K-Spaz

This car is a nightmare...

Had a leak issue with the A/C. Got it recharged ($182.xx w/dye installed), fixed the VFD display for the dual climate controls. Found a leak in the main hose (evap-comp-cond), bought that ($174.9x). Had that put on and recharged again, ($18x.xx). Threw codes for typical vent door actuator issues, bought a new vent door actuator and installed that today in the drivers side. What a hoot that is!

Everything is back together and now it throws B0441HC. It did show that today with an H, but after clearing the codes it was gone and didn't come back. Two codes did come back, B0361 I think, and another like 363. The same typical stuff everyone else here has with hvac. After the vent door motor replacement, B0441 is the only code it throws now. Blows hot air to beat the band now, and I am guessing my AC needs ANOTHER recharge now. I can't see another leak, but I don't have my blacklight here at home now, that's at work.

So, B0441, Left Actuator Out of Range. I replaced the motor with a new one that specifically said in the instructions not to plug in with power to it cause it'll get messed up. I didn't. As best I could see, there's only two ways to put the thing on the vent door shaft, correct and 180 out. So I put it on, and was expecting things to be all ready to go. I guess not. Can these be put on wrong?

At least it was cheap, <$40 at Advance Auto. Unlike some I've seen people talk about, this one does have tabs that unlock so you can open it. Some folks said new ones can't be opened, not so in this case.

Please tell me I don't need to do a calibrate on this thing by moving that gear inside as mentioned in a few threads here. This wasn't a fun afternoon as it was, pulling this out and replacing it.

Any help with this vent door is appreciated. Any insights that might help save a few bucks, or most logical next steps. I'm all ears. I want to stop throwing money at this things problems, but it just eats money by the bushels... For a car that was cared for like a first-born male child, this thing sure has a pile of stuff broke/break'n on it.

Bill Curlee

Well,,,,,,, The actuator new from the factory should have been set so the damper was in the center of the full throw position.

When you clear the DTCs you should hear the door actuators cycle full hot full cold and go to where the temp **** tells it to.

Do you hear it cycle or can you make it cycle.

Turn the HVAC head OFF. Clear the DTCs/ Listen for the cycle. If it doesnt cycle, turn the HVAC head ON.

I had to clear and cycle mine a 1/2 dozen or so times before it worksd.

Bill

K-Spaz

Thanks Bill,

I'll try that now. Honestly, I don't recall any noises when I first started things up today and I sorta was expecting to hear 'something'. Later I did remove the battery cable for a while to let the car reset everything, that didn't appear to help either and again, I didn't hear any noise. I just thought the motors were real quiet.. If there were any sounds, they were ...subtle...

I'll listen closer now.

Phil.

EDIT
Ok, I did as you said and yes I did hear it cycle both directions and stop. It sorta labored at the end of travel both directions, but I'm not gonna say it went to a neutral position when finished. I think I have the ac set to 60 so maybe it's in the right position when finished.

So anyway, yes it appears that is working now, but clearly out of range. I'm off to bed soon and will inspect the car for leaks tomorrow morning. I sure hope I don't end up with $500 in recharges on this thing... And, that wouldn't bother me so much if it was the only thing I had to fix so far. I'm bett'n on another expensive piece for the AC now, like a condenser...

And the thought of tearing that motor back out doesn't raise my spirits any either.

Bill Curlee

Well,,,,,,,, the actuators are quiet BUT,,,, if you turn OFF the radio and turn down the HVAC Fan,, you can hear it cycle.

LawdoG247

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there two types of actuators? One for manual controls (<$40) and one for dual climate controls (>$100)? It's possible that you purchased the wrong one...as much as I hope you didn't because I know you're frustrated enough with it already!

I'm going through this same issue right now, except I haven't had the time to pull the actuator out and examine it.

K-Spaz

Ohhhh my...

I remember looking at the new one and seeing 4 pins on 10,9,8 & 7 but two opens on 6 & 5. I never looked at the one I took out till I just read this. (insert long list of appropriate expletives here). I just figured, ok, 2 for motor input and two for feedback, (or even one if analog). The one I pulled uses 10,9,8,6 and 5. <=== EDIT here. I misspoke here from memory, it uses 10,9,7,6 and 5. 8 is open. Sorry.

Well, I wonder if I can swap gears in it cause the old one has just a broken gear. I guess I could just think positive till I see something else that stops this from working. I also have a really bad feeling I've got another leak in the A/C somewhere and at $300 or so a pop, those are gett'n old quick.

Thanks for the tip. No doubt about it, I have to go back in there.

K-Spaz

Just now looking with a blacklight, I see several areas with dye all over the place. After having just done a hose replacement several areas are expected, but I don't think this one is.

Anyone ever seen a leak on a compressor right at the body where the two halves come together?



That's about as good a pic as I can get. Focus ain't so great and depth of focus is about like a razor blade, but you can sorta see where the dye is. I can't imagine they dripped it there and it showed up like that. Other drips and puddles, ok, yea... Not here I'm thinking.

Oh, and does anyone else think that $160 for a purge/recharge is a bit exorbitant?

Bill Curlee

The Dual Zone actuator looks like this:



I do not have a Manual HVAC actuator picture.


LawdoG247

Very good recommendation!!

BC

LawdoG247

I try to help wherever I can, I'm still learning the nuances of these things as my car has been subject to nearly ALL of them!



As for the manual actuator, I've been browsing RockAuto.com and the pictures they have look nearly identical so that's gonna be a tough one. I believe it's safe to say that if you paid less than $40 for it than it's the manual one because I haven't seen any dual zone units for less than $90!

Try this:

-Visit: www.rockauto.com
-Click the center frame to open the catalog
-Click the "Part Number Search" tab
-Search for Part Number: 604106
-Add it to your shopping cart
-Use this code in the "How did you hear about us?" box: 103094278481032

That is a coupon for 5% off, netting you a new dual zone actuator for around $90 after shipping!

K-Spaz

Thanks guys,

Yes mine looks like the photo Bill posted,same pins and all. I got tied up here at work (with REAL work) and could not get back to the car or it would be apart by now. (Darn customers?... can't then tell I have car work to do?)

I'll take a pic of the manual one and post that to show the different pinouts.

Lawdawg, I'll keep that in mind if the gear swap doesn't look like it's gonna work. I did take mine apart and the gear is broken. If it needs only minor alterations, I can do that since I do have a machine shop. I'll see what it takes; soon.

Bill Curlee

If the gear is broken,, you can get the actuator to the mid position and EPOXY the Gear to the shaft and get it to work again. Thats an option.

K-Spaz

Ah, ok. Will JB-Weld Industro actually stick to that gear material? Looks like HDPE at a glance. I would not have considered that. Might be delrin, but I'd think it would not have broken if so.

It's approaching 100 degrees here and I do not have A/C in the garage area of the shop. Temp inside is only 82 but holy smokes is it humid. I just knew this AM when I began that I'd get tied up with work and end up doing this in the afternoon. Sure enough.

$$$frumnuttin'

It has to be acetal resin (Delrin). HDPE does not have the toughness that acetal has; and, acetal is used in all kinds of gear applications, even your turn signal actuators (which have to last forever) on the column. Wish I could help you on a proper adhesive, but can't remember that far back in my career. But, do a google search and you should get a recommendation.

K-Spaz

Ok, so I decided to cobble together the two actuators and make one good one. I know, I know. Nobody in their right mind would do this. And you're right.

So I began by tearing both apart and finding that the gear was not a drop in replacement.

$$$frumnuttin, You are correct, as soon as i began cutting I could tell this is acetyl, not hdpe.

Here's a few comparison shots of both units. Old unit on the left has the blue gear over its pot. The new manual one I bought by mistake on right, has the natural color gear. There are many differences between the two, but there doesn't need to be.

On the left you can clearly see the broken gear. The shaft inside spins in it and won't drive the door consistently, so the computer goes haywire over that cause it can't tell where the stops are.




Here's a closeup of the pot under the gear on the new unit. On the old one, the pot is so close to the color of the circuit board below, it was hard to see and I wasn't going to get out my macro lens just for that shot. Suffice to say, it is there. It's just not quite as big and really not as visible.



Then I wanted to find the values being sent as feedback to the controller. Keep in mind that blue gear will make full revolutions, so there's no stops to tell us where it is electrically centered. I'll have to stick a meter on to figure out how where that point is, then I can assemble the drive gear in the central position and assume (you know what that means) that it is in the right spot. Here we go.

The photo shows the maximum value of the pot which is under the blue gear. Turn that gear by hand and check for your max value. Use pins 9 and 10 on either manual or automatic units, with your meter set to ohms, to find those values. This one is about 8K6 ohms and these are linear taper pots. Where they dug up 8K6 I have no idea... but, this is GM... This is the old unit shown. After I'm done here, I should be at the center of travel with respect to the door.



Now hunt for where the low point is, and it really does go to 0 ohms. I also saw 1 ohm, so we'll just say 0 - 8K6



So, I'm gonna use 4K3 as my center value. Getting exact isn't needed, and you'll see why when you turn one of these pots and try to hit a number. It ain't easy!




The car put this new actuator in the position shown and you can see the stop is centered. I'm assuming it chose the center location for a good reason. In any case, it's about the same value as the old one if centered up electrically. I'm gonna run with it.



Comparison of the two cases and guts. New on the right, old on the left.



The old and new gears have differing types of stops. The old one was outside the case, the new one is inside, so I have to modify the case to facilitate the new stop. I also have to make a bushing for the new gear so it has a bearing surface to ride in the old case. Then, it's shaft will need turned down to fit inside the cover of the old unit as well. The slop in this arrangement as made by GM was about .060" (WOW!). All the rest of it is rather close, but those drive gears have a mile of slop. It won't when I'm done. It'll have about .003 or so, max.



Making a bushing for the gear to fit the old larger case. Used .002 press fit on the plastic gear.



New gear with alum bushing installed.



Getting ready to remove this ring of plastic that holds up the gear.



Had to remove some of this ring to allow the gear to sit down in since it does not have the same relief in it as the old one did.



Old unit assembled with the new gear



In another mill, routed out this area to make clearance for the new type of gear stop that's inside the case.



Tadaaaa!! The finished actuator! That was easy! And it works! No more codes! But, still no air cause I've got another nice expensive leak. I am really starting to not like this car...

bighank

Much cheaper to buy hoses/guage set and R134a and charge it yourself.
My 98 takes just over a pound and a half which is just about what you get with 2 12 oz cans. Keep the cans upright to feed only vapor not liquid into only the low side while running the compressor when charging.
I take a bucket of hot water and put the can in it when charging as the freon leaving the can makes it get really cold. Can almost get all the freon out of the can this way. After attaching the can bleed the air out of the line for about a second so you don't inject air into the system.

K-Spaz

I don't mean to sound too stupid here, but what is "HF"?

My concerns with doing the A/C recharges are:

1: Can I purge it? What equipment is needed for that?
2: Can I meter what is going in? Weigh cans, etc?
3: Can I install dye and oil? Does it go in the same way as the refrigerant?
4: With the application of a bit of common sense, can I safely assure I will not overcharge the system and destroy more things?

If so, I'll be buying the gauges tonight!

bighank

HF is Harbor Freight both online and in many areas stores.
I have their guages and paid $39.95 for them. They sometimes sell them at $45 but about every other month they are $39.95.

1. I didn't purge systems for years. If you don't open the system (open a line and replace parts) then no air will get in.
I made a $0.00 vacuum pump from an old sealed compressor from a refrigerator, some rubber tubing, and a brass fitting that will connect to the fitting on the center hose of a guage set. OMG it actually cost me about $2 for the fitting. The compressor is about 30 years old and still pulls about 28 inches of vacuum.

2. If you use the small cans of R134a they typically weigh 12 oz. Could weigh them but 2 cans in a C5 is just about a full charge.

3. Dye is typically found in a can of R134A with dye. Installs the same way as a regular can of R134a. Have never see any dye not in a can but might exist.
Oil can be found in either a pressurized can that looks like a R134a can and is installed thru the guageset hoses like the R134a OR:
Can get the oil in a can or bottle and pour it into the system.
When I replaced the orfice tube located on the right front fender the old one was bone dry. I poured about 3 ounces of oil directly into the tubing before replacing the new orfice tube. It costs about $5 and is easy to install (one bolt at the bulge in high pressure line on the fender). You MUST discharge the system before doing this or you will get an oil and freon shower when you open the line.

4. If you don't use more than 2 cans you won't overchange the system. A small overcharging will not damage the system but will reduce the cooling. Way too much freon like several #, can allow liquid refrigerant to get back to the compressor and this could damage it.
I have in the past overcharged R12 systems and only got less cooling.
Discharging, evacuating, and recharging solved the problem with no damage to anything.

Since you spent several hundred dollars recharging your AC it might be more cost effective to do it yourself. I wouldn't recommend buying a 30# bottle of r134a as you would need an accurate refrigeration scale to measure the charge.

K-Spaz

Thanks for the info, that helps. I stopped into the auto parts store this am before work to get an idea where I'm headed. They've got a bunch of recharging options but funny enough, I didn't see any R134a with dye... I have purchased their dye for oil and engine cooling before and thought they had A/C oil in a blister pack too. In fact I'm almost certain of it. I sorta wondered how you got that in the system.

In any case, I ordered a new compressor and that's on the way for tomorrow. It wasn't till I went to bed last night that I figured out HF was Harbor Freight... duh. oh well. I have one about 15 minutes drive from work so I may look online and then stop in and grab a set of gauges later. For now, I have to go do real work to earn money and pay for all this car crap I'm buyin.

One last thing. I was under the impression that the compressor won't run if the A/C has no refrigerant in it. How do you force the compressor to run if that is the case, or am I incorrect in that thinking?

bighank

The low pressure switch is in the right front fender. Pull off the connector and use a paper clip or piece of wire to jumper the two terminals.

K-Spaz

Cool, thanks again!

If only the car was as easy as this forum!