strand rider

I am trying to picture a situation where there is enough condensation formed in storage that , in clean oil , it would not evaporate out when driven to do so. It is not as though the engine turns into a condensation still when in storage.

As I understand it, smog controlled engines keep the oil pretty clean. So, a drive designed to run the moisture out of the storage oil would seem to be enough. how different are the amount of contaminates generated by the first drive after storage compared to regular driving and a start up late night covered with dew.

However, just because I can not picture it, doesn't mean I presume to know about storage conditions that would generate the need for a double oil change.

rt1970ls6

First of all, let me state that I am NOT a petroleum know-it-all. I rely on informative, reliable sources, rather than rumor and word of mouth. After reading the quotation from SynLube, which I quoted previously, one stated cause of sludge was water, correct? As far as I know, there are four possible causes of water in an internal combustion engine. First, there is condensation that occurs naturally in the engine, similar to the way water droplets form on the outside of an iced drink. The water condense on the cooler surface out of "thin air", right? Secondly, there is the possibility of leaking cooling water passages, i.e., blown or leaking head gasket (or other sealing surfaces or cracked or defective engine components). Third, and least probable, the possibility of foreign water intrusion such as someone pouring water into the engine. Fourth the chemical combustion and blowby process where water, H2O, is one of the many by-products of combustion.

First, condensation occurs from the warmer (relatively in comparison to the surface) moist air contacting a cooler surface (like the iced drink in a glass outdoors). This process is unavoidable, but can be diminished with controlled climate storage. The second cause is unlikely, unless the engine is in need of repairs. Third, very unlikely, unless someone does not like you, or a misguided person thought the engine oil fill was the windshield washer (joke, of course). Fourth, a natural result of engine operation.

Based on the explanation of SynLube, my first suspicion would be condensation by mere process of elimination if speaking about problems during storage or resulting from storage. Combustion process (and condensation from heat/cool cycles) are the culprit during operation. Have you ever seen the engine oil after a blown head gasket? It looks like a milkshake, right? So yes, under certain conditions, oil may have water vapor entrained in it. Also, when an engine is started, the oil is well below 212 degrees Fahrenheit for some time. Until such time as the oil is above 212 degrees (give or take a few degrees), the water will not quickly dissipate. Also, the article by SynLube did not specify the QUANTITY of water required to cause sludge, did it? Therefore, if the one of the primary causes of sludge is water (and low temperature operation), what would that lead one to think?

The following statements were taken from this website: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...lysis-varnish:

"The recognition and control of varnish and sludge needs to begin with an understanding of how these materials emerge from the oil. Figure 1 shows four common formation mechanisms. However, there are numerous other causes that will not be explored in this paper. These include hydrolysis, mixing of incompatible fluids/additives, additive precipitation, microbial contamination, radiation, and chemical interactions with sealants, hoses, elastomers, surface coatings, etc. Contact the author for information on these sludge formation processes."

The article also contains some detailed, but very informative, diagrams. Please check it out.

Please also peruse this article (very informative) found at http://www.gregraven.org/hotwater/oil/:

"Protect Against Rust and Corrosion

Even in a perfectly sealed engine with pure fuel, water will get into the engine and condensate on engine parts. How? For every gallon of gasoline that is burned, a little over a gallon of water is formed as a by-product. Since the formation of this water vapor is part of normal engine operation, it is part of the oil's job to prevent rust.

The engine is open to another form of corrosion, too. When the oil becomes contaminated with soot particles from the combustion process and is heated beyond a certain point, it turns from its normal alkaline state to an acidic state. This acid can attack the metal engine parts and cause corrosion unless neutralized quickly.

Rust Inhibition

Oil prevents rust, right? Not necessarily. At least, not all oils do it in the same degree. Conventional oils and synthesized hydrocarbons are better than esters in rust prevention. Under normal circumstances this would not be a factor, but for vehicles that are stored, or for engines that never reach a sustained high temperature (making only short trips during the winter, for example) rust inhibition could become critical."

Please note water infiltrates the engine while running. Condensation affects it during storage. Doesn't sound good, does it?

There is a wealth of reliable information at one's disposal on the internet. Just Google "Engine oil sludge" and variants of the same such as "after storage" and read up. You will find much more than I quoted. Once you read them all you can make better informed decisions about how to keep you car running at its utmost. Thanks for the inquiry.

Robert T "Robby" Tolbert, P.E.

olbear1962

Always have fresh oil if an engine is going to "sit" for an extended period of time. Oldschool rule of thumb!
The cost of oil is cheap compared to effects of corrosion etc.

My $0.02's

lionelhutz

Many years ago I pulled an old station wagon with a 400 SBC engine out of a backyard. It had been sitting for about 10 years. I swapped the engine into a Beaumont and drove it all summer. No oil change. The engine oil looked no different than any other oil when I finally changed it. No brown sludge. No water. I personally think people spend way too much time worrying about the oil during storage. Take the car for a 20-30 minute run once out of storage and the oil is as good as it will be any other time of the year. If the oil is old enough it's getting close to change time then change it.

I changed the oil in my car about 2 months ago because it was due. It won't get changed again before storage. It will have 2-3k miles on it. My car has >160k miles on it. If bad oil was going to kill the engine it should be dead by now.

rt1970ls6

First of all, I am being misquoted. I never said ANYTHING guaranteed ANYTHING. The question began about changing oil before or after storage and the harmful effects of which way to do it. I quoted that SynLube and other knowledgeable sources address the formation of sludge and the causes. I reported what people who manufacture oil, and study oil daily, report their findings. They report causes of sludge, much of it is caused by low temperature operation and introduction of water. I never stated that not changing it EVER, would even guarantee sludge formation. However, that is akin to someone who says, "My uncle smoked from the time he was 15 until he died at age 92. He was in perfect health until he was killed in an auto accident." That may be true, but does that make smoking a desirable practice? Would it guarantee long life? Obviously, no. However, not to be argumentative, when you change oil, even if the oil is sludge laden, or sludge formation is beginning, the oil looks "normal", just dirty. Remember, sludge is what settles out and stays in the engine. in the bottom of oil pans, atop cylinder heads, etc. It accumulates over time. Further, as stated by the oil gurus, sludge formation originates as a thermo-chemical reaction, at the microscopic level, undetectable by the naked eye. If you performed an oil sample chemical analysis, at a genuine laboratory, then you could definitively state whether or not sludge formation was being initiated. Although I understand your position, it is similar to stated one can see the initiation or formation of cancer in a cancer patient. By the time you can tell by looking, it is far too late. Just food for thought.

I have no idea if any sludge existed in your SBC 400 or not. You only really know during a tear down. During my many years of drag racing, I have disassembled many engines and been surprised many times - both ways. Just food for thought.

B-STOCK

Got to agree with you lionel. I guess us older guys who used to change the conventional oil when the crankcases was ventilated have a hard time changing our ways. I have loosened up a bit. A friend gave me a hard time about changing the oil in my C5 without having the rear a little higher than the front to completely drain the crankcase but I figured a couple of ounces of old oil mixed with 6.5 quarts of new and a new filter & magnetic drain plug would be fine. When I try to over do things bad things happen. He now agrees with me since his ramp slipped off the lift and destroyed the his rockers and was hanging by the frame. Much worse than a couple of ounces of dirty oil.

As a matter of fact in high school most of us guys never had to change oil because they burned so much you would have a continues oil change. If you got 100,000 miles on your engine you made the local papers. Good old days my ***.

strand rider

Thanks rt1970ls6 for the detailed reply. Any help is alway appreciated .

I not all panicked about the subject, just was wondering how far some guys go. I know they can get goofy around hobbies, so I clicked in. I also have a vette I haven't run for a while, with clean oil inside, and live among heavy dew conditions, so no harm in picking up others good thoughts.

I looked into the Synlube site you cited, found it confusing. I was unable to find what you were referencing. I decided to bail on the synlube site, as the product is very unconventional and might contain unconventional advice. They had one guy with two oil changes in 35,000 miles, not an interest of mine right now.

the links provided didn't work for me, but, in the sections you used them , seemed concerned with operation , not storage, so I didn't check them. I will probably read them later, I am the curious type.

It seems I was unclear in my question, as a lot of your reply concerned operating conditions. I was trying to learn only about storage, specifically a stored car with new oil. Not a water damaged engine .

I didn't follow your iced tea example, unless you think I need a quick science brush up. I can think of no condition where the engine would be below ambient temperature , although I know glass is usually 4 degrees colder than the air , perhaps metals in the engine also have a similar property, if that is what you were referencing.

I was only wondering if simple water condensation in storage is produced in such amount so that it cannot be evaporated in a drive designed to do so,szw following the topic.

Would a teaspoon be too much, would a cup be no problem. I have often read that a drive will work out overnight condensation,. If condensation is indeed a problem, cars would be parked differently around the world. I would suspect that the conditions that allow condensation would function the same over one night as over many nights and days .

rt1970ls6

I understand your problem. Perhaps I didn't explain it well enough. First of all, as far as the quantities, that is a subject for a research paper and well beyond the scope of Q&A. There is no one shot answer. It all depends on time, temperature, combustion contaminants, etc., etc. Way too complex for this Forum.

Storage of a vehicle rarely ever harms anything in the oil. The upper cylinders may rust (from moisture in the air that enters them through open or leaking valves). Any condensation does not mix with the oil during storage. No contaminants are produced. However, as any articles you may read will state, sludge only forms as a by-product of operation of an internal combustion engine and the contaminants it produces. Have you ever seen sludge in an air compressor? Even if you had run it for 10 years? No. No combustion to cause sludge to form.

As the articles stated, sludge formation is very complex, and results from several different scenarios. All require combustion contamination, all require thermal issues (too cold or too hot, causing sludge formation in different ways) and some site water. Now, if sludge only forms during operation, anything that occurs during storage does not effectively degrade the oil. But the stage MAY be set for oil problems during the springtime operation. Not absolutely or conclusively, but certainly possibly. The only thing that has really changed over the winter of sitting is condensation due to heat/cool cycles. Oil does not "get stale" from sitting, as long as it is protected from contaminants. Here is a statement from a Valvoline FAQ section:

Does motor oil expire? How long does motor oil generally last?

Valvoline motor oil does not have a documented expiration date. Under optimal conditions, the product is stable for an extended period of time and can be used as long as the American Petroleum Institute (API) rating on the label continues to meet or exceed the requirements listed in your owner's manual. If the rating is still current, shake the container before use to blend any additives that may have settled.

Now, on to the iced drink analogy. If you go out on a warm muggy day and set a glass of an iced beverage on a table, water droplets appear on the outside of the glass, correct? They run down onto the table & get the table wet, right? Where does this moisture come from? The glass does not leak. The water condense out of the air around the glass, just like the water that drops from the bottom of the evaporator housing on your Corvette. That water comes from the moist air the A/C is cooling. Now, in heat transfer, heat can be viewed like air pressure in a tire. It ALWAYS, without fail, flows from higher temperature to lower temperature. There is only heat transfer if a temperature difference exists. The greater the temperature difference, the greater the heat transfer, or flow. To engineers and scientists (such as the Big Bang guys, lol) there is only heat, there is no such thing as cold. Heat, like air pressure, can be added or removed, but you cannot add or measure cold, there is just less heat, down to the point of absolute zero (Google it and read for more info). Now, after understanding the heat flow system (heat flow from hot to cooler), when you park your car during the day after operation, and say the day is 70 degrees (all temperature references are in Fahrenheit measurements), the heat from the car flows from the car engine to the surroundings. The car gives off heat. The air is cooler than the car. Now, after some time, the car will cool to 70 degrees (relatively speaking for engineers reading). At night the temperature of the surroundings drop to say 50 degrees. During this time, the engine is warmer than the surroundings, and heat is continually transferring from the engine to the surroundings. The engine's temperature will always lag behind the surroundings due to time of heat transfer. During this phase, the engine is warmer than the surrounding air. No condensation on the engine surfaces occur. Now at some point (probably around pre-dawn), the surrounding temperature reaches its minimum temperature and begins to heat up again. As the temperature rises, the surrounding temperature rises above that of the engine and continues to rise as the day warms up, headed back up to the 70 degrees of yesterday. During this time, the engine is absorbing heat from the surroundings. The engine, as it absorbs heat, is now cooler than the surrounding air, and just like the iced drink, which is cooler than the surrounding air, water condenses on the surfaces of the engine. That is how condensation forms. Obviously, it is much more complex and involves the dew point of the air, the temperatures of the air and engine, etc. I hope this explains it better. Let me know if I can do more.

Apocolipse

You guys are thinking way too hard about this.

If you are using synthetic change it in the fall or spring, doesn't make a difference. Just don't do both.