BlackZ06

And just as I said above ... the reason Chrysler had to issue the recall ????

The Bendix 10 ABS system utilizes a hydraulic pump that is erratic and results in reduced braking power assistance that causes a wide range of "unusual" responses under different braking conditions.

The Corvette hydraulic braking system continues to function normally even with a "bad" EBCM. NHTSA ain't gonna do a thing as ABS/TC/AH are not a feature REQUIRED to be on the car.

dougbfresh

When the module goes out, it just acts like the late 60's cars with big HP. What's the big deal???? Get the module repaired or replaced and get on w/ life!

ZeeOSix

Based on a few member's description of how the brakes worked very strangely when the ECBM was dead, makes me wonder if there might some kind of underlying effect on the braking system in some cases when the ECBM has faulted.

ZeeOSix

Here's another spin on this whole subject.

Just think how many Vette owners there are out there that never sign up to a chat board like this, and therefore would probably NEVER even know of an issue like the EBCM. So these Vette owners are just driving their cars every day not knowing that at any time the ECBM could fail and set a trouble code, thereby disabling AH/TC/ABS functions while driving. It maybe also true for any Vette owner that when the EBCM does set a failure code and pop the messages up on the DIC/dash, that the driver might not notice them right away or at all ... everyone has different levels of perception going on.

So my point is, there could be many instances where an EBCM fails during a drive, and the driver of the car may not even be aware at all what's really happened. This could potentially lead to the driver getting into a bad accident if the wrong situation occurs (some bonehead pulls right out in front of you, etc) while the EBCM is disabled.

If everyone knew exactly what those DIC messages meant, then they would have to immediately realize that all of the AH/TC/ABS is gone and be totally aware that if an emergency situation occurred they could be much more likely to lose control and end up in a crash.

ZeeOSix

I don't think there is enough known about this whole issue yet to make this statement. There have been claims by owners who lost control of their Vettes claiming the braking system acted dramatically and unpredictably when the EBCM was failed.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1724909

Bill Dearborn

Actually there is enough known about it. Some people refuse to see the light. So a person is driving along and has the ABS fail and then has somebody pull in front of him. They lock up the brakes and slide into the car or know how to drive and avoid it. If the ABS is working when presented with this situation the vast majority of drivers take their foot off the brake since they don't understand why the pedal feels like it does and why the car is vibrating like it is. In New York State the insurance companies are trying to remove discounts for ABS brakes since accidents are showing they provide no advantage for uninformed drivers who are pulling their foot off the brake instead of mashing it down.

As for the people who claim they have weird responses from the ABS, TC or AH and end up fighting the system you can depend on it that they are uninformed and really do not know what happened and are looking to blame something besides themselves. How many people on this forum use their ABS on a regular basis so they actually know what happens when it is activated? How many find an open stretch of road with no obstructions on the side take their car up to 60 and slam on the brakes when nobody is near just to see what happens?

Bill

Bill Dearborn

Talked to the Tech today. When he followed the test procedure he found the motor in the BPMV was shorted. This probably took down the EBCM since a short would have drawn excessive current through the relay that sets C1214. The procedure says to replace both modules when they find the pump motor shorted. The short also explains the wheel sensor codes that showed up since the sensors get their power in parallel with the pump. One other code which showed the pump motor moving slowly/stalled can also be explained by the short.

Bill

ZeeOSix

I think you mis-read my point. The point was that some people have claimed that their car's brakes acted strange when the EBCM was failed. I'm NOT talking about the responses of AH/TC/ABS when it's working like it should, and that's what you've eluded to above.

Read this post ... and you can see another separate instance mentioned in post #32. Here’s the link again. There might be more to this whole EBCM failure issue than what some people think. To me it's not black and white, and there could be a failure mode that makes the brakes act strange when the EBCM has problems.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1724909

I don’t know about anyone else here, but I can positively say the AH/TC/ABS systems have saved me more than once while driving this car hard. The last thing I’d want is for the fickin’ EBCM to go out while driving and then have a situation occur where I would have a better chance get out of with these systems then without them.

Bill Dearborn

I had read that post before and my observations apply equally to non-working and working ABS/TC/AH comments. The system shuts down if there is any failure in any of the parts. Yes, a brake will lock up if the ABS is not working. Yes, that brake could potentially yaw the car or do some other thing, so what. The brakes still work.

As for the guy who said somebody else said the right rear brake locked up while driving down the road and caused him to swerve into a ditch. AH doesn't lock up the brake it applies the brake and influences the yaw rate of the car. A driver can still steer the car where he/she wants to steer it.

These kinds of statements are the same type as all of the old farts made about Audi's unexplained acceleration 20 years ago. As it turned out they all had their foot on the gas and not on the brake and everybody else ended up with a brake pedal gear shift interlock on automatic transmission cars that keeps the inable from putting the car in gear unless their foot is on the brake.

Bill

ZeeOSix

Well, those guys experienced it first hand ... and as such, I would have to believe that maybe something unexplained might have happened in their cases. At this point, I'm not one to say that all EBCMs that fail would have no ill effects or unexpected influence on the braking system. IMO, there’s not enough data to conclude that just yet. In “theory” it might be the case, but sometimes theory and reality don’t always coincide. Just like with the column lock issue, with time you will see more and more instances of what these other guys are reporting.

There are people who will claim up and down until they are blue in the face that the steering lock mechanism can’t lock up while you’re driving, but if you search the records deep enough there were many cases filed where it supposedly happened.

BlackZ06

The only "unexplained" part of these two stories is why idiots like that are driving a Corvette. Post #1 in

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1724909

says ..... The DIC had intermittently shown "Service ABS", "Service Traction Contol", "Service Active Handling" sequentially for a month, then all was normal, then showed the same warnings for weeks at a time, and then nothing for weeks at a time.

Post #32 says ... He also had the DIC messages, but there's nothing suggesting the severity of the problem...

What part of the message SERVICE xxxxxxx did these morons not understand ?????? The car is telling them it has a problem and they choose to continue to drive it .... then an emergency occurs and these same idiots want to blame GM/the car/black helicopters/the EBCM (whatever...) for their lack of a brain ???

As Bill Dearborn points out in an earlier post ... these people claiming the EBCM "caused" their problem are the same mentality as the ones who claimed their Audi/Ford/whatever suffered from "unintended" acceleration. It took years before that urban legend finally got "busted" .... and at the expense (IIRC) of a number of careers on a certain "investigative journalism" show after it came out that they had rigged the vehicle to demonstrate the "problem" (Much like another show had rigged a vehicle to demonstrate "flaming fuel tanks").

If you look at the Service Manual for the car, and understand how the EBCM works, you will come to two conclusions ....

1) In the event of a problem, normally the EBCM shuts down and takes itself out of the braking system. This leaves you with a "regular" hydraulic braking system ... still power brakes .... but no ABS/TC/AH.

2) In a "worst case" scenario, should the EBCM make a "bad" decision (I'm driving straight down the freeway and because of bad data from a suddenly failing steering wheel position sensor the EBCM decides to invoke AH) it will cause the car to "pull" in a certain direction. It will not "lock" a wheel up .... but it may under unusual circumstances possibly intervene when not expected.

I'll take the added safety of the ABS/AH/TC provided 99.9999 percent of the time in return for the highly unlikely chance that the EBCM will intervene when I don't expect it too. If my car says "SERVICE xxxxx", I get it serviced ... and if I don't ... that is MY bad.

Kamil

Ok guys I did not start this thread so that a difference in opinion on this issue will cause a huge argument. Everyone can think what they want to think, The thread was to ask why there is not a recall on this part since so many of us seem to have a problem with it. The answer is this: some of us think it is a saftey issue while others dont. I think that those of us who think it is a saftey issue and that think that GM should replace the part I think we should all do something about it. Question is what?

Area51

Go to the website: www.absfixer.com. They charge $158 delivered. All the info you need is there. You can do remove the ECBM yourself. Open the hood, it is near the drivers headlight. It is attached to the brake unit. Many brake lines attched to it. It is held on by 6 screws. If you need help PM me. I can talk you through it by phone.

ZeeOSix

I think you're missing the point. You think these crashes were caused by someone who couldn't drive a car without the AH/TC/ABS working. That's a pretty biased and egotistical conclusion on your part. These guys might be able to drive better than most of us here.

The real point is, it just may be that there is some ill effects on the braking system when the EBCM fails in a certain way - I don't think there is enough information on this whole issue yet. If that is really the case, then I don't care how good of a driver you are ... if the braking system does something totally unexpected of a plain old braking system without AH/TC/ABS working, then anyone could be in for a big "surprise".

BlackZ06

I'm basing my opinion on their own words ..... anyone STUPID enough to drive for MONTHS (read the quotes) in a vehicle that is telling them to service the EBCM, AND they don't do it, does not deserve my respect.

Grab todays issue of the Wall Street Journal (Friday, June 15th) and turn to the "Weekend" section. There is a long article about how many "exotic" cars have been wrecked by drivers that are clueless as to how to handle a "performance" vehicle ... to quote from the article ...

"In the past 18 months, drivers across the world have cracked up at least six rare $1 million Ferrari Enzos - only 400 of which were built. In March, a California man rammed his $300,000 Lamborghini Murcielago into five parked cars, while in England, a 39-year-old driver caused an international stir among car enthusiasts by crashing a Bugatti Veyron - an extremely rare $1.5 million turbo-charged missle with a top speed of 253 miles per hour."

There are too many fools out there who want to blame anyone/anything but their own stupidity when they crash their car. When you can show me a documented case (police report - failure analysis expert) of an EBCM causing a crash, then I'll believe it. Until then, I'll be "pretty biased and egotistical" and believe that the nut behind the wheel was the failing part that caused the crash.

NocarbutaVetteforme

So to all of the naysayers that don't believe it is a problem with a faulty part and also is a safety issue and that it is the owners problem, are you willing to sign a release and say that you want no part of a recall if said recall is issued? Well we know that wouldn't matter since the recall would cover everyone. Or are these same naysayers going to be the first in line after the other concerned vehicle owners do all of the legwork? From a legal standpoint it is most definitely a legal problem. Does the NHTSA think it is a safety issue to lose your ABS/TCS? Absolutely they do. Can I drive my car without the ABS? Absolutely I can. I prefer to drive my cars at the track without any of the nanny things. In fact I quite regularly track my cars. The issue isn't about whether or not the individual/individuals have had an accident due to a problem with the EBCM but the fact that that there is the potential for an accident due to the loss of your ABS/TCS.

In fact they dedicate a whole page to the topic of ABS.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site...ype=standard#3

You may file a complaint at the following web address as well. All it takes to get the ball rolling is some people willing to put in the effort.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

When GM was contacted from us they did indeed tell us there was a known problem with the EBCM and that they would handle the replacement of the EBCM on a case by case basis. This is total BS. What they are really trying to get across is that they will pay if they are made to pay and otherwise you are SOL.

ZeeOSix

Well, isn't that ironic. There are other guys here who think they are such good drivers that they insist they don't need AH/TC/ABS at all. So what if one of those guys drove for months without the EBCM working? Would you not give them respect either?

Besides, all these same guys claim that the brake system "works just fine" without AH/TC/ABS working ... so from that logic they're saying it really shouldn't matter if it's working or not. Here a few quotes pertaining to this thought ... hummm.

BTW - your opionion doesn't mean those statements in red are actually true ... they are just your thoughts, and could very well be way off base since not enough data is know about what every failure mode the EBCM could possibly experience might have as a resulting effect on the braking system. Instead, you automatically assume the guys couldn't drive and crash from lack of driving skill.

Sure, if the DIC is giving warnings then it should be looked into ... but then on the other side of the coin you have other clown claiming that the car should brake and handle just fine without it working. So WTH is it? ... hummm.

BlackZ06

I will let my previous arguements speak for themselves.

* The failure of the EBCM does not cause accidents

* NHTSA does not REQUIRE ABS/TC/AH, so the loss of those systems will not generate a recall.

* The EBCM adds a higher level of safety to the car by providing ABS/AH/TC. The failure of the EBCM is indicated by warning lights and messages. GET IT FIXED.

The only thing I'm trying to point out is you're wasting your time if you think NHTSA is gonna get involved in this UNLESS you can show any one of the following ...

* That a failure of the EBCM CAUSES an accident

* The failure of the EBCM degrades the "standard" hydraulic braking system.

So far, no one has evidence of either case.

BlackZ06

I would not respect them if they then "blame" the EBCM for their crash.

ZeeOSix

At this point I don't think anyone can make a firm statement about that. Instances where drivers have claimed that the braking system went crazy when the EBCM was dead need to be investigated before automatically assuming (like you and a few other have) that the driver was the cause.

Obviously, if someone has a failed EBCM they should get it fixed ASAP – either via the ABSfixer or twist GMs arm to make them pay somehow (goodwill warranty). People can't wait for GM to step up on this one until more incidents occur that makes GM (and NHTSA, etc) dig deeper into this issue ... just like the column lock fiasco. All anyone could hope for is maybe a reimbursement for money you paid out to have the EBCM fixed if GM does have some kind of recall.

Well, if you'd listen there have been a few members who think it did cause the braking system to act strange. Yet, you just chalk it up to driver error. Maybe GM thinks the same way. Time will have to bring out the truth on this one .... just like it did with the column lock.