Dead C5
07-06-2014, 05:14 PM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Dead C5
So, my C5 is dead, and I'm trying to narrow down the cause. I just made a road trip from CT to MD, and everything was fine. I started the car yesterday morning, and drove about 5 miles to where my wife and I were meeting family for breakfast. Afterward, my C5 would not start - the starter would not engage. The battery is fine, and I was even unable to push start the car by popping the clutch. I had my C5 towed to my Dad's mechanic. I pulled diagnostic code B2723 and noticed "LOC" displayed on the radio.
The mechanic was unable to do anything with it. I am heading back up to CT tonight and I going to borrow one of my parents' cars as my C5 sits unable to start, steering column locked.
The mechanic suggested that I overnight my other car key to see if that will start it. He thought the chip in the key could be bad. If that's not it, he thought the recall regarding the column lock would necessitate a tow to a Chevy dealer.
I DO NOT have the "service column lock" message on the DIC. I pulled the code, and noticed the "LOC" on the radio - nothing else.
Is it possible that my key is just bad / worn? Or, could it be the ignition cylinder just won't read the key?
I am hoping to avoid the recall service and I have a custom tune. If I have no choice, I can reflash the PCM later, but would like to avoid that. Any suggestions or guidance from anyone who has been though this? Much appreciated!
The mechanic was unable to do anything with it. I am heading back up to CT tonight and I going to borrow one of my parents' cars as my C5 sits unable to start, steering column locked.
The mechanic suggested that I overnight my other car key to see if that will start it. He thought the chip in the key could be bad. If that's not it, he thought the recall regarding the column lock would necessitate a tow to a Chevy dealer.
I DO NOT have the "service column lock" message on the DIC. I pulled the code, and noticed the "LOC" on the radio - nothing else.
Is it possible that my key is just bad / worn? Or, could it be the ignition cylinder just won't read the key?
I am hoping to avoid the recall service and I have a custom tune. If I have no choice, I can reflash the PCM later, but would like to avoid that. Any suggestions or guidance from anyone who has been though this? Much appreciated!
07-07-2014, 08:28 AM
#2
Instructor
Thread Starter
When you turn the key to the ON position and just leave it there, what happens to the security light on the dash? Flashes?? On steady?? Out??
What testing have you done to the battery to KNOW that it is in fact OK?
I suggest that you use a digital multi meter to measure battery voltage directly across the battery with the neg battery cable disconnected. It the battery measure 12.5 volts or less, then the battery needs to be charged fully. Don't bother reading the voltage from the dash gauges. They report the state of health of the charging system and NOT the state of health of the battery. With engine running they show the output voltage of the alternator. With key on and engine off the value shown has little meaning relative to battery health since many electrical circuits are loading the battery in the on position.
The LOC on the radio is because the battery voltage has dropped below a minimum threshold value.
With the key in the on position set the display on the DIC to something other than the vehicle mileage. Perhaps oil pressure. Turn the key off and then turn the key back on. If the display in the DIC has returned to vehicle mileage, the default, the battery is definitely an issue.
As far as the column lock service being done by the dealer, don't waste your time much less the huge $$$ they will want for NON Permanent fix. If you have not installed a CLB or LMC5 to permanently correct the column lock symptoms, what have you been waiting for?? GM has NEVER had a permanent solution for the column lock problem and never will.
What testing have you done to the battery to KNOW that it is in fact OK?
I suggest that you use a digital multi meter to measure battery voltage directly across the battery with the neg battery cable disconnected. It the battery measure 12.5 volts or less, then the battery needs to be charged fully. Don't bother reading the voltage from the dash gauges. They report the state of health of the charging system and NOT the state of health of the battery. With engine running they show the output voltage of the alternator. With key on and engine off the value shown has little meaning relative to battery health since many electrical circuits are loading the battery in the on position.
The LOC on the radio is because the battery voltage has dropped below a minimum threshold value.
With the key in the on position set the display on the DIC to something other than the vehicle mileage. Perhaps oil pressure. Turn the key off and then turn the key back on. If the display in the DIC has returned to vehicle mileage, the default, the battery is definitely an issue.
As far as the column lock service being done by the dealer, don't waste your time much less the huge $$$ they will want for NON Permanent fix. If you have not installed a CLB or LMC5 to permanently correct the column lock symptoms, what have you been waiting for?? GM has NEVER had a permanent solution for the column lock problem and never will.
In my research, I have seen some debate on the CLB / LMC5 affect on the BCM, but nothing conclusive. That's the first I will do upon getting my car back: any opinion on which is the better route to go with?
07-07-2014, 09:14 AM
#3
Le Mans Master
If you have a Security issue not allowing the car to be cranked and started here is something you can try.
Here is a way to jumper the car to start and drive. PLEASE MAKE SURE THE CAR IS IN NEUTRAL WHEN YOU DO THIS. Go to Post 66 and read about jumpering the Theft Deterrent Relay.
The jumper is just used to get the starter going to fire up the engine. Remove it as soon as it fires since the starter is engaged when the jumper is in place.
You can test it first with the ignition OFF to see how it gets the starter turning. Then with the key in ON you can crank and start the car and drive off.
I know several people that have used this and it worked perfectly.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ipc-out-4.html
With regard to CL issues, there is NO question in my mind. Get the LMC5. Their eBay ad has a good video showing installation. The written instructions have some guidance not in the video. This should help:
Not uncommon for people to "put the column in a lock condition" and not know it and then start with the install. If not actually locked yet, it will be as soon as you turn the steering wheel after the LMC5 install. It will then remain in the locked condition until you cause the motor to unlock. It will then remain in the unlocked condition since the motor is then unpowered with the circuits disconnected.
Here is one way to prevent that if your column locks and unlocks normally:
If the CL is functioning normally you don't not need the Unlocker, merely turn key on, pull fuse #23, remove key, verify wheel is unlocked, disconnect negative battery terminal, re-insert fuse #23 and continue with the install.
Here is a way to jumper the car to start and drive. PLEASE MAKE SURE THE CAR IS IN NEUTRAL WHEN YOU DO THIS. Go to Post 66 and read about jumpering the Theft Deterrent Relay.
The jumper is just used to get the starter going to fire up the engine. Remove it as soon as it fires since the starter is engaged when the jumper is in place.
You can test it first with the ignition OFF to see how it gets the starter turning. Then with the key in ON you can crank and start the car and drive off.
I know several people that have used this and it worked perfectly.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-t...ipc-out-4.html
With regard to CL issues, there is NO question in my mind. Get the LMC5. Their eBay ad has a good video showing installation. The written instructions have some guidance not in the video. This should help:
Not uncommon for people to "put the column in a lock condition" and not know it and then start with the install. If not actually locked yet, it will be as soon as you turn the steering wheel after the LMC5 install. It will then remain in the locked condition until you cause the motor to unlock. It will then remain in the unlocked condition since the motor is then unpowered with the circuits disconnected.
Here is one way to prevent that if your column locks and unlocks normally:
If the CL is functioning normally you don't not need the Unlocker, merely turn key on, pull fuse #23, remove key, verify wheel is unlocked, disconnect negative battery terminal, re-insert fuse #23 and continue with the install.
07-07-2014, 02:01 PM
#4
Instructor
Thread Starter
Security light on solid with the key in the ignition says the chip on the key was not read correctly. So the theft deterrent system then prevents the starter from being engaged. The method that is presented in the above post by Sam will work to start the car but will NOT unlock the column so you will then likely run into the 2mph fuel shutoff once the engine is running. Here is a method that should work to unlock the column:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...ghlight=unlock
Don't be afraid to use some arm force when you try it and it sometimes takes more than one attempt to get the column freed up.
Either the CLB or LMC5 will work as a bypass of the column lock system. Since your car is a 99 I would use an LMC5 rather than a CLB. This is because the column lock recall service that has most likely already been done to your car would have added a "spliced purple wire and relay" mod by the dealership that performed the recall service. In order to use a CLB on a 99 or 2000 with that mod you MUST bypass the column lock relay if the CLB is to work reliably. The LMC5 abandons all the factory wiring and recall "stuff" downstream of the BCM. A better choice than modifying the factory/recall components.
The key not being read may be the result of the chip in the key being bad or it may be the result of the fine wire inside the key cylinder that reads the chip having been damaged. If the key chip is bad, your backup key will work. If it is the wire in the key cylinder being damaged then you will need to replace the cylinder. Alternatively there is a resistor mod that will permanently bypass that security function. I do NOT recommend that approach if you have the column lock bypassed because there is NO theft deterrent left in the car to prevent a thief from stealing the car.
I STRONGLY urge you to NOT let a dealership touch the car relative to the column lock issue. They will tell you the lock motor is bad and needs to be replaced and that will cost you $1000 or more. Bypassing the column lock system disconnects the lock motor so you don't need one with either the LMC5 or CLB.......
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...ghlight=unlock
Don't be afraid to use some arm force when you try it and it sometimes takes more than one attempt to get the column freed up.
Either the CLB or LMC5 will work as a bypass of the column lock system. Since your car is a 99 I would use an LMC5 rather than a CLB. This is because the column lock recall service that has most likely already been done to your car would have added a "spliced purple wire and relay" mod by the dealership that performed the recall service. In order to use a CLB on a 99 or 2000 with that mod you MUST bypass the column lock relay if the CLB is to work reliably. The LMC5 abandons all the factory wiring and recall "stuff" downstream of the BCM. A better choice than modifying the factory/recall components.
The key not being read may be the result of the chip in the key being bad or it may be the result of the fine wire inside the key cylinder that reads the chip having been damaged. If the key chip is bad, your backup key will work. If it is the wire in the key cylinder being damaged then you will need to replace the cylinder. Alternatively there is a resistor mod that will permanently bypass that security function. I do NOT recommend that approach if you have the column lock bypassed because there is NO theft deterrent left in the car to prevent a thief from stealing the car.
I STRONGLY urge you to NOT let a dealership touch the car relative to the column lock issue. They will tell you the lock motor is bad and needs to be replaced and that will cost you $1000 or more. Bypassing the column lock system disconnects the lock motor so you don't need one with either the LMC5 or CLB.......
I am sending an overnight package to my Dad with my other key and David's write up. I'll have him try the key first, obviously. Then, Dave's method. I am going to try and get a LMC5 expressed to him as well. Figure I can have the mechanic install that if my Dad can't get it done with my other key or by Dave's method.
I read about the LMC5, and it looks like it will fix my car, even though the column is locked, right? I am going to buy the LMC5 module, unlocker, and tool kit.
I am guessing that if all the above does not work, I should have the mechanic replace the ignition cylinder? Or will that not be an issue with the LMC5 installed?
As frustrating as it is to deal with this with my car 300 miles away, my wife reminded me that it would be a lot more difficult had this occurred in the middle of our trip at a gas station in the middle of nowhere. At least I have my Dad and a good mechanic on the other end with my car.