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Just had LME refresh my 406 and I put in a new clutch, installed some lingenfelter cold side inlet tubes plus many other upgrades yet I still have some oil smoke after WOT runs.
I found a set of low profile turbo drain adaptors and I had a local fabricator build me a oil scavenge tank. This allows me to actually have a down hill slope to the drain lines as well as a place for the oil to drain off into and clear the lines. I will try it out this week after the rain moves out. If this doesn't stop the smoke I guess I may have a turbo seal issue. These are DKT 6266 turbos less than 3000 miles so hopefully not the turbos.
Well mine puffs on every shift, but no real smoke. And I never loose any real oil level in the oil system so not sure if its fuel or oil, but its always done it and I've redone my scavenge lines about 4 different ways and the last three were all pretty good, none showed any measureable difference. Its always from the driver side turbo as its the lowest and at the greatest angle, that shows any signs of oil leaking by any part of the turbo. But never anything that makes me want to throw it away lol. If some one sees the puff of smoke they are not going to say anything as they don't want to tell anyone why they were able to see it anyways LOL!
Even though my kit is custom I do see these light puffs on high rpm shifts also. I run journal bearing turbos so I figured a bb chra would smoke less due to oil flow, but maybe not. The main issue is the turbo shaft seals don't like to work so well then the turbo is tilted too much. The problem might be amplified at throttle snap if the exhaust experiences any vacuum post turbine. I dunno really
Most cars I see videos of kits that are low mount tend to smoke slightly on wot shifts. I thought about redoing my lines also, but it sounds like it would not really do much.
Very cool from a fellow APS guy. Tell me more about the cold side pipes from Lingenfelter.
I found an unused set of Lingenfelter C5 twin turbo inlets on the auction site over the summer while waiting on my engine to return from LME. They looked like they would work better than the flexible hoses I have tried. They did but not as well as I would like. Getting adequate breathing for these turbos has been a big struggle due to the C5 kit having the pressure side pipes mounted where the c6 kits inlets run. They limit me to 15 pounds of boost and 780 rwhp. With no inlets and just screens I have been able to do to 20 psi and 920 rwhp. I at least have filtered air on the street and can uncork them for a half mile race etc. I will keep working on a solution for better filtered inlet air.
Last edited by flash of red; 02-03-2016 at 10:14 AM.
Even though my kit is custom I do see these light puffs on high rpm shifts also. I run journal bearing turbos so I figured a bb chra would smoke less due to oil flow, but maybe not. The main issue is the turbo shaft seals don't like to work so well then the turbo is tilted too much. The problem might be amplified at throttle snap if the exhaust experiences any vacuum post turbine. I dunno really
Most cars I see videos of kits that are low mount tend to smoke slightly on wot shifts. I thought about redoing my lines also, but it sounds like it would not really do much.
I haven't been able to try it out since I installed the tank and new drain lines due to rain. I did get to try it out with just the higher mounted drain adaptors before my tank was ready and saw less smoke. Hopefully there will be even less smoke with everything now in place. I don't think removing all smoke will happen.
Not really sure returning into the base of the sump is the best option ? Cant see that making a huge difference over simply routing pipes to the scavenge pump.
Ideally you'd have entered the reservoir at a high level and drained from a lower level
What scavenge pump are you actually using ?
And has been covered many times, strictly speaking there are no oil seals in a turbo. The only actual seal is to prevent either boost or turbine pressure entering the core, not to prevent oil escaping.
Oil in a JB is simply dealt with by a drain that can deal with all flow, and oil slingers to direct oil away from those seals
Not really sure returning into the base of the sump is the best option ? Cant see that making a huge difference over simply routing pipes to the scavenge pump.
Ideally you'd have entered the reservoir at a high level and drained from a lower level
What scavenge pump are you actually using ?
And has been covered many times, strictly speaking there are no oil seals in a turbo. The only actual seal is to prevent either boost or turbine pressure entering the core, not to prevent oil escaping.
Oil in a JB is simply dealt with by a drain that can deal with all flow, and oil slingers to direct oil away from those seals
I mainly was seeking to get a down hill flow available and to have a place for the oil to go without it backing up into the oil lines. The placement of the drains and pump fittings in the tank follows what Lingenfelter does with their tank on their twin turbo designs for the C5. I have found the pump to be able to move the oil faster than the turbos dump it but not so much in getting it up hill and keep the oil lines clear. I drove the car tonight and do not smell the burning oil smell after a boosted hit like I did just prior to the tank install. Too dark to see whether any smoke was there or not.
Last edited by flash of red; 02-03-2016 at 10:22 PM.
Good to know, keep us posted on how it does. Where did you get the oil drain fitting for the turbos? Are they just DKT ones or does someone else make them now?
Good to know, keep us posted on how it does. Where did you get the oil drain fitting for the turbos? Are they just DKT ones or does someone else make them now?
I sent you a link to the vender. It isn't DKT. I tried to get his but never got anywhere.
Stevie, I think most of us here understand that the turbos don't have a rubber like seal keeping oil in the CHRA, but the main issues here is the amount of tilt on the cartridge to fit turbos in this location. Add in about zero ground clearance and you get a situation that is a little harder to tackle than most turbo installs. The ideal thing to do is move things up higher and level it out, but we are just running what we got. I have about $200 into my manifolds with coating so it is what it is at this point. I use the EXA pump with -10 lines and keep the lines low to act as a small sump as much as possible, but the inlet of the pump does end up being higher than the oil outlet of the CHRA and I don't feel that is a positive thing to do. I know the pump can pull oil, but it's always better to not have to.
I suppose one could test this out by running the lines lower in a temporary setup and see how it does. I assume the puff is more due to the tilt and less the the rest of the scavenge setup. Flash, are you thinking about venting the catch tank at all?
Stevie, I think most of us here understand that the turbos don't have a rubber like seal keeping oil in the CHRA, but the main issues here is the amount of tilt on the cartridge to fit turbos in this location. Add in about zero ground clearance and you get a situation that is a little harder to tackle than most turbo installs. The ideal thing to do is move things up higher and level it out, but we are just running what we got. I have about $200 into my manifolds with coating so it is what it is at this point. I use the EXA pump with -10 lines and keep the lines low to act as a small sump as much as possible, but the inlet of the pump does end up being higher than the oil outlet of the CHRA and I don't feel that is a positive thing to do. I know the pump can pull oil, but it's always better to not have to.
I suppose one could test this out by running the lines lower in a temporary setup and see how it does. I assume the puff is more due to the tilt and less the the rest of the scavenge setup. Flash, are you thinking about venting the catch tank at all?
Not at this time. If the pump is able to keep a bit of a vacuum within the tank, to me that would be ideal to encourage the oil to exit the turbos more effeiciently. My theory may be wrong however.
My turbos are mounted as low, if not lower than the Vette setups, I made a small fitting for the bottom of the turbos, not too dissimilar to what's on yours actually ( well height wise anyway, mine look like **** lol, yours look great )
My Exa is mounted at the top of the engine on my old supercharger bracket.
The two turbos link just behind my bellhousing and I've a -10 line off it to the Exa, maybe around 3ft of hose.
I've a crappy non return valve at the tee here too so after shutdown oil shouldnt be able to run back. I also have a 15sec run on timer relay for the pump.
No issues with oil control.
When I vented the small fitting at the oil discharge on the turbos, mine did smoke so I capped them off again and that cleared it up.
I also needed to put a check valve on the oil feed so again after shutdown oil wont syphon into the turbos via gravity. I think APS deal with this using a small solenoid instead.
Those were the only issues I encountered with my low mounts.
Before the check valve on the oil inlet and capping the vents on the oil discharge adaptor, oil would actually make it's way into the boost pipes and intercooler. More seemed to make it's way into the compressor side than turbine, although that's probably because the turbine side burnt off so wasnt so noticeable.
I see, I have a check in the supply line and one on the outlet of the pump before the oil pan. I also have a ~20 second timer relay on the pump. I never really have issues with smoking other than the high rpm shifts. Even under load when shifting at lower rpm I don't really see much for smoke. I'm pretty sure the front to back tilt on my CHRA is over the recommended amount, but I sort of figured a BB turbo might help the situation some due to having a little more restriction to oil flow. This would only help if the problem was the pump not keeping up, but I think the main issue is tilting the CHRA as much as we have.
When I primed my turbos at first start I actually got a bit of oil to drip out the back of the turbos over time even with the drains open to a pan. I think the oil just pools against the slinger and at the end of the shaft. Over time it will drain out of the turbine area since as we know they are not really true seals in the sense. I think having the EXA pulling on the drain helps keep the oil in the CHRA, but the exhaust might just have a little scavenging effect helping to pull the oil out I dunno. I've been to lazy to test any different setups really as I like how mine look and it's not terrible haha. I might try a few things with cheaper hose just to test it out in the future and if something really changes I'll apply it to a high quality line setup.
Not sure on the sealing arrangements on a BB turbo, I'd suspect they do actually seal as oil would need to get right to the bearings themselves, but havent seen one apart.
I'm pretty sure since I had no issues NA, but the heads are different with new seals, guides were ok. I've never had any issues just driving it around and part throttle with boost etc.
I know turbonetics single bb doesn't really have much difference on the exhaust side of the t3/t4 type turbos since it's a single ceramic ball bearing for thrust replacement. Not sure it would gain much if the tilt is the problem. Flash is probably using percision dbb CHRA's, but I'm not sure. I might need to look into the BB just for the extra thrust bearing strength due to my small t3 .81 v band housing and high back pressure anyway.
yes, but tuning, power, fueling etc will all also be a lot different than when it was n/a
Just how bad is the smoke ?
A friend has a 6466 Precision on his Subaru and it sits at a bit of an angle. It would only be on rare occasion it would put a little smoke out. Nothing you could ever make a regular occurrence. But when stopped if you remove the downpipe, you can see traces of oil on the turbine wheel.
But it's certainly not enough that it would ever bother you, and there isnt any actual oil consumption you'd measure worth worrying about.
No it's good on oil consumption and for the most part same as before or less since I run e85 I tend to see more oil dilution and tend to change it more often. As I suspect like your friends subi I would probably see a small trace in the DP'/turbine area. I am a little bit on the picky side so I notice everything and it just bothers me slightly. I'm more curious if I can improve it or not really at this point. When I built my kit I didn't want the oil lines under the oil pan and was going for maximum clearance under the car, but following this thread will at least show others if things improve one way or the other.
Here you can see the angle on the passengers side if you look close.
Finally got a chance see if this system made any improvements. I drove the car to work and had a few chances to make a few boosted hits. The huge cloud of smoke it was sending out has been reduced to a cough of smoke after the getting out of the throttle. No smoke at lower boost hits and no more oil burn smell either. It would be nice to have no smoke at all but at least it is not the cloud of smoke every time I got into boost. I am running -10an lines for crank case breathing from valve cover to valve cover.
The only other thing I could possibly add would be a Lingenfelter belt driven scavenge pump. They are around $600.00
Last edited by flash of red; 02-05-2016 at 12:06 PM.
Finally got a chance see if this system made any improvements. I drove the car to work and had a few chances to make a few boosted hits. The huge cloud of smoke it was sending out has been reduced to a cough of smoke after the getting out of the throttle. No smoke at lower boost hits and no more oil burn smell either. It would be nice to have no smoke at all but at least it is not the cloud of smoke every time I got into boost. I am running -10an lines for crank case breathing from valve cover to valve cover.
The only other thing I could possibly add would be a Lingenfelter belt driven scavenge pump. They are around $600.00
Is that an error, or can the crankcase actually breathe ?
Although with the scavenge pump crankcase breathing is probably less of an issue as the pump should be pulling everything from the turbos regardless.
02-01-2016, 10:34 PM
APS oil scavenge system upgraded
