yellohvette

Hey Guys/Gals,

I'll just give the cliff notes of the SWPS install: it's a royal pain in the a$$. Now that i've covered that, here's where things stand...

Replaced the sensor and now the car won't start. I followed the instructions i found on this site that said to remove fuse 16 (air bag) as well as fuses 23 and 25. These are the BCM1, BCM2, and IPC fuses in the passenger footwell fuse box. NOW the starter is not making any clicking noise. Turn the key to crank/start and completely silent! I can hear the clicking sound coming from the passenger footwell fuse box area when the key is first inserted and put to the on position (not cranking position). I think it's the computer(s) initializing, or something along those lines (read: this is normal). There are NO codes in the DIC.

Anyone have any ideas what's going on? The car worked on sunday, as i had taken it out for a drive that day. I tried jump starting the car, I just bought a new battery and that didn't help. It's like the starter is bad, but i 99.99% refuse to believe that's the case, considering it was working fine until i started digging around under the dash.

I THOUGHT that maybe i had reset the security parameters by pulling fuses 23 and/or 25. I looked into resetting the VATS (http://www.c5help.com/c5_no_start.htm) but on step 3 (part 2) the security light goes out within 3 seconds (not 10 minutes). So i'm thinking that ISN'T the problem.

By pulling those fuses, have i pissed something else off?!

Hell, i'd offer 10 bucks via paypal to someone that can help figure this out...i might get desperate and offer 25 by tomorrow morning lol...

Thanks!

- Jeff

dgrant3830

First thought is that you forgot to connect something in the steering column wiring....one of the connectors. The security light is going out as it should and there are no codes. I didn't look at the time Im typing this, but does your car have a MM6 transmission? If so, you might wish to look at the clutch switch on the pedal.

Bill Curlee

10 bucks ,,,,25 bucks ,,, 100 bucks . 200 bucks

Ha,,you don't need any stinking money!

The clicking in the passengers foot well is most likely the Theft Deterrent Relay making contact when you press the clutch. (You have an MN6,,,right????)

The theft deterrent relay passes 12 VDC to the starter solenoid.

If you hear the TDR click, the BCM is allowing the theft deterrent circuit to energize the relay. The relay should pass 12 VDC to the starter solenoid and allow the starter to crank the engine. You can remove the relay and jump the red wire to the purple wire. ( NOTE/CAUTION! Make sure car in out of gear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When you do that the starter should crank the engine! If the key is in the ON position,,,the engine should run.

If it doesn't,,,whack the starter with a hammer and then try to start the engine.

BC

chpmnsws6

And if hitting the starter works, then replace the starter!

yellohvette

^^^ that's what i thought too. had everything put back together and then had to tear it all down to inspect. i couldn't find any plugs undone - go figure! I tried jumping the wires that connect to the clutch switch (the white plastic piece) - no luck. There is a 2nd switch (black plastic) that looks like it is contacted when the clutch is pressed in ALL the way - should i try jumping that as well? Not sure what that is!

^^^ WOW, Bill Curlee posting in my thread - i've read A LOT of threads in which you've helped out other members. i've always been amazed at your knowledge of the corvette (especially the electronics). I'll give your idea a try - HOW do i jump those wires? Do i need to get the fuse box unbolted to see these two wires (i assume there are at least 3 connectors for this relay)?

^^^ I've had to do this on my OLD Buick LeSabre - i was dumbfounded when the tow truck driver whacked it with a hammer and she started right up! I'll try this as well (per Bill's recommendation) and see how it goes.

Thanks!!!! Crossing fingers - and toes - and eyes - you get the idea!

- Jeff

yellohvette

Bill - you said: "The clicking in the passengers foot well is most likely the Theft Deterrent Relay making contact when you press the clutch."

I do not hear a click when pushing in the clutch. The only noise I hear is when i first turn the key to start the car. There is ONE click from the fuse box (passenger footwell) and then nothing. I tried pushing the clutch in and out and never heard any clicks.

Should i be looking at the white plastic switch at the top of the clutch pedal or should i be looking at that black plastic switch at the base of the clutch pedal (against the firewall)?

BlackZ06

I'll jump in until Bill is back .... you should look at the switch that is the black one that the base of the clutch pedal contacts.

To remove the switch ... the Service Manual lists the following ....

1) Disconnect NEG battery cable
2) Remove the clutch pedal position switch (clutch start switch) electrical connector
3) Insert a feeler gauge between the switch and the clutch pedal bracket to release the switch tab
4) Remove the switch. Lift the switch slightly then pull to remove.

BLOWNBLUEZ06

You can also get out a Volt/Ohm meter and measure the voltage coming out of the ignition switch. I know old GM color codes, so hopefully they haven't changed on the Vettes. You should have a Pink wire that is hot while in the start position as well is ignition on position. A yellow or purple wire that is hot while in the start position only. The yellow or purple wire should be what goes to the starter solenoid after passing through the relay that Bill mentioned. Make sure you have these voltages coming out of your ignition switch. Also, you can use the ohm meter portion to verify that your clutch switch is engaging and dis-engaging or monitor the voltage in and out of that switch as well. To bypass the relay, you can remove it and buy some 12 gauge wire and crimp some blue or yellow spade connectors to each end. You can monitor the voltage coming in to the relay. If you pull it, it should have numbered pins. If this relay operates "normally open", your voltage will come in on pin 87 or 30 and go out on the other. Use the jumper to connnect 87 to 30. If it operates normally closed, then you will connect pins 87a to 30. How the relay operates depends on if the TDS makes the connection (normally open) or breaks the connection (normally closed). When you turn the key, do you hear your fuel pump run for a second? Do you have a second key to try?

yellohvette

Hmm, ok - here's an update! Many thanks to all the members that have posted so far. I went ahead and jumped the purple and red wires on the TDR relay. The starter began to turn the engine as soon as i reconnected the + terminal on the battery! The car didn't start though (i'm assuming this is because i didn't have the key in the ignition at the time?!).

I then tested the opposite two wires on that relay (Yellow: +12v from ignition switch during starting. Yellow/black stripe: Ground signal supplied by BCM). I got NO voltage readings during cranking!

I then connected the voltmeter to the Yellow/black striped wire (bcm ground) and then connected the other end of the voltmeter to the + cig lighter wire. I got 5V during cranking (cig lighter is a 5v line). So this tells me the bcm is sending the ground signal when i turn the key to start.

I then connected the voltmeter to the Yellow wire (+12v from ignition). I got 60mv during cranking (still no starter activity, however). So this may be the issue. I am going to try "BLOWNBLUEZ06's" method to test the ignition switch...but can anyone else verify these are the correct colors?

Any other thoughts? Thanks!!!!!!!

I still don't understand how any of this happened from just replacing the swps... = Nutz!

FRCTony

Any codes?

yellohvette

Just B0338 (Inside Air Temperature Sensor Open ) because i have the sensor disconnected right now.

Probably not an issue, BUT...my fuel level is VERY low - to the point where when i turn off the ignition, the needle doesn't move. These cars don't cut the starter if the car is out of fuel do they?!

yellohvette

tried BLOWNBLUEZ06's suggestion and they voltages checked out just fine - 11.8v on both wires. Is the voltage reduced to 60mv in between the ignition and the Theft Deterrant Relay (TDR)? I have considered running a 5v line to the yellow wire to see if that voltage triggers the relay and starts the car - but i don't want to blow up the relay if it is meant for 60 mv! hmmmm

FRCTony

No. I was thinking you may have the column lock out of sync, but that shouldn't prevent cranking either. Sure seems like a pass key issue.

BTW, did you move from Fairfax to Aldie this morning?

yellohvette

Yeah, my gut tells me that it is an ignition/security issue, but I can't figure it out for the life of me - very odd, isn't it?! Can you slightly elaborate on the "pass key issue" comment? Thanks!

LOL - wow, you picked up on the Aldie update! I moved out to Aldie in september of 2007 - just forgot to update my profile (along with updating my signature for the recent upgrades). Are you out in this area? Not many people have heard of Aldie.

FRCTony

The little connector with the two white??? wires is the sensing circut I believe. Wouldn't be hard to pull on them a little too hard. Can't hurt to double check that connection. Did you try another key?

Yeah I know Aldie. I've lived in the area for about 40 years.

yellohvette

tried disconnecting, reconnecting the connector that you mentioned - no good, just caused a DTC message, reset and it doesn't come back. I've tried my spare key too. I THINK the issue lies at the 12v line that is supposed to go to the yellow wire at the TDR relay. Anyone have any idea what wire starts on the driver side, goes behind the console and into the TDR relay?!

- Jeff

yellohvette

one other thing to note: i've read quite a few threads where people are saying they hear a click from the clutch relay when they press the clutch pedal in. I hear NO suck click. The only clicking i hear is when i first turn the key to the "On" position and when i turn the key to the cranking position. There is no click that i can associate with the clutch. Thoughts on that?

FRCTony

There is a yellow wire that goes from the clutch switch to the coil of the TDR relay. That wire is grounded thru the BCM.

I would go thru the fuse box very carefully and make sure they are ALL good.

Bill Curlee

There are TWO ingition fuses that you need to check. Here is a link to a post that has a schematic in it. Its the schematic for the ingition / start circuit. It has all the fuses relays and switches in it that you neeed to check:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1957909

Check out post#12. It has the schematic that your looking for.

The clutch safety switch is on the fire wall where the clutch peddel touches the fire wall.

BC

yellohvette

Tony - thanks for the clarication on the TDR wire! I followed it and everywhere i test the line i get approx 60-70mv so i'm guessing this is the normal voltage for this line to activate the TDR relay. I have checked every fuse 3 times (i'll check a 4th just to be 'sure')

BC - thanks for the link to that article. I had already book marked that sucker and had already looked at those fuses. I've PM'ed Y2kvert to see if he can chime in.

The latest step i've done is unplugging the TDR relay from the harness and then trying to crank the engine (obviously that won't help) - buuut, I STILL hear the same 'clicking' noises coming from that area even with the relay out of the loop. So obviously the clicking noise is something else. I get no clicking noise from that area when i press in the clutch (even with the relay plugged in). I'm leaning towards TDR relay at this point!