Pipes

:confused:

Devil Dog

No.

ICULUKN-C5

No... we arent forcing anything...

kromberg

It is a power adder like a S/C or turbo, but it is not forced induction :)

Keith

SleepieAce

:iagree:

Tiger Shark

Negatory. :steering:

LittleBoyBlu99

Forced No ,Getting High Yes :cheers: :thumbs: :lolg:

SilverStateZ06

I don't know what other people consider it to be, but if you think about the term, it seems appropriate.

Naturally aspirated means that the motor is breathing naturally - i.e. it is taking in air without any help from added devices.

Forced induction means that there is some other device, forcing air into the motor. A nitrous kit has a fuel component and an nitrous component. The nitrous component is made up of nitrogen (a cryogenic freezing gas) and oxygen (air). The nitrogen part is the equivalent of an intercooler or aftercooler used on blowers and turbos. The oxygen compoent is forced into the motor from a pressurized bottle. Similarly, a supercharger has an added accessory that runs of the crank pulley forcing air into the motor and a turbo has a turbine in the exhaust that spins and forces air into the motor.

So, although nitrous is different from blowers or turbos, all three force air into the motor and are therefore types of forced induction.

Pipes

I'm skeptical :skep:

Does nitros affect the intake or compression pressures? Certainly no where near even mild turbo or super-charger pressures (6-7 psi).

However, the forced part will not be for 'air', but for oxygen! And here I can agree that 'Forced Induction' seems like a term that could apply. However, the forcing is NOT the increased volume of 'air', but the increased volume of oxygen due to the high oxygen content of nitrousoxide.

Anyway, I bet my son that Nitrous wasn't forced induction. He said it was and that he'd agree with what the CorvetteForum said. After reading the replies to this thread he changed his mind (apparently current wisdom shall not change what he knows to be a fact :D ).

Thanks for the replies. :cheers: :seeya

99blackFRC

No, and nitrous should not be compared to being "forced" into a motor as in the above example. Sorry, but that's not a good analogy... Those components are still being drawn into the engine under vacuum. Different than a supercharger or turbo which truely "forces" air into the motor.

SilverStateZ06

Well, I agree about the difference in pressure, but so what.

I don't think you would say that my car on nitrous is naturally aspirated, would you?

So if my motor is not breathing naturally, and my motor is not receiving forced induction, then what would you call it? Maybe we could make up a new term: vacume enhanced induction. BTW, air includes oxygen, and oxygen is the "O" in N2O.

If you have to choose between the two terms, forced induction versus natural aspiration, forced induction is more appropriate. You have an added air component and an added fuel component that increases cobustion - just like with a blower/turbo. You typically run colder plugs and pull some timing depending on the amount of nitrous/boost that is forced (or vacume inducted if that is even a term) into the motor - just like with a blower/turbo. Even the rule of thumb formulas for estimating e.t. and m.p.h. at sea level versus altitude is the same for blower/turbo cars as it is for nitrous cars. The horsepower and torque levels are also similar.

No one can dispute that nitrous is "different" from a turbo or a blower, but nitrous is more akin to forced induction than it is to natural aspiration.

I am sure if I spend 5-10 grand on a blower or a turbo, instead of 1 grand on a unit, I might be arguing that nitrous does not fall into the same category as blower/turbo setups.

Keep in mind that my opinion is skewed by my result-oriented way of looking at things. It's kind of like that saying, "you are either preganant or your are not". Doesn't matter is it was the result of rape, love, accident, artificial insemination, etc. The result is the same - same with nitrous and same with blower/turbo.

Pipes

You're right, Nitrous isn't natually aspirated, I'd say it was Nitrous.

Well, we don't have to choose between two terms, NA or Forced Induction. BTW the title of this forum is "C5 Forced Induction/Nitrous". I'm ok with the term Nitrous, great stuff.

Also, I have a NA car, so perhaps I can be a bit more objective. I'm not saying one is better than the other, the post was just to clarify to me and my son if people considered Nitrous to be 'Forced Induction'. The answer to this is clear, most folks who have posted do not see Nitrous as a form of Foced Induction.

But, you brought up some good points. Please don't feel that I'm putting down you or your Nitrous Injected Vette.

:grouphug:

99blackFRC

You're right, I woudn't call your car naturally aspirated. And of course we wouldn't call it forced induction, because well, it isn't. :) I guess I'm just not understanding your argument that it must fall into one of the two mentioned catagories. Again, nitrous is not forced into the motor. Do you mean it's "forced" because of the pressure from the bottle? I'd hope not, but just checking.. :)


[Modified by 99blackFRC, 7:47 PM 8/19/2003]

96VIPERGTS

A naturally aspirated car with N2O on it is still naturally aspirated, plain and simple. If there are only two catagories, forced induction and NA, a nitrous car will be NA 100% of the time. Nitrous doesnt FORCE anything into your motor. Most kits point the nozzle toward the throttle body because that just makes since but if you just fogged N20 into the air plenum it would be sucked into the motor under vacuum when the car was running and escape into the atmosphere when the car was not running. NA plain and simple.

SilverStateZ06

Let's take these in order:

Pipes,

You're right nitrous is nitrous and nitrous is not a blower, not a turbo, and not a naturally aspirated motor. But look at the question. Is nitrous considered forced induction. Did you just want everyone to answer and say, nitrous is nitrous? Implicit in your question is whether nitrous is similar to forced induction, enough to be considered forced induction by some. If you look at the opposite of forced induction, namely natural aspiration, then it makes sense to see which of the two categories is more appropriate to put nitrous in. Now I know fathers do not like to lose arguments to their children, so I understand you willingness to now just answer your own question by saying nitrous is nitrous, but why did you ask the question then if you don't want to hear why some people would categorize nitrous as forced induction?

As for whether you like nitrous or not, makes no difference to me. I like turbos (when done right with all the other things needed to make them work), but think they are somewhat expensive. Other than the Cartek guys with their awesome n/a setups, look at which cars e.t. the best - nitrous. Again, I point this out because I am result oriented.

99BlackFRC,

According to this forum member, I am not naturally aspirated. Please see above for why I am illustrating that nitrous is more akin to forced induction than natural aspiration. See below for why I think nitrous cars cannot be considered naturally aspirated.

96ViperGTS,

This member says it is plain and simple that nitrous cars are natrually aspirated. That begs the question, "what does it mean to be natural?" Let's do this the way Justice Scalia would do it - look at the plain meaning of the word.

Webster says that natural is: 1) existing in or formed by nature (opposed to artificial), 2) gorwing or arising spontaneously, 3) having undergone little or no processing and containing no chemical additives, 4) happening in the ordinary or usual course of things, without intervention, 5) not treated, in its original or raw state.

Webster says spontaneous is: 1) coming or resulting from a natural tendency, without effort, 2) arising from internal forces, independent of external forces.

Webster says artificial is: 1) made or produced by humans (opposed to natural), 2) lacking naturalness or spontaneity; FORCED, 3) chemical in composition.

Webster says forced is: 1) an influence on a system, producing a change in movement or other effects, 2) to grown at an increased rate by artificial means, 3) unnatural.

Air exists in nature. Air enters the motor naturally through the airbox, through the mass air, through the tbody, through the intake, and ultimately into the combustion chamber where power is generated igniting the air and fuel that has entered it via a spark plug.

Nitous oxide does not exist in nature. It is artificial. You combine two atoms of nitrogen and one atom of oxygen and end up with a molucules, namely N2O. Nitrogen and oxygen are processed and chemically combined. Aditives such as sulphur are used, and ultimately, the treated product is sold for use in automobiles.

Now let's look at whether this artificial product spontaneously makes its way into the combustion chamber. Spontaneous induction is when your car sucks air into the car without any outside interference. As said before, from the airbox, through the mass air, through the tbody, through the intake, and into the combustion chambers. That is spontaneous or natural induction. However, when outside forced are used that change the result, and cause more air (including oxygen) (and fuel for that matter) to be delivered, the induction is no longer spontaneous or natural, the induction is artificial. And according to Webster's definition of artificial, that induction could be considered forced. Why forced, because there was an outside influence on the induction system that caused the amount of air entering the combustion chamber to grow in an artifical way.

CONCLUSION:

So, if you are looking for a short answer, yes, nitrous is nitrous. If you are looking for a little more, nitrous is more similar to other forms of forced induction that it is to natural aspiration. As such, between the two categories, it can be, and is by me, considered to be a type of forced induction. If you are using three categories, n/a, nitrous, and forced induction, then obviously, nitrous is nitrous.

If you still are skeptical of whether nitrous is more akin to forced induction than natural aspiration, look at some of the racing organizations that separate cars based on whether they are n/a for have forced induction. You will see that the nitrous cars run in the same classes as the blower/turbo guys. To do otherwise would be ludicrous and a lot of the n/a guys would be at a severe disadvantage.

Pipes

SilverStateZ06,

Stop pushing my buttons :mad

I was trying to find out what the general concensus on this matter is, not redefine terms.

YOU are the only one posting that has taken the position that Nitrous is a form of forced induction. YOU have some good points, which I have mentioned.

The general concensus is that Nitrous is NOT forced induction, now get off my back! :smash:

Allgonoshow

OK, my 2 cents, which means nothing, but this is how I see it. It boils down to are you forcing air into the motor yes/no ? Lowering vacum levels or creating positive pressure I think would then mean Forced Induction. When you spray N20, are you forcing it into the motor or are you meary dispensing it into the path of airflow eithor in the airbox or rite at the back of the valves. You are still using engine vacum to suck it in. You are not creating 2 or 40 psi of manifold pressure. I'm not shure about the rules on running N20 with FI, but isn't that because it just ends up being a power adder class? And don't they mess around on handycaps with weight and CI's depending on what you run?

Oh well, so in short I say N20 does not equal FI. Maybe we need a new term like oxygen assisted?

SilverStateZ06

Pipes,

Don't get mad because I disagree with you. You can lead a horse to water, but...

I guess it would help to know what the context of the discussion was with your son. Then we could use our combined experience/knowledge to answer the ultimate question.

The consensus, notwithstanding my posts, has been that nitrous is not forced induction because it does not increase the pressure of the induction system. However, the other consensus is that motors on nitrous are not naturally aspirated. So it appears most of agree that nitrous is a form of artifical induction. Now whether you consider artificial induction to be forced depends on whether you think that added pressure is required. I don't think the pressure component makes a difference, others do. If you look at the results, my position makes more sense. If you look at the pressure, their position makes more sense. Again, it would help to know the context of your discussion with your son to answer the questions that you did not ask, but that are related to what you did ask.

Pipes

SilverStateZ06,

The context is pretty simple, "Is Nitrous considered 'Forced Induction'?".

BTW, is anyone else having difficulty understanding this question?

SilverStateZ06

Pipes,

Do you know what context means?

Not everything is black or white and everything does not fall into boxes or categories.

Have you ever heard people try to explain what stock is? Some say its stock if you haven't messed with the motor internals. Others say it is stock if you have no power adders, others say it is stock if all you did was programming or changing an air filter, others say it is stock if you haven't changed anything from the factory (inlcuding the tires), and yet others say something else.

So it's not about difficulty in understanding. It's about being able to give you a better answer based on the context (if you know what that means).


[Modified by SilverStateZ06, 10:30 AM 8/20/2003]