. I don't recall the water to antifreeze ratio.
Dewitt's cut down radiator, Jegs dual fan assembly, the seal on it is awesome. Custom top shroud, radiator is stood straight up, I have a few inches between the i/c and condenser. The one change that made it all work was the fan set up.
Here is how my fan is setup in the tune.
Fan 1 on at 170
Off at 165
Fan 2 on at 175
Off at 170
This work liked gangbusters for me. Would never see over 215-218 in the heat here in OK with the A/C on it. Cruising temps would be in the 180 range and that's with a stock front bumper and bumper support.
Here's what worked for mine when I had the F2 on it.
I don't have the rear steam vents hooked up fwiw. Stock water pump that was on the car when I bought it, replaced stock coolant tank cap with a new cheap O'reilly's cap. I don't recall the water to antifreeze ratio.
Dewitt's cut down radiator, Jegs dual fan assembly, the seal on it is awesome. Custom top shroud, radiator is stood straight up, I have a few inches between the i/c and condenser. The one change that made it all work was the fan set up.
Here is how my fan is setup in the tune.
Fan 1 on at 170
Off at 165
Fan 2 on at 175
Off at 170
This work liked gangbusters for me. Would never see over 215-218 in the heat here in OK with the A/C on it. Cruising temps would be in the 180 range and that's with a stock front bumper and bumper support.
09-04-2015, 02:03 AM
#39
Drifting
Man I thought my 212 was freaking hot today with the A/C on! I've done some testing and mine has gotten up to 215 but I haven't got above that cruising in stop and go traffic I guess I shouldn't be complaining since my block is like 2/3's filled with hard block as well. At night it stays in the 195ish range and anything below 84 outside and it will go down to 183-185 range oil is about 8* cooler at just about any temp. I was just used to the 175-178* range it used to run. But at least your getting to drive the beast.
09-05-2015, 01:15 AM
#40
Melting Slicks
Man I thought my 212 was freaking hot today with the A/C on! I've done some testing and mine has gotten up to 215 but I haven't got above that cruising in stop and go traffic I guess I shouldn't be complaining since my block is like 2/3's filled with hard block as well. At night it stays in the 195ish range and anything below 84 outside and it will go down to 183-185 range oil is about 8* cooler at just about any temp. I was just used to the 175-178* range it used to run. But at least your getting to drive the beast.
