Time for a new clutch??
10-08-2014, 06:25 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Time for a new clutch??
My car is an '03 with about 38K miles on it. At this point, the clutch is holding i.e. not slipping. The engagement point, however is close to the top. I understand that the stock clutch pressure point is not adjustable. I have read were the stock master cylinder can be replaced with a Trick adjustable master cylinder. It's my understanding that the Trick master cylinder increases clutch pedal effort, however. Also, would changing the master cylinder be just a "band-aid?"
Assuming I do need a new clutch, from the research I've done, that a LS6 clutch is a good compromise between drivability and performance. Additionally, the LS6 clutch is a "simple" bolt on. My car has long tube headers and a tune. I do not plan on any further mods and, according to my tuners dyno, the car is putting out 350 RWH and 385 lbs. RWT. What is the difference between the LS1 clutch and a LS 6 clutch?
Assuming I do need a new clutch, from the research I've done, that a LS6 clutch is a good compromise between drivability and performance. Additionally, the LS6 clutch is a "simple" bolt on. My car has long tube headers and a tune. I do not plan on any further mods and, according to my tuners dyno, the car is putting out 350 RWH and 385 lbs. RWT. What is the difference between the LS1 clutch and a LS 6 clutch?
10-08-2014, 06:27 PM
#2
Race Director
if you already killed an ls1 clutch with only 38k miles i would absolutely get an ls7 clutch. they are similar money and the scoggin dicky ls7 kit with the ram flywheel weighs the same as the ls6 kit
stock clutch should go 120-170k miles if you aren't racing frequently,
stock clutch should go 120-170k miles if you aren't racing frequently,
10-08-2014, 07:13 PM
#3
Drifting
Thread Starter
racebum............Thanks for your quick reply. My concern with a lightweight flywheel is the RPMs dropping off quickly between shifts. My style of shifting is to try and "rev match" between shifts. A lightweight flywheel will allow the engine to rev quicker, but also fall off faster. It's the weight of the flywheel, not the clutch as a whole, that determines how quickly the engine revs and drops off during deceleration . Am I right about this? Honestly, I am more concerned with drivability than I am with performance. Isn't the reason GM uses a steel flywheel to improve drivability? Given my HP and torque numbers, would the LS7 clutch be overkill? Before my C3, I owned an '06 Z06 and really liked the clutch, but that car had 505 hp.
As a clutch wears, doesn't the pressure point get higher?
As a clutch wears, doesn't the pressure point get higher?
Last edited by Cosmo Kramer; 10-08-2014 at 07:17 PM.
10-08-2014, 07:37 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
I put a new replacement clutch in my 02 Z06. It works great for me. I thought about an LS7 but I just didn't want to chance anything and have a problem.
10-08-2014, 08:39 PM
#6
Race Director
Member Since: Apr 2007
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LS7 with lightweight flywheel is about the same weight as the LS6. Most of the weight is in the flywheel and pressure plate so I doubt it would show much issue shifting.
The C5 hydraulics self adjust, within limits. The throwout bearing has a spring and moves out to the pressure plate. Then, when you push the clutch it moves by the amount of fluid the master pumps.
The C5 hydraulics self adjust, within limits. The throwout bearing has a spring and moves out to the pressure plate. Then, when you push the clutch it moves by the amount of fluid the master pumps.
10-08-2014, 09:46 PM
#7
Race Director
racebum............Thanks for your quick reply. My concern with a lightweight flywheel is the RPMs dropping off quickly between shifts. My style of shifting is to try and "rev match" between shifts. A lightweight flywheel will allow the engine to rev quicker, but also fall off faster. It's the weight of the flywheel, not the clutch as a whole, that determines how quickly the engine revs and drops off during deceleration . Am I right about this? Honestly, I am more concerned with drivability than I am with performance. Isn't the reason GM uses a steel flywheel to improve drivability? Given my HP and torque numbers, would the LS7 clutch be overkill? Before my C3, I owned an '06 Z06 and really liked the clutch, but that car had 505 hp.
As a clutch wears, doesn't the pressure point get higher?
As a clutch wears, doesn't the pressure point get higher?
an iron flywheel on the ls7 adds about 10lbs vs the ls1
10-09-2014, 11:02 AM
#8
Before you decide what setup to buy read the posts regarding balancing. The flywheel and pressure plate are balanced on the engine at the factory. Choosing a combination without proper balancing could end up with vibration.
10-09-2014, 12:32 PM
#9
Platinum Supporting Dealership
LS7 with lightweight flywheel is about the same weight as the LS6. Most of the weight is in the flywheel and pressure plate so I doubt it would show much issue shifting.
The C5 hydraulics self adjust, within limits. The throwout bearing has a spring and moves out to the pressure plate. Then, when you push the clutch it moves by the amount of fluid the master pumps.
The C5 hydraulics self adjust, within limits. The throwout bearing has a spring and moves out to the pressure plate. Then, when you push the clutch it moves by the amount of fluid the master pumps.
My suggestion is to feel the pedal of another C5 Corvette with a factory stock clutch and if yours feels off then replace the clutch/pressure plate & slave cylinder. OEM parts are perfectly fine if you are at or near factory HP.
10-09-2014, 04:34 PM
#10
Racer
When my c5z made 393rwhp(LT's/Intake), the stock 44k mile clutch couldn't hack any kind of performance driving with 30rwhp more than stock. Even short spurts like 2nd -4th roll ons resulted in the clutch pedal stuck on the floor. 1/4 mile? Forget it....trans became a huge PITA to shift.
Installed a Mantic ER2 single....problems solved. With factory pedal feel and engagement. Added HCI(460/415)...still works flawless in all driving conditions.
Buddy of mine with a 69 Camaro(460rwhp)...has similar issues with his LS7 clutch(sticky pedal, clunky shifting) when driven spiritedly. Yes, I realize this is more power than the OP...but why the hell go through the time and effort of a C5 clutch install...only to wonder what will happen if you get the mod bug and grab some gears.
Mantic, Monster, Mcleod etc etc are the only way solve the clutch problems the OEM stuff throws at us permanently, in all driving conditions IMO
10-09-2014, 10:53 PM
#11
Drifting
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St. Jude Donor '14
If the clutch is engaging at the end of the pedal travel, it'll will be slipping soon. I have a monster level 2 and it works great! Slightly more pedal effort than stock, but no big deal. What ever you install make sure you match balance.
10-28-2014, 04:32 PM
#12
My wife and I are going to buy a 2001 to 2004 C5 in the very near future. Hopefully it will have a manual transmission and that's why I've resurrected this thread.
I've read many of this site's threads devoted to what to look for in used C5s, but, AFAI can tell, there is not much devoted to determining the condition of the clutch on a used vehicle.
We've looked at a couple of manual candidates, including a dealership's '04 Z06, which I drove. It had about 55K miles on it and the clutch seemed to me to be OK, but at the time I drove it, I did not do hard accelerations, and I had not driven a manual-transmission car in 20 years. And even on that occasion I was just giving our daughter's manual Accord a test drive to see if it had any suspension deficiencies. I drove a vehicle with a manual transmission for about 20 years in my youth and since then I've had automatics. (I'm 64.)
I have examined various threads and pdf documents describing the clutch replacement procedure on a C5 and it is a rather daunting looking task, even for a lifelong auto DIYr like myself. (For example, I submitted the following on another forum devoted to the Honda Accord, an example of which we owned, and I personally maintained, for 21 years:
http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/foru...ge2/#post24167 )
Anyway, I'm wondering how important it is to go beyond observing clutch pedal action and examine the condition of the clutch components directly, including plate, before buying a vehicle that has on it say 65,000 miles. I'd rather not pay top dollar for a used vehicle (which seems to be the case in our locale) and then soon have to either tack on another $1500 -$2500 for a clutch installation by someone else, or do the job myself.
I called a local dealership that sells a lot of Corvettes and they told me that beyond operating the vehicle to observe the action of the clutch pedal, there's not a reliable method to determine the condtion of the clutch plate. I asked about removing the inspection port, but they said that it took a significant amount of time to remove the port and inspect the clutch and including this procedure in a pre-purchase inspection would make the inspection considerably more expensive. But it could be done.
After I asked, they said that there was no such thing as an average lifespan for a clutch, especially for a Corvette clutch, and then added something about how people who own Vettes might very well want to run them hard (what a surprise!
). To sum up what they said, how a particular car is/has been driven determines the lifespan of the vehicle's clutch. I have just a few questions about used cars with manual transmissions.
1. Before purchasing a vehicle with a manual transmission, how important/necessary is it to get the clutch inspected by removing the inspection port?
2. Exactly what should I be looking for when operating the clutch pedal, and are there any operating conditions under which a worn clutch will be more likely to make itself known-- for example, perhaps slipping under hard acceleration?
3. How long does/should it take a competent person/shop to remove the inspection port (on a vehicle that has stock exhaust) and examine the clutch plate and flywheel, if that is even possible after inspection port removal?
4. When buying a used vehicle that has a manual transmission, does/should the fact that any such vehicle will sooner or later have to have its clutch replaced enter into the negotiation over price and, if so, how much weight should it carry?
Thanks very much for the information and any other advice you might have about buying used vehicles that have manual transmissions.
10-28-2014, 11:32 PM
#13
Advanced
My car is an '03 with about 38K miles on it. At this point, the clutch is holding i.e. not slipping. The engagement point, however is close to the top. I understand that the stock clutch pressure point is not adjustable. I have read were the stock master cylinder can be replaced with a Trick adjustable master cylinder. It's my understanding that the Trick master cylinder increases clutch pedal effort, however. Also, would changing the master cylinder be just a "band-aid?"
Assuming I do need a new clutch, from the research I've done, that a LS6 clutch is a good compromise between drivability and performance. Additionally, the LS6 clutch is a "simple" bolt on. My car has long tube headers and a tune. I do not plan on any further mods and, according to my tuners dyno, the car is putting out 350 RWH and 385 lbs. RWT. What is the difference between the LS1 clutch and a LS 6 clutch?
Assuming I do need a new clutch, from the research I've done, that a LS6 clutch is a good compromise between drivability and performance. Additionally, the LS6 clutch is a "simple" bolt on. My car has long tube headers and a tune. I do not plan on any further mods and, according to my tuners dyno, the car is putting out 350 RWH and 385 lbs. RWT. What is the difference between the LS1 clutch and a LS 6 clutch?
10-29-2014, 10:41 AM
#14
Drifting
Thread Starter
Russell Boulding............I agree with you and the others that 38K for a clutch to be shot is unusual - especially living in the "flatlands" of MN. I did put the car up on jack stands so as to remove the inspection plate and get a good look at the clutch. With long tube headers, however, removing the inspection plate is not a simple five minuet job. I did remove the plastic plate from the bell housing just behind the oil filter and it was caked with clutch dust. So, assuming I removed the main inspection cover (unbolt headers and bungee cord them out of the way,) should I just spray brake cleaner on the throw-out bearing and tranny input shaft to clean them? Using the "Ranger method," I have replaced the clutch fluid (ie: brake fluid.) It took awhile, but I was able to get all the gunk out of the clutch line.
It's my understanding that the clutch is "self adjusting" and that there is no way to manually adjust the clutch. Is this correct? If the clutch can be manually adjusted, please explain the procedure. If, on the other hand, the throw-out bearing is caked with clutch dust, will cleaning it allow the clutch to self adjust its self?
It's my understanding that the clutch is "self adjusting" and that there is no way to manually adjust the clutch. Is this correct? If the clutch can be manually adjusted, please explain the procedure. If, on the other hand, the throw-out bearing is caked with clutch dust, will cleaning it allow the clutch to self adjust its self?
Last edited by Cosmo Kramer; 10-29-2014 at 10:50 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:59 PM
#15
Advanced
Russell Boulding............I agree with you and the others that 38K for a clutch to be shot is unusual - especially living in the "flatlands" of MN. I did put the car up on jack stands so as to remove the inspection plate and get a good look at the clutch. With long tube headers, however, removing the inspection plate is not a simple five minuet job. I did remove the plastic plate from the bell housing just behind the oil filter and it was caked with clutch dust. So, assuming I removed the main inspection cover (unbolt headers and bungee cord them out of the way,) should I just spray brake cleaner on the throw-out bearing and tranny input shaft to clean them? Using the "Ranger method," I have replaced the clutch fluid (ie: brake fluid.) It took awhile, but I was able to get all the gunk out of the clutch line.
It's my understanding that the clutch is "self adjusting" and that there is no way to manually adjust the clutch. Is this correct? If the clutch can be manually adjusted, please explain the procedure. If, on the other hand, the throw-out bearing is caked with clutch dust, will cleaning it allow the clutch to self adjust its self?
It's my understanding that the clutch is "self adjusting" and that there is no way to manually adjust the clutch. Is this correct? If the clutch can be manually adjusted, please explain the procedure. If, on the other hand, the throw-out bearing is caked with clutch dust, will cleaning it allow the clutch to self adjust its self?
With a helper in the drivers seat locate 2 of the three spring stops for the stepped adjustment plate. They will be easily identifiable as they have coil type springs visible through a slot. Position the clutch assembly so that you can use screwdrivers to rotate the stepped plate, the thing the springs are attached to, COUNTER CLOCKWISE. But don't try to rotate them yet. Just make sure you are positioned so that you can. Have your helper push the pedal in until you can move the adjusting plate/ring. Rotate the ring as far COUNTER CLOCKWISE as you can fully compressing the springs. With the ring held in this position have your helper release the pedal. You are done.
Last edited by Russell Boulding; 10-29-2014 at 09:01 PM. Reason: accidentally submitted before finished
10-29-2014, 09:34 PM
#16
Race Director
I'm a newbie and this will be my third post.
My wife and I are going to buy a 2001 to 2004 C5 in the very near future. Hopefully it will have a manual transmission and that's why I've resurrected this thread.
I've read many of this site's threads devoted to what to look for in used C5s, but, AFAI can tell, there is not much devoted to determining the condition of the clutch on a used vehicle.
We've looked at a couple of manual candidates, including a dealership's '04 Z06, which I drove. It had about 55K miles on it and the clutch seemed to me to be OK, but at the time I drove it, I did not do hard accelerations, and I had not driven a manual-transmission car in 20 years. And even on that occasion I was just giving our daughter's manual Accord a test drive to see if it had any suspension deficiencies. I drove a vehicle with a manual transmission for about 20 years in my youth and since then I've had automatics. (I'm 64.)
I have examined various threads and pdf documents describing the clutch replacement procedure on a C5 and it is a rather daunting looking task, even for a lifelong auto DIYr like myself. (For example, I submitted the following on another forum devoted to the Honda Accord, an example of which we owned, and I personally maintained, for 21 years:
http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/foru...ge2/#post24167 )
Anyway, I'm wondering how important it is to go beyond observing clutch pedal action and examine the condition of the clutch components directly, including plate, before buying a vehicle that has on it say 65,000 miles. I'd rather not pay top dollar for a used vehicle (which seems to be the case in our locale) and then soon have to either tack on another $1500 -$2500 for a clutch installation by someone else, or do the job myself.
I called a local dealership that sells a lot of Corvettes and they told me that beyond operating the vehicle to observe the action of the clutch pedal, there's not a reliable method to determine the condtion of the clutch plate. I asked about removing the inspection port, but they said that it took a significant amount of time to remove the port and inspect the clutch and including this procedure in a pre-purchase inspection would make the inspection considerably more expensive. But it could be done.
After I asked, they said that there was no such thing as an average lifespan for a clutch, especially for a Corvette clutch, and then added something about how people who own Vettes might very well want to run them hard (what a surprise!). To sum up what they said, how a particular car is/has been driven determines the lifespan of the vehicle's clutch.
I have just a few questions about used cars with manual transmissions.
1. Before purchasing a vehicle with a manual transmission, how important/necessary is it to get the clutch inspected by removing the inspection port?
2. Exactly what should I be looking for when operating the clutch pedal, and are there any operating conditions under which a worn clutch will be more likely to make itself known-- for example, perhaps slipping under hard acceleration?
3. How long does/should it take a competent person/shop to remove the inspection port (on a vehicle that has stock exhaust) and examine the clutch plate and flywheel, if that is even possible after inspection port removal?
4. When buying a used vehicle that has a manual transmission, does/should the fact that any such vehicle will sooner or later have to have its clutch replaced enter into the negotiation over price and, if so, how much weight should it carry?
Thanks very much for the information and any other advice you might have about buying used vehicles that have manual transmissions.
My wife and I are going to buy a 2001 to 2004 C5 in the very near future. Hopefully it will have a manual transmission and that's why I've resurrected this thread.
I've read many of this site's threads devoted to what to look for in used C5s, but, AFAI can tell, there is not much devoted to determining the condition of the clutch on a used vehicle.
We've looked at a couple of manual candidates, including a dealership's '04 Z06, which I drove. It had about 55K miles on it and the clutch seemed to me to be OK, but at the time I drove it, I did not do hard accelerations, and I had not driven a manual-transmission car in 20 years. And even on that occasion I was just giving our daughter's manual Accord a test drive to see if it had any suspension deficiencies. I drove a vehicle with a manual transmission for about 20 years in my youth and since then I've had automatics. (I'm 64.)
I have examined various threads and pdf documents describing the clutch replacement procedure on a C5 and it is a rather daunting looking task, even for a lifelong auto DIYr like myself. (For example, I submitted the following on another forum devoted to the Honda Accord, an example of which we owned, and I personally maintained, for 21 years:
http://www.hondaaccordforum.com/foru...ge2/#post24167 )
Anyway, I'm wondering how important it is to go beyond observing clutch pedal action and examine the condition of the clutch components directly, including plate, before buying a vehicle that has on it say 65,000 miles. I'd rather not pay top dollar for a used vehicle (which seems to be the case in our locale) and then soon have to either tack on another $1500 -$2500 for a clutch installation by someone else, or do the job myself.
I called a local dealership that sells a lot of Corvettes and they told me that beyond operating the vehicle to observe the action of the clutch pedal, there's not a reliable method to determine the condtion of the clutch plate. I asked about removing the inspection port, but they said that it took a significant amount of time to remove the port and inspect the clutch and including this procedure in a pre-purchase inspection would make the inspection considerably more expensive. But it could be done.
After I asked, they said that there was no such thing as an average lifespan for a clutch, especially for a Corvette clutch, and then added something about how people who own Vettes might very well want to run them hard (what a surprise!
). To sum up what they said, how a particular car is/has been driven determines the lifespan of the vehicle's clutch. I have just a few questions about used cars with manual transmissions.
1. Before purchasing a vehicle with a manual transmission, how important/necessary is it to get the clutch inspected by removing the inspection port?
2. Exactly what should I be looking for when operating the clutch pedal, and are there any operating conditions under which a worn clutch will be more likely to make itself known-- for example, perhaps slipping under hard acceleration?
3. How long does/should it take a competent person/shop to remove the inspection port (on a vehicle that has stock exhaust) and examine the clutch plate and flywheel, if that is even possible after inspection port removal?
4. When buying a used vehicle that has a manual transmission, does/should the fact that any such vehicle will sooner or later have to have its clutch replaced enter into the negotiation over price and, if so, how much weight should it carry?
Thanks very much for the information and any other advice you might have about buying used vehicles that have manual transmissions.
i live in oregon and have an oregon/wash car that's been here since it was born. clutch has 104k on it and works perfect, it's even a z06
corrosion could be what killed yours. marine air/salt/humidity can be hell on mild steel.
if your clutch isn't working well you can flush the fluid, beyond that you could try a new master but everything else requires pulling parts and replacing things
also read up on the balance issue before you do a clutch job. some c5s were hot balanced at the factory and need a new clutch to be exact balanced the same way
10-31-2014, 01:01 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
clutches are almost impossible to inspect. with a boreascope you could to a degree but a lot is done by feel
i live in oregon and have an oregon/wash car that's been here since it was born. clutch has 104k on it and works perfect, it's even a z06
corrosion could be what killed yours. marine air/salt/humidity can be hell on mild steel.
if your clutch isn't working well you can flush the fluid, beyond that you could try a new master but everything else requires pulling parts and replacing things
also read up on the balance issue before you do a clutch job. some c5s were hot balanced at the factory and need a new clutch to be exact balanced the same way
i live in oregon and have an oregon/wash car that's been here since it was born. clutch has 104k on it and works perfect, it's even a z06
corrosion could be what killed yours. marine air/salt/humidity can be hell on mild steel.
if your clutch isn't working well you can flush the fluid, beyond that you could try a new master but everything else requires pulling parts and replacing things
also read up on the balance issue before you do a clutch job. some c5s were hot balanced at the factory and need a new clutch to be exact balanced the same way
10-31-2014, 01:53 PM
#18
Racer
Is there a way to balance the new clutch and flywheel before pulling the old one? I purchased an LS7 clutch kit, and would prefer to have it balanced before taking the car to the shop to have the work done. Would most shops be able to balance the new setup, or are they likely to just install it as is?
The hot balance issue has to do with some engines being fine tune balanced externally by installing weights into the FW and/or damper AFTER they are installed on the engine (and the pressure plate is on the engine). If you have a car that had this done, and you want to duplicate that balance, you need to have stock FW/PP assembly checked for whatever state of balance it is in, and have your replacement setup MATCHED to that. That can only be done after you take out the original and check its balance.
Technically, all replacement clutch assemblies should be matched to the original, if you want to maintain the factory balance. It may be real close to zero, a little out from zero, or quite a bit out from zero. Whatever it happens to be, it works with your factory engine's internals, and should be duplicated if you don't want to take chances in feeling new vibrations.
Last edited by thbwlZ; 10-31-2014 at 01:55 PM.
10-31-2014, 02:25 PM
#19
Race Director
A shop could zero balance a clutch assembly without knowing anything about the original clutch assembly, if that was the goal.
The hot balance issue has to do with some engines being fine tune balanced externally by installing weights into the FW and/or damper AFTER they are installed on the engine (and the pressure plate is on the engine). If you have a car that had this done, and you want to duplicate that balance, you need to have stock FW/PP assembly checked for whatever state of balance it is in, and have your replacement setup MATCHED to that. That can only be done after you take out the original and check its balance.
Technically, all replacement clutch assemblies should be matched to the original, if you want to maintain the factory balance. It may be real close to zero, a little out from zero, or quite a bit out from zero. Whatever it happens to be, it works with your factory engine's internals, and should be duplicated if you don't want to take chances in feeling new vibrations.
The hot balance issue has to do with some engines being fine tune balanced externally by installing weights into the FW and/or damper AFTER they are installed on the engine (and the pressure plate is on the engine). If you have a car that had this done, and you want to duplicate that balance, you need to have stock FW/PP assembly checked for whatever state of balance it is in, and have your replacement setup MATCHED to that. That can only be done after you take out the original and check its balance.
Technically, all replacement clutch assemblies should be matched to the original, if you want to maintain the factory balance. It may be real close to zero, a little out from zero, or quite a bit out from zero. Whatever it happens to be, it works with your factory engine's internals, and should be duplicated if you don't want to take chances in feeling new vibrations.
this is exactly the case
when you remove your old clutch make sure you mark where TDC or some other reference point is. the machine shop then can tell how many grams off your clutch is from that point and balance the new one the same. you absolutely must install the new one with the offset weight in the identical location. this is why you must mark the old clutch and the new one and install the same way
