When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
I can see that... great motors, just gonna have a learning curve and at my age it takes a while
I know the LS still has pistons, valves, cam, crank, and intake...I know it has to have fuel, fire, and air... and they all have to be at the right place at the right time and in the right amounts... I just need to learn how all that is taking place and why.
Replace carb with fuel injectors, aluminum intake with plastic, flat tappit lifters with
hydraulic roller lifters, distributor with coil packs and crank triggera timing light, socket to loosen distributor retaining plate, your hand and ears with hp tuners and an ignition map, street logging (or better yet dyno) and ears. A mechanical diaphragm fuel pump with an electric one and a few other various sensors like cam and you got it.
All the other things like choke is controlled via various tables with in the tune.
They really still operate the same its just computer controlled. :-)
If you have a grasp on elementary algebra (if that) and basic computer skills and a basic understanding of say Microsoft excel layout, you could most certainly learn how to dial these puppies in. :-)
Replace carb with fuel injectors, aluminum intake with plastic, flat tappit lifters with
hydraulic roller lifters, distributor with coil packs and crank triggera timing light, socket to loosen distributor retaining plate, your hand and ears with hp tuners and an ignition map, street logging (or better yet dyno) and ears. A mechanical diaphragm fuel pump with an electric one and a few other various sensors like cam and you got it.
All the other things like choke is controlled via various tables with in the tune.
They really still operate the same its just computer controlled. :-)
If you have a grasp on elementary algebra (if that) and basic computer skills and a basic understanding of say Microsoft excel layout, you could most certainly learn how to dial these puppies in. :-)
Thank you.... I was laying on the couch and the lights suddenly came on...my initial thought to this post was, IT"S out of time...but, I didn't know how that could happen with no distributor, so I dismissed that thought... then the heavens opened, I heard the Angels singing and ... Know I KNOW
Now for this... If you have a grasp on elementary algebra (if that) and basic computer skills and a basic understanding of say Microsoft excel layout, you could most certainly learn how to dial these puppies in.
Good news is, I have had full roller motors, solid and hydraulic cammed with girdles.
Last edited by 73Corvette; 03-29-2015 at 09:06 AM.
well, now you know, there's still a form of static mechanical ignition timing on these things it's just in the form of a reluctor wheel.
On the LS1/6 there's a reluctor built into the cam too.
Jay mentioned earlier asking me where mine is located.
On the later LS engines GM moved it to the front of the engine. Better idea IMHO.
Yup thanks had noticed that in one of my thread reads...something about an extension harness if your changing.
For me it's just a LOT information to absorb... and I'm a slow learner.
Thank you for the tutorials they are VERY helpful!
I don't have enough ego, so I don't mind asking stupid questions...Plus I feel like I am probably asking questions that others would like to know more about but, like me sometimes don't even know what to ask.
Hey Mark... not intending to Hijack your thread just killing some time while you flip your reluctor wheel....if, I was closer I'd bring a six pack of cold ones and help you, well, at least watch you.
thanks for all the ideas and help so far guys. I'm going to try a few things this week once some parts arrived:
I ordered a miniature endoscope, new crank sensor, and crank sensor shim. I'm going to remove the sensor and try to get the endoscope inside the pan to see if the reluctor is on wrong. I still have the original crank here at the house so I'm hopeful I'll be able to accurately determine if thats the problem. If its not, I'll have a new sensor and shim to install.
Also, I'm going to give ECS a call tmrw to ask their opinion on the sensor "re-learn" potential problem. Considering the PCM is from another vehicle and the motor is new, I don't want to rule out the possibility that the PCM may simply need to learn the new sensor. Best case scenario the sensor is bad, next best scenario is that the PCM needs to learn the sensor, worst case (I think) is that the reluctor is on wrong.
In the meantime, out of curiosity.... is it possible to drop the crank from the bottom if I leave the motor in the car? The only issue that comes to mind off the top of my head is dealing with the timing chain while going in and out. Anybody know if there are any other major roadblocks from dropping the crank that way rather than pulling the whole motor? I reallllly don't want to pull this motor from the top again and I don't have a lift.
Hey Mark... not intending to Hijack your thread just killing some time while you flip your reluctor wheel....if, I was closer I'd bring a six pack of cold ones and help you, well, at least watch you.
I appreciate that kind of support my friend! Actually, I just made a run to the drive through beer distributor about 2 hrs ago. LOL I need to sit back and unwind after all this. I am so pi$$ed off words can't explain. It figures...I pay one professional shop to do one thing on my car and they jack it up. Thats exactly why I prefer to do all my own work! On the shortblock, for the punishment I plan to give it I thought, "I better leave this to the pros."...so much for that. Owell, over the next week I'll see what happens and go from there I guess!
There's a reason cars are expensive when you start to mod and its not the first time I've been burned....sure it won't be the last either.
If your builder isn't a LS guru the reluctor install could be the problem.
Ask your builder if he has a Goodson reluctor wheel tool, if not.......
A better reluctor wheel over stock is a billet wheel (no rivets)
Also a good practice is to check the installed reluctor wheel for run out on a crank balance machine.
If they wobble you can loose signal & pull your hair out more
Like Mike said, after everything checks out, the wheel can be tack welded to the crank counter weight so it can't spin on the crank.
.
They did use the Goodson tool, I actually remember them giving me a call with an update during the build and they told me they had to buy one to installt he reluctor. Maybe thats when I should have went and picked the motor up?? lol
If I install the billet wheel the assembly entire assembly would need to be rebalanced correct?
Lastly, Jay, if I ever get this turd done I plan on meeting up with you at the strip to watch YOU lay it down and I'll test out this rear.
I wouldn't even attempt removing the crank without pulling the motor. You still have to drop the cradle, unbolt the bell housing, push the motor forward to clear the torque tube and after all that you need to juggle 8 rods on your back. Which crank did you go with? I thought they usually have the wheel installed. I also had my lsx short block built at justice racing engines. They did a great job for me but my crank had the wheel installed already. I had a issue that driveshaft was a little to long causing the the crank to get pushed forward and loosing crank signal. Same symptoms cranking for a long time and random backfire. I also had the same symptoms when I had the wires stuck between the bell housing and block. I think those were the cam position wires. Good luck I hope its not the reluctor wheel.
Dang it I can't find the thread this was on but there is a way to tell if the reluctor wheel is in the correct poisiton by probing with a wire through the sensor hole...I have never seen one of these wheel is person, and can't find a picture that shows both sides of a 24 wheel.
Anyway here is a pic of a reluctor wheel and it shows the two < > (Baseball diamond) shapes opposite of each other...I don't even remember which is the correct orientation, but according to this post... you can feel those < > shapes and tell at least which way it's facing.... to the front or back. I'm assuming the other side of the wheel only has the < > shapes NOT inset in the circle......make sense?
These pics may make what I'm saying clearer...
Last edited by 73Corvette; 03-29-2015 at 07:03 PM.
I wouldn't even attempt removing the crank without pulling the motor. You still have to drop the cradle, unbolt the bell housing, push the motor forward to clear the torque tube and after all that you need to juggle 8 rods on your back. Which crank did you go with? I thought they usually have the wheel installed. I also had my lsx short block built at justice racing engines. They did a great job for me but my crank had the wheel installed already. I had a issue that driveshaft was a little to long causing the the crank to get pushed forward and loosing crank signal. Same symptoms cranking for a long time and random backfire. I also had the same symptoms when I had the wires stuck between the bell housing and block. I think those were the cam position wires. Good luck I hope its not the reluctor wheel.
Wow, what are the odds you had a motor built there also? Thats almost unbelievable. lol. All the people on the internet and all the shops in the world and you happen to use the same one...small world! I used a Lunati crank and from my understanding all Lunati cranks come with the reluctor OFF. Regardless, 9 times out of 10 the shop would have to remove them anyway to add heavy metal I would think right?
To be honest, I still think I'd rather do it from under the car than to pull it out from the top.- What a pain in the *** it was to get that POS back in from up top. Coming out was easy, but getting it back in without scratching the firewall took a small miracle. The only "extra" work is dropping the front cradle vs what would need to be done to remove the whole thing from the top. I think I'd rather do that at this point than screw with all the extra crap up top - fuel lines, steam vents, blower, coolant etc.
Oh, I forgot to ask - did you have any DIC codes showing when you had your issues? If so, which ones?
Dang it I can't find the thread this was on but there is a way to tell if the reluctor wheel is in the correct poisiton by probing with a wire through the sensor hole...I have never seen one of these wheel is person, and can't find a picture that shows both sides of a 24 wheel.
Anyway here is a pic of a reluctor wheel and it shows the two < > (Baseball diamond) shapes opposite of each other...I don't even remember which is the correct orientation, but according to this post... you can feel those < > shapes and tell at least which way it's facing.... to the front or back. I'm assuming the other side of the wheel only has the < > shapes NOT inset in the circle......make sense?
These pics may make what I'm saying clearer...
73Vette- Thanks for the help. Last night in my deep state of depression I dug up quite a bit of comparison pics etc. The most important comparison I have by far though are the spare cranks I have here at home with the factory wheels still on them. With them here I feel confident I should at least be able to determine if the reluctor is on correct or not (once the camera arrives anyway). I took off work tmrw, I think I'll go out to the garage and lay under the car for a few hours while watching TV and drinking beer.
73Vette- Thanks for the help. Last night in my deep state of depression I dug up quite a bit of comparison pics etc. The most important comparison I have by far though are the spare cranks I have here at home with the factory wheels still on them. With them here I feel confident I should at least be able to determine if the reluctor is on correct or not (once the camera arrives anyway). I took off work tmrw, I think I'll go out to the garage and lay under the car for a few hours while watching TV and drinking beer.
You can tell if it's the correct sensor by removing the sensor from the side of the motor and using your cell phone to get a look into the hole. If it's got the symmetrical teeth like in the pic above, you're in trouble because that's a 05+, later model reluctor.
I didn't see anywhere you posted any codes, if any, but I'm not patient enough to read this whole thing word by word.
If you want to buy HPTuners and you don't have a custom EFI Live operating system installed in that PCM, I can help you properly diagnose this issue. You can PM blownbluez06@RKT56 and I can sell you the HPT module if you like. It includes 30 minutes tutorial time that you can use for whatever you choose, including troubleshooting this issue.
You can use it to watch your cam and crank sensor signals. Also troubleshoot your MAP and MAF, IAT and ECT signals to make sure they're working properly. Once running, you can also use it to see how close your fueling is, compared to what it should be. That and so much more.
When you're done with it, sell it. They hold their value quite well, considering the cost of credits.
Justice was the only guy around that could tap the block for 1/2" studs. That was main reason I went their. Also the big name shops took forever to get back to me. Don't forget you still have to unbolt the flywheel. I think that would be impossible with the torque tube attached. I am not using factory pcm so no codes.
Thought I would update this thread with the resolution that eluded me for entirely too long.
After screwing around with new parts,sensors etc I was finally able to meet up with Doug at ECS. After about 4 minutes here was the result.
As painful as it is to admit and of all the things I could have done wrong with this entire build, I had the coil plugs "backwards" on the passenger side of the motor. Ouch.
Thanks to Doug for working with my schedule and ending the pain!
03-29-2015, 05:45 AM
well, now you know, there's still a form of static mechanical ignition timing on these things it's just in the form of a reluctor wheel. 
I used a Lunati crank and from my understanding all Lunati cranks come with the reluctor OFF. Regardless, 9 times out of 10 the shop would have to remove them anyway to add heavy metal I would think right? 
Ouch.