Aviator54

I've cleaned both keys and the codes have been reset. It doesn't happen all the time and the last several starts have been flawless so these codes depict the previous failed attempts. And as the service manual states, waiting three minutes resets the system and then it will usually start up after the first delay, though I didn't know about the time delay, but now that I do, I will be more patient with it. I would suspect the ignition switch as the defective unit but just wanted to get confirmation before I shell out money for something I didn't need. Thanks for your input.

SharkByte

I had quite literally the exact same problem with my '04 that I fixed yesterday. here's the link to my thread that told me how to rebuild my ignition module for free

takes about two hours if you are relatively handy at taking your car apart...


SharkByte's why won't my car start thread

Aviator54

An update on my situation: I pulled the ignition switch out, cleaned it just like BC said, bent the tabs down a little then decided while I have it apart to check the resistance the VATS reader in the ignition was picking up with the key inserted and it reads, consistantly, .302, which is what my pellets resistance is in both keys. So now I'm thinking it may be the TDR? I will pull that and see what I can find on that. Right now we're expecting a freeze and my garage isn't heated so I will wait till it gets warmer. Besides that, with my broken foot its hard to squeeze around the inside of my vette.

Bill Curlee

Lucky makes a good point. Remember, I stated that the clutch safety switch pump test only test the relay coil operation and tells you that the coil and circuits that allow the coil to energize are good.
Only the coil was tested in that test. Thats why I asked you to test the PURPLE wire for 12 VDC (battery voltage) when you attempt to start the engine. If you have 12 VDC on the purple wire, the TDR is most likely good.
IF,,the contacts in the realy are burnt, you could see LESS than 12 VDC or it may not be able to pass enough current to allow the solenoid coil to work properly. You could use your volt / ohm meter on the resistance scale and remove the TDR and read the resistance of the output contacts. The output contacts should be real close to ZERO Ohms.

A new TDR is only 12 bucks from Autozone.



BC

Aviator54

Thanks BC I'll give that a shot. You still in Guam? I spent a fair amount of time there while in the AF, lovely place, learned to scuba dive there.

ZeeOSix

Just to add to the discussion for those who don't full understand. If the car won't crank over and the Security light is on and DTCs set, then the problem is related to the PASS-Key system - bad key pellet or ignition switch not reading the key pellet. If the car will not crank and there is no Security light showing or DTCs set, then it's related to the TDR, starter solenoid, clutch switch, or possibly a bad ground in the starting system somewhere.

Bill Curlee

No,,, Guam was a temporary assignment. Been back and forth there several times. Its a nice change but, Ill take the GOOD OLE USA soil any day of the week!

OP

Any luck??

BC

sabastian458

This is very similar to the situation that I am currently in with my 02 Z06, been having the problem a week after purchase.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-s...ac-issues.html

I have done the ground cleaning, ignition switch cleaning, throttle body cleaning, checked all electrical connections and such.

Some times it will be fine, but it has been getting progressively worse as time has continued. Where as it would only happen 1 time every 7-10 days, now it happens almost every start up.

Watching this thread very closely now

Bill Curlee

Go to the hardware store, find a 1/2" wood dowl rod about 3' long. The next time it wont start, snake the rod down thru the passengers side thru the exhaust and thump the solenoid with the stick. If you really want to know if that solves the issue, have some one hold the ignition switch in the crank position and then thump the starter. I bet you it cranks right up after a good thump!

Just be careful and dont thump the plastic backalite end of the solenoid.



Ive seen NUMEROUS bad solenoids cause this very issue. The wires on the solenoid being loose or corroded can also cause he issue. here have been cases where he plasic insulaor burns up due loose wires and to arcing.

BC

sabastian458

I will do that next weekend. I had the car on jack stands a few weeks ago and looked at the wires on the starter and they "appeared" ok and tight. I did not do a starter draw test or anything of the sort.

squidnut

I have had the same problem on my 01. No start and the security light is flashing. Funny thing is I have no codes at all. I took a emory board to the key...BAD IDEA...it started every time after that for a couple months. Use the pencil eraser the emory board removes metal and will make the key useless if you are not careful. Still havent figured out exactly what it is..I think it is the key or the ignition switch.

ZeeOSix

That is strange, as the Security light coming on is supposed to be an indicator that the PASS-Key system has detected a problem and it should set the associated DTCs.

Aviator54

Another update on my problem: I cleaned the ignition switch real good, spit and polished the contacts so they were nice and shiny. I had two that showed signs of pitting, now they look brand new. I bent the tabs a little to give it more contact power. I then hooked up my digital vm and checked the ohms on the VATS reader in the lock cylinder as I inserted a key and it read 3.01 every time. I wiggled the key around but it was always consistant and read the right resistance. I did this about 30 times or so and it was good every time so I'm pretty sure the ignition switch/lock cylinder is good. I then put it back together and checked the voltage to/from the TDR and it was always "good". If I remember, the input from the RED wire was around 3-5 volts and when I cranked the engine, the PURPLE wire read about 10 or so volts. However I have started the beast about 40 times and every time it starts right up and my security light goes out each time with no codes. I'm thinking I need to get a big stick like Bill Curlee advised and carry it just in case I have to beat the beast into submission.....

lucky131969

Based on your measurements, I'm thinking your meter is flaky. IF you have a #1 key, the lowest resistance measured should be 386 ohms. Double check by measuring the key directly. Also, I'm not sure what red wire you measured voltage on, but the red wire to the TDR should be battery voltage(hot at all times), and when the TDR energizes, the purple wire should be battery voltage....as the contacts connect the red wire to the purple wire. If you only red 3-5 volts on the red wire, something is wrong.....probably with your meter setup.

sabastian458

I dunno about you, but I alway carry a big stick with me couldnt resist lol


Im thinking that if the tapping the starter trick doesnt work, I will use hptuners to delete the vats to remove it from the equation of confusion I currently have

Bill Curlee

I bet ya he has a #9 key!

Yes,, the red wire should be HOT at all times! Check the fuse and MAKE SURE that the fuse socket and fuse blades are not corroded/loose! That too is a common issue.

BC

ZeeOSix

Yep ... his DMM was probably reading 3.01 Kohms.

Since Aviator54 seems to have 100% repeatable starts with no Security light or DTCs (base on his info in post #55), then it could have been the work done on the key and ignition switch that gave it the cure. Only time will tell.

Aviator54

After a long work assignment, I'm finally back and was able to work on the car some more. After all I had done, cleaned the ignition switch, checked the resistance of the key (3.009) and what the ignition switch was sending to the TDR (3.016), buying a new TDR (just in case and it was only $15 at Autozone), I thought I had it fixed but the other day it left me stranded for half an hour so when I got home I rechecked everything, including the TDR voltages. (codes were P1631, B2721, & two U codes, dont remember which ones but they're just lost communication with XXX codes) The red wire read 11.95 volts (battery volts), when I turned the ignition switch to start the yellow wire read 11.95 volts, but when I checked the purple wire during the start sequence, it showed no volts so I thought the new TDR was bad so I put the old one back in and the same thing, no start voltage to the starter from the purple wire. I then bought another TDR and I got the same thing, no voltage from the purple wire. By that point I was pretty much dumbfounded. I then went ahead and jumped the red (bat volts) and the purple and the starter engaged, but with the ignition switch on, the car ran only for a couple seconds then shut down, I'm assuming due to lack of fuel.

I decided to do one more check, that of the clutch safety switch. I disconnected it and jumpered the two wires and the car started right up. I have started it about 20 times since then with no problems except sometimes the SECURITY light comes on and stays on, a couple times it came on after driving a few blocks and stayed on. I'll give it a few more days of driving and see if it starts acting up again but if it doesn't, looks like its just a sticky clutch safety switch. But I'd sure like to know why the security light does what it does. Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the security light? The wiring diagram I got from the forum on the starter electric system doesn't show it. Anyway, this sure is getting old and I miss driving the beast and my wife misses riding in it, lol.

As for the Ohm meter readings, I set my meter on 20K and get the X.XXX readings. I'm not sure what the correct resistance should be as I have seen several posts stating the ohms should be...ie 3.010 and other posts stating resistance is 3010 ohms. It would be nice to get a definative answer but until then, whatever my meter is set on, it reads the correct resistance. But at this point I'm going to assume the previous chart stating the resistance in hundreds and thousands to be the correct values.

BIGTACO

Well, it took a little time but my car finally did the "No-start" again. I read the voltage on the purple wire from the relay in question and it read 11.6 Volts. So this means that my starter solenoid or starter solenoid connections are going bad right?

Is the starter solenoid difficult to replace yourself?

Bill Curlee

WELL,,,,,,,,,, replacing the stater solenoid is just as involved as replacing the starter because you MUST remove the starter for BOTH jobs. The solenoid is only $50 or so, a new or rebuilt starter is a LOT more. For me, saving the cash it cost for the new starter replacement was well worth the time. I waited till I tore my engine down for my heads cam fast 90 install so I killed two birds with one stone. If you have headers, they have to come off.

There are THREE small screws that secure the solenoid to the starter. One of those screws is in a deep recess and you will have to purchase a 1/4" drive deep well socket just for that screw. Got mine from bumper to bumper for $3.00

So, you either lay out a lot of cash for a new starter or a little for a solenoid.

BC