Muth Signal Mirrors & Mirror Motor Packs
12-15-2007, 01:01 AM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Muth Signal Mirrors & Mirror Motor Packs
This post is a result of a previous thread I started on this issue. I am between a rock and a hard place right now.
I have had Muth Signal Mirrors (http://www.kwmuth.com/products/kits/220-0190.htm) installed in my side view mirror housings for nearly 3 years. I developed a memory setting issue about a year or so ago to the best of my recollection. When I would exit the car with the car still running for instance and re-entered the vehicle and closed the driver's door, both mirrors would rotate to wonky positions and the A/C would sometimes change settings as well. Lot of other memory related wierdness as well.
Anyway, yesterday the dealership ran diagnostics and said that both mirror motor packs needed to be replaced. As soon as they attempted to replace the right Muth mirror glass, they claimed that the Muth mirror bracket was not fully engaging the secondary pegs (see photos) and that there was not a way to get them to fully engage without breaking the mirror (which they did when attempting reinstallation). Therefore, I had them put both my stock mirrors back in and now everything works. So I cannot argue with their evaluation.
I had a LONG discussion with Muth Mirrors today and they were very interested in helping with this issue, but they said they have installed these in hundreds of C5s and never heard of their mirrors affecting the vehicle memory settings. The two pegs I have circled in my second photo show the ones the dealership claims is where my problem is. The dealership say these two pegs (which apparently just move in and out when pulled or pushed on, but do not come out of the assy) are the root of my problem and that these two pegs give critical memory feedback to the entire memory system and if they are not fully engaged then I will have problems.
Muth says that as far as they know these two pegs have nothing to do with memory settings and are merely used to keep the mirror stabilized from vibration. So who do I believe?
My three questions are:
(1) Does anybody have an in-depth understanding of how these motor paks really work? It seems to me that if someone broke a mirror and it was completely missing, that still should not mess up the seat, steering wheel, A/C settings, etc.?
(2) Are the two pegs circled actually "Position sensors"?
(3) Has anyone successfully installed the Muth Mirrors? - if so, I have some questions for you.
I have had Muth Signal Mirrors (http://www.kwmuth.com/products/kits/220-0190.htm) installed in my side view mirror housings for nearly 3 years. I developed a memory setting issue about a year or so ago to the best of my recollection. When I would exit the car with the car still running for instance and re-entered the vehicle and closed the driver's door, both mirrors would rotate to wonky positions and the A/C would sometimes change settings as well. Lot of other memory related wierdness as well.
Anyway, yesterday the dealership ran diagnostics and said that both mirror motor packs needed to be replaced. As soon as they attempted to replace the right Muth mirror glass, they claimed that the Muth mirror bracket was not fully engaging the secondary pegs (see photos) and that there was not a way to get them to fully engage without breaking the mirror (which they did when attempting reinstallation). Therefore, I had them put both my stock mirrors back in and now everything works. So I cannot argue with their evaluation.
I had a LONG discussion with Muth Mirrors today and they were very interested in helping with this issue, but they said they have installed these in hundreds of C5s and never heard of their mirrors affecting the vehicle memory settings. The two pegs I have circled in my second photo show the ones the dealership claims is where my problem is. The dealership say these two pegs (which apparently just move in and out when pulled or pushed on, but do not come out of the assy) are the root of my problem and that these two pegs give critical memory feedback to the entire memory system and if they are not fully engaged then I will have problems.
Muth says that as far as they know these two pegs have nothing to do with memory settings and are merely used to keep the mirror stabilized from vibration. So who do I believe?
My three questions are:
(1) Does anybody have an in-depth understanding of how these motor paks really work? It seems to me that if someone broke a mirror and it was completely missing, that still should not mess up the seat, steering wheel, A/C settings, etc.?
(2) Are the two pegs circled actually "Position sensors"?
(3) Has anyone successfully installed the Muth Mirrors? - if so, I have some questions for you.
Last edited by Choreo; 12-15-2007 at 01:14 AM.
12-15-2007, 02:18 AM
#2
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12-15-2007, 03:46 AM
#3
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Great. Here are my first questions:
(1) Did you install them yourself?
(2) When you adjust the mirrors (using the door panel switches) do they travel from full left to full right and full up to full down by just holding the appropriate button switch down? What I am trying to find out here is do the mirrors ever STALL when moving through the full range requiring you to lift up and press the same direction button again to get the full range completed. This is a problem I am having with the Muth Mirrors about half the time and never with the stock mirrors.
(3) When you reach the end of the mirror's travel in any of the four main directions, does the mirror just quietly stop or does it CLICK one to three times before stopping?
Thanks for any help in diagnosing my problem!
(1) Did you install them yourself?
(2) When you adjust the mirrors (using the door panel switches) do they travel from full left to full right and full up to full down by just holding the appropriate button switch down? What I am trying to find out here is do the mirrors ever STALL when moving through the full range requiring you to lift up and press the same direction button again to get the full range completed. This is a problem I am having with the Muth Mirrors about half the time and never with the stock mirrors.
(3) When you reach the end of the mirror's travel in any of the four main directions, does the mirror just quietly stop or does it CLICK one to three times before stopping?
Thanks for any help in diagnosing my problem!
12-15-2007, 06:05 AM
#4
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Great. Here are my first questions:
(1) Did you install them yourself?
(2) When you adjust the mirrors (using the door panel switches) do they travel from full left to full right and full up to full down by just holding the appropriate button switch down? What I am trying to find out here is do the mirrors ever STALL when moving through the full range requiring you to lift up and press the same direction button again to get the full range completed. This is a problem I am having with the Muth Mirrors about half the time and never with the stock mirrors.
(3) When you reach the end of the mirror's travel in any of the four main directions, does the mirror just quietly stop or does it CLICK one to three times before stopping?
Thanks for any help in diagnosing my problem!
(1) Did you install them yourself?
(2) When you adjust the mirrors (using the door panel switches) do they travel from full left to full right and full up to full down by just holding the appropriate button switch down? What I am trying to find out here is do the mirrors ever STALL when moving through the full range requiring you to lift up and press the same direction button again to get the full range completed. This is a problem I am having with the Muth Mirrors about half the time and never with the stock mirrors.
(3) When you reach the end of the mirror's travel in any of the four main directions, does the mirror just quietly stop or does it CLICK one to three times before stopping?
Thanks for any help in diagnosing my problem!
1. yes i installed them myself. you can read it here.
2 & 3 i will have to get back to you on that, but i don't recall having those issues. i'll check it out on the way home from work in the morning.
12-15-2007, 09:41 PM
#6
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well i tried my mirrors tonight and i don't have the stalling issues you mentioned.
i noticed that if you keep holding the button at the end of the mirror travel, the motor does not turn off and it will make a popping noise because it can't move any further.
it's like the motor wants to keep adjusting even though it's at the end of the adjustment limit. there is no popping, however, unless i hold down the button. (which you normally don't need to do)
i don't remember if my stock ones stopped at the end of the travel or not. if anyone can chime in to answer this, it would be good to know.
i noticed that if you keep holding the button at the end of the mirror travel, the motor does not turn off and it will make a popping noise because it can't move any further.
it's like the motor wants to keep adjusting even though it's at the end of the adjustment limit. there is no popping, however, unless i hold down the button. (which you normally don't need to do)
i don't remember if my stock ones stopped at the end of the travel or not. if anyone can chime in to answer this, it would be good to know.
Last edited by jdmvette; 12-15-2007 at 09:43 PM.
12-16-2007, 06:56 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
well i tried my mirrors tonight and i don't have the stalling issues you mentioned.
i noticed that if you keep holding the button at the end of the mirror travel, the motor does not turn off and it will make a popping noise because it can't move any further.
it's like the motor wants to keep adjusting even though it's at the end of the adjustment limit. there is no popping, however, unless i hold down the button. (which you normally don't need to do)
i don't remember if my stock ones stopped at the end of the travel or not. if anyone can chime in to answer this, it would be good to know.
i noticed that if you keep holding the button at the end of the mirror travel, the motor does not turn off and it will make a popping noise because it can't move any further.
it's like the motor wants to keep adjusting even though it's at the end of the adjustment limit. there is no popping, however, unless i hold down the button. (which you normally don't need to do)
i don't remember if my stock ones stopped at the end of the travel or not. if anyone can chime in to answer this, it would be good to know.
12-17-2007, 12:06 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
I am closing in on the issue (I think), but need the input from an expert on how the mirror motor packs themselves actually work.
In the attached photo, the main spindle (green) is the main pivot attachment for attaching the mirror I believe. The motor drive pins (circled in yellow) move the mirror up/down, left/right. So far so good.
My question involves the pegs circled in red and the notches circled in orange:
(1) What is the function of the pegs circled in red? I can move them in and out freely with the mirror removed and they appear to do nothing more than just stabilize the mirror and perhaps reduce vibration, but the real question is "Do these two pegs have any bearing upon memory settings? My dealership says "Yes", but I don't see it. Muth mirror says "No". Who is right?
(2) When I move my mirror to the far left or right I can see behind my mirror and it appears that these do not actually clip into the mirror glass, but merely assist in guiding the mirrors as they rotate. Is that correct or should these be locked on to the mirror itself at all times?
In the attached photo, the main spindle (green) is the main pivot attachment for attaching the mirror I believe. The motor drive pins (circled in yellow) move the mirror up/down, left/right. So far so good.
My question involves the pegs circled in red and the notches circled in orange:
(1) What is the function of the pegs circled in red? I can move them in and out freely with the mirror removed and they appear to do nothing more than just stabilize the mirror and perhaps reduce vibration, but the real question is "Do these two pegs have any bearing upon memory settings? My dealership says "Yes", but I don't see it. Muth mirror says "No". Who is right?
(2) When I move my mirror to the far left or right I can see behind my mirror and it appears that these do not actually clip into the mirror glass, but merely assist in guiding the mirrors as they rotate. Is that correct or should these be locked on to the mirror itself at all times?
Last edited by Choreo; 12-17-2007 at 12:09 AM.
12-17-2007, 02:15 AM
#9
Race Director
Want to sse the outcome of this as I have a set of these mirrors (muth) to install once the car gets the bodya nd paint work finished up.
12-17-2007, 01:50 PM
#10
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
This is a more in-depth description from an email I just sent to Muth explaining the entire situation (waiting for reply):
No, the alignment problem (if it even exists) is not the fault of the dealership. I installed the Muth Mirrors myself almost three years ago as I recall and I thought everything went smooth, but I rarely had to readjust my mirrors. Unless I am losing my mind, about a year or so ago my mirrors started readjusting themselves whenever I would get out of the car with it running and then get back in and close the door (but they may have done this from the beginning and I never noticed or tied the two problems together). They did not always readjust, but did about 95% of the time and in different directions and sometimes just one mirror. Also the A/C would readjust - so I guessed it was a memory problem - not a mirror problem. I could always manually reset the mirrors once I was in the car and they would stay fixed until I used the key fob, etc. I put off going to the dealership until I had other problems as this mirror problem was just a minor nuisance (until I nearly ran someone off the road thinking the mirrors were correct when they weren't).
So, when I took the car in to get the Transmission, Steering, etc. repaired under warranty, I had them check the mirror problem. They ran a diagnostic and said I was not getting correct mirror position feedback from the mirror modules and the mechanic said that without the proper feedback this would affect the entire memory system as the Door Control Modules look for that info? He decided that both Motor packs in the mirrors were bad which to me sounded coincidental, but what do I know? He started by removing the right Muth Mirror and replacing the motor pack. He then tried to reinstall the right Muth mirror by flexing the outer edge (which he said is standard procedure on the stock mirrors to get all the pegs to align?) and of course the mirror broke as glass does not flex. He said he just could not get the pegs to engage properly on the Muth Mirror?
He then was faced with the ordeal of removing and replacing the left mirror and he said that the Muth mirrors were probably the cause the entire problem to begin with and that he figured the same thing would happen on the left side if he tried to reinstall it properly. He said "You probably have noticed that when you try to adjust the mirrors that they only move slightly and you have to let up on the switch and press down again to get them to move further", I said "Yes". He said "You probably also noticed that when you press a memory button (either 1 or 2), the memory light just blinks for about a minute indicating a fault", I said "Yes". He said this is because the Muth Mirrors are not locking into the pegs and giving the proper feedback. He said "The mirrors are suppose to move smoothly and continuously by holding down the switch once through the full range in each direction".
He removed the Drivers side Muth mirror and replaced the motor pack as well. Their only solution was to reinstall the factory mirrors (which I kept on hand). They reinstalled my factory mirrors, reset some memory settings as I understand and everything worked perfect when I picked up the car (sans Muth Mirrors).
When I got home I called Muth Tech Support and they had never heard of this issue and said they had many of these installed successfully on C5s - but had never heard of a memory interference problem. I then removed the factory mirror from the Driver's Side after taking to Muth and everything appeared to go fine, the mirror now moved smoothly in both directions by holding down the button and the car held its other memory setting upon exit and re-entry. Then Friday night I noticed that the mirror would again stop while holding down the switch on a couple occasions - like the problem may be coming back!!! I got a flashlight behind the mirror and I could see all four of the pegs as well as the center spindle engaged - so I don't think that is is problem in and of itself. So at this point I am at a loss?
I have not been able to locate ANY information on how these motor packs actually work and if the non motorized pegs actually generate memory feedback? Still researching..
Another Question for Muth Tech Support (see attached photo)...
After looking behind the driver's mirror Friday night I could see that the yellow and red pegs were all engaged. I cannot tell if the green spindle is "fully" engaged, but I know for sure that the guides circled in orange are not LOCKED on to the mirror as I can see the corresponding pegs on the mirror move in and out of these guides (if that is what they are) when I rotate the mirror through its range.
Is this correct? Should the guides circled in orange not grab on to the mirror?
No, the alignment problem (if it even exists) is not the fault of the dealership. I installed the Muth Mirrors myself almost three years ago as I recall and I thought everything went smooth, but I rarely had to readjust my mirrors. Unless I am losing my mind, about a year or so ago my mirrors started readjusting themselves whenever I would get out of the car with it running and then get back in and close the door (but they may have done this from the beginning and I never noticed or tied the two problems together). They did not always readjust, but did about 95% of the time and in different directions and sometimes just one mirror. Also the A/C would readjust - so I guessed it was a memory problem - not a mirror problem. I could always manually reset the mirrors once I was in the car and they would stay fixed until I used the key fob, etc. I put off going to the dealership until I had other problems as this mirror problem was just a minor nuisance (until I nearly ran someone off the road thinking the mirrors were correct when they weren't).
So, when I took the car in to get the Transmission, Steering, etc. repaired under warranty, I had them check the mirror problem. They ran a diagnostic and said I was not getting correct mirror position feedback from the mirror modules and the mechanic said that without the proper feedback this would affect the entire memory system as the Door Control Modules look for that info? He decided that both Motor packs in the mirrors were bad which to me sounded coincidental, but what do I know? He started by removing the right Muth Mirror and replacing the motor pack. He then tried to reinstall the right Muth mirror by flexing the outer edge (which he said is standard procedure on the stock mirrors to get all the pegs to align?) and of course the mirror broke as glass does not flex. He said he just could not get the pegs to engage properly on the Muth Mirror?
He then was faced with the ordeal of removing and replacing the left mirror and he said that the Muth mirrors were probably the cause the entire problem to begin with and that he figured the same thing would happen on the left side if he tried to reinstall it properly. He said "You probably have noticed that when you try to adjust the mirrors that they only move slightly and you have to let up on the switch and press down again to get them to move further", I said "Yes". He said "You probably also noticed that when you press a memory button (either 1 or 2), the memory light just blinks for about a minute indicating a fault", I said "Yes". He said this is because the Muth Mirrors are not locking into the pegs and giving the proper feedback. He said "The mirrors are suppose to move smoothly and continuously by holding down the switch once through the full range in each direction".
He removed the Drivers side Muth mirror and replaced the motor pack as well. Their only solution was to reinstall the factory mirrors (which I kept on hand). They reinstalled my factory mirrors, reset some memory settings as I understand and everything worked perfect when I picked up the car (sans Muth Mirrors).
When I got home I called Muth Tech Support and they had never heard of this issue and said they had many of these installed successfully on C5s - but had never heard of a memory interference problem. I then removed the factory mirror from the Driver's Side after taking to Muth and everything appeared to go fine, the mirror now moved smoothly in both directions by holding down the button and the car held its other memory setting upon exit and re-entry. Then Friday night I noticed that the mirror would again stop while holding down the switch on a couple occasions - like the problem may be coming back!!! I got a flashlight behind the mirror and I could see all four of the pegs as well as the center spindle engaged - so I don't think that is is problem in and of itself. So at this point I am at a loss?
I have not been able to locate ANY information on how these motor packs actually work and if the non motorized pegs actually generate memory feedback? Still researching..
Another Question for Muth Tech Support (see attached photo)...
After looking behind the driver's mirror Friday night I could see that the yellow and red pegs were all engaged. I cannot tell if the green spindle is "fully" engaged, but I know for sure that the guides circled in orange are not LOCKED on to the mirror as I can see the corresponding pegs on the mirror move in and out of these guides (if that is what they are) when I rotate the mirror through its range.
Is this correct? Should the guides circled in orange not grab on to the mirror?
12-17-2007, 08:04 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Initial Response from Muth...
"The two orange features are for anti-rotation. The mirror won't "lock" into them, so in certain positions, they will be out of the feature, but one should always be inside one of the features. The mirror is held on by the center socket (green ring). If that isn't fully engaged, then it's possible for the mirror to fly off."
"The two orange features are for anti-rotation. The mirror won't "lock" into them, so in certain positions, they will be out of the feature, but one should always be inside one of the features. The mirror is held on by the center socket (green ring). If that isn't fully engaged, then it's possible for the mirror to fly off."
