Those of you who have done your own harmonic balancer job...
12-25-2004, 12:07 PM
#1
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2003
Location: http://www.mphparts.com 800-364-1975
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Those of you who have done your own harmonic balancer job...
Did your old crank bolt push the harmonic balancer ALL the way down on the crank, such that the surface of the HB "hub" was flush with the surface of of the crank? Even after torquing mine to 240ft/lb, there is a (guessing) 5mm gap between the front of the crank and the harmonic balancer hub.
I had some belt issues before and I am wondering if my aftermarket crank was causing them by not allowing the harmonic balancer to fit all the way down on the crank -- or is the balancer not supposed to be flush with the crank?
I had some belt issues before and I am wondering if my aftermarket crank was causing them by not allowing the harmonic balancer to fit all the way down on the crank -- or is the balancer not supposed to be flush with the crank?
12-25-2004, 12:18 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by diynoob
Did your old crank bolt push the harmonic balancer ALL the way down on the crank, such that the surface of the HB "hub" was flush with the surface of of the crank? Even after torquing mine to 240ft/lb, there is a (guessing) 5mm gap between the front of the crank and the harmonic balancer hub.
I had some belt issues before and I am wondering if my aftermarket crank was causing them by not allowing the harmonic balancer to fit all the way down on the crank -- or is the balancer not supposed to be flush with the crank?
I had some belt issues before and I am wondering if my aftermarket crank was causing them by not allowing the harmonic balancer to fit all the way down on the crank -- or is the balancer not supposed to be flush with the crank?
240lbs with the old bolt then 140 degrees with the new bolt. I pinned the new pulley also...
No issues yet and several 6800rpm shifts...
Good luck with it...
12-25-2004, 12:26 PM
#3
Safety Car
Well my ASP pulley wore out fast for some reason. Just after I started spraying. I am in the process of putting a new stock pulley back on. I am going to press the new stock pulley on to atleast 240 to 250ft lbs. Due to how much trouble it is to remove the rack and pinion it is getting on my nerves. I am also planning to soak my ARP bolt in red loctite again. At this point I just want it to stay put.
12-25-2004, 01:07 PM
#4
Racer
Balancer not Flush with Crank
Hi,
The balancer does not fit flush with the crankshaft.
From the shop manual:
“The nose of the crankshaft should be recessed 2.40-4.48mm(0.094”-0.176”) into the balancer bore.”
If you can’t install the stock balancer in the same orientation to the crankshaft as when it was stock, you may want to zero balance it. Chevy uses balance weights pressed into holes in the balancer and flywheel and you may find it is not zero balanced. If you marked it before taking it off, you should be OK.
All of this info is in the shop manual.
Good luck,
Steve
The balancer does not fit flush with the crankshaft.
From the shop manual:
“The nose of the crankshaft should be recessed 2.40-4.48mm(0.094”-0.176”) into the balancer bore.”
If you can’t install the stock balancer in the same orientation to the crankshaft as when it was stock, you may want to zero balance it. Chevy uses balance weights pressed into holes in the balancer and flywheel and you may find it is not zero balanced. If you marked it before taking it off, you should be OK.
All of this info is in the shop manual.
Good luck,
Steve
12-25-2004, 01:27 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
Member Since: Dec 2003
Location: Near Jacksonville Fl.
Posts: 3,314
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes
on
11 Posts
I used the ATI balancer and pinned the crank and made an installer to pull it down on the crank.
I heated the hub to about 300 deg. and it started on then pulled it the rest of the way on with a puller I made from hardened threaded stock and heavy washers and nuts.
Then I used an ARP 12 point balancer bolt with red high strength locktite and torqued it to 150lb ft.
If I remember correctly it does not seat flush with the crank end snout because if it did tightening the bolt to yield would never hold it from spinning. (And in fact it does not anyway)
However 5mm seems a lot, are you using an after market oil pump?
If so it may mean trimming the balancer hub a bit.
What ever you do pin the crank, then the bolt comeing loose will never be a issue.
I heated the hub to about 300 deg. and it started on then pulled it the rest of the way on with a puller I made from hardened threaded stock and heavy washers and nuts.
Then I used an ARP 12 point balancer bolt with red high strength locktite and torqued it to 150lb ft.
If I remember correctly it does not seat flush with the crank end snout because if it did tightening the bolt to yield would never hold it from spinning. (And in fact it does not anyway)
However 5mm seems a lot, are you using an after market oil pump?
If so it may mean trimming the balancer hub a bit.
What ever you do pin the crank, then the bolt comeing loose will never be a issue.
12-25-2004, 03:52 PM
#7
Team Owner
I've done a few of these with no problems. 240 lb. ft. will get your pulley pressed on to the position mentioned above. The illustration below shows this. then you install the new bolt to 37 lb. ft. and then to 140 degrees. Then, pin it if you have the tool.
Last edited by Patches; 12-25-2004 at 08:01 PM.
12-25-2004, 04:29 PM
#8
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by SNW Vette
If you can’t install the stock balancer in the same orientation to the crankshaft as when it was stock, you may want to zero balance it. Chevy uses balance weights pressed into holes in the balancer and flywheel and you may find it is not zero balanced. If you marked it before taking it off, you should be OK.
All of this info is in the shop manual.
Good luck,
Steve
All of this info is in the shop manual.
Good luck,
Steve
Not to bash but I'd like to know where it says anything about orientation of the balancer in the shop manual?
The LS-1 and LS-6 engines are internally balanced and the Harmonic balancer can be installed in any orientation on the crankshaft, I know the flywheel has balance weights and must be reinstalled in the same orientation as it was removed but the harmonic damper doesn't matter
12-25-2004, 08:45 PM
#9
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2003
Location: http://www.mphparts.com 800-364-1975
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies, and merry Christmas to all. A couple of quick notes:
* My crank is aftermarket -- a 383 stroker crank from Callies. I am glad to hear that a bit of recession is normal. As I said, the 5mm number was a guess, it might be slightly less than that. I was just worried that the Callies crank was not 100% to GM crank spec and that it was keeping the HB pressed too far forward. Sounds like it's OK.
* My crank hub has a rectangular keyway in it. I had a machine shop grind the same keyway into a new harmonic balancer before I did the reinstall.
* I am assuming the factory harmonic balancers are zero balanced. Since I had my motor redone and forged less than a year ago the new balancer should be OK, the motor was balanced and blueprinted so my fingers are crossed for no wobbling or odd harmonics.
* I did get the old bolt torqued to 240 ft/lb (it actually stopped moving completely after about 190 ft/lb). I put PLENTY of red loctite on the new bolt and followed the tq to 37ft/lb then turn 140 degree method. Since the balancer and crank is keyed with a rectangular shape, I don't imagine the rotational force of the crank will work the bolt or balancer free.
Sounds like I'm good to go. A good thing too, because I had already put the rack back into place and wasn't largely in favor of taking it back out :-)
Thanks for all the replies, and merry Christmas to all. A couple of quick notes:
* My crank is aftermarket -- a 383 stroker crank from Callies. I am glad to hear that a bit of recession is normal. As I said, the 5mm number was a guess, it might be slightly less than that. I was just worried that the Callies crank was not 100% to GM crank spec and that it was keeping the HB pressed too far forward. Sounds like it's OK.
* My crank hub has a rectangular keyway in it. I had a machine shop grind the same keyway into a new harmonic balancer before I did the reinstall.
* I am assuming the factory harmonic balancers are zero balanced. Since I had my motor redone and forged less than a year ago the new balancer should be OK, the motor was balanced and blueprinted so my fingers are crossed for no wobbling or odd harmonics.
* I did get the old bolt torqued to 240 ft/lb (it actually stopped moving completely after about 190 ft/lb). I put PLENTY of red loctite on the new bolt and followed the tq to 37ft/lb then turn 140 degree method. Since the balancer and crank is keyed with a rectangular shape, I don't imagine the rotational force of the crank will work the bolt or balancer free.
Sounds like I'm good to go. A good thing too, because I had already put the rack back into place and wasn't largely in favor of taking it back out :-)
12-25-2004, 09:19 PM
#10
Safety Car
Originally Posted by diynoob
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies, and merry Christmas to all. A couple of quick notes:
* My crank is aftermarket -- a 383 stroker crank from Callies. I am glad to hear that a bit of recession is normal. As I said, the 5mm number was a guess, it might be slightly less than that. I was just worried that the Callies crank was not 100% to GM crank spec and that it was keeping the HB pressed too far forward. Sounds like it's OK.
* My crank hub has a rectangular keyway in it. I had a machine shop grind the same keyway into a new harmonic balancer before I did the reinstall.
* I am assuming the factory harmonic balancers are zero balanced. Since I had my motor redone and forged less than a year ago the new balancer should be OK, the motor was balanced and blueprinted so my fingers are crossed for no wobbling or odd harmonics.
* I did get the old bolt torqued to 240 ft/lb (it actually stopped moving completely after about 190 ft/lb). I put PLENTY of red loctite on the new bolt and followed the tq to 37ft/lb then turn 140 degree method. Since the balancer and crank is keyed with a rectangular shape, I don't imagine the rotational force of the crank will work the bolt or balancer free.
Sounds like I'm good to go. A good thing too, because I had already put the rack back into place and wasn't largely in favor of taking it back out :-)
Thanks for all the replies, and merry Christmas to all. A couple of quick notes:
* My crank is aftermarket -- a 383 stroker crank from Callies. I am glad to hear that a bit of recession is normal. As I said, the 5mm number was a guess, it might be slightly less than that. I was just worried that the Callies crank was not 100% to GM crank spec and that it was keeping the HB pressed too far forward. Sounds like it's OK.
* My crank hub has a rectangular keyway in it. I had a machine shop grind the same keyway into a new harmonic balancer before I did the reinstall.
* I am assuming the factory harmonic balancers are zero balanced. Since I had my motor redone and forged less than a year ago the new balancer should be OK, the motor was balanced and blueprinted so my fingers are crossed for no wobbling or odd harmonics.
* I did get the old bolt torqued to 240 ft/lb (it actually stopped moving completely after about 190 ft/lb). I put PLENTY of red loctite on the new bolt and followed the tq to 37ft/lb then turn 140 degree method. Since the balancer and crank is keyed with a rectangular shape, I don't imagine the rotational force of the crank will work the bolt or balancer free.
Sounds like I'm good to go. A good thing too, because I had already put the rack back into place and wasn't largely in favor of taking it back out :-)
Great deal!!! I have a 4.0 Callies crank with the same keyway, but I could not find a shop locally that would put the same keyway in my stock pulley.
It was suggested to me by a machine shop to use 680 loctite on the cylinder of the crank before pressing the pulley on and that should stop it from spinning. They said te only bad thing would be getting it off. I would have to heat it up to atleast 250 degrees to get it off.
12-25-2004, 09:36 PM
#11
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 25,889
Likes: 0
Received 5 Likes
on
5 Posts
CI 3-5-6-7-8 Veteran
I have it in writing (shop manual) that GM uses weights in the crank pulley and the flywheel to bring the motor into final balance at final inspection, it's supposed to be internally blanced but isn't always that way. It specifically says that when removing or replacing the harmonic blancer you need to mark it's position, transfer any weights (or add the exact same kind in the same locations to the new one), and re-install it in the same orientation.
I just went through all this balance crap w/ my new clutch install... it's a huge PITA
I just went through all this balance crap w/ my new clutch install... it's a huge PITA
12-26-2004, 10:37 AM
#12
Supporting Vendor
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2003
Location: http://www.mphparts.com 800-364-1975
Posts: 6,486
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by Vince99FRC
Great deal!!! I have a 4.0 Callies crank with the same keyway, but I could not find a shop locally that would put the same keyway in my stock pulley. It was suggested to me by a machine shop to use 680 loctite on the cylinder of the crank before pressing the pulley on and that should stop it from spinning. They said te only bad thing would be getting it off. I would have to heat it up to atleast 250 degrees to get it off.
It was suggested to me by a machine shop to use 680 loctite on the cylinder of the crank before pressing the pulley on and that should stop it from spinning. They said te only bad thing would be getting it off. I would have to heat it up to atleast 250 degrees to get it off.The shop I used here in Fort Myers is called Advanced Machine Repair. Their minimum charge is $55 and that's what they charged to measure and grind the keyway. I am sure they'd be willing to do yours through the mail.
I am surprised none of the machine shops you went to up there were willing to key your factory balancer.
12-26-2004, 04:49 PM
#13
Safety Car
Originally Posted by diynoob
I would definitely use Loctite on the bolt, but I don't know about using it on the crank... keying the balancer and crank seems like a much more elegant solution.
The shop I used here in Fort Myers is called Advanced Machine Repair. Their minimum charge is $55 and that's what they charged to measure and grind the keyway. I am sure they'd be willing to do yours through the mail.
I am surprised none of the machine shops you went to up there were willing to key your factory balancer.
The shop I used here in Fort Myers is called Advanced Machine Repair. Their minimum charge is $55 and that's what they charged to measure and grind the keyway. I am sure they'd be willing to do yours through the mail.
I am surprised none of the machine shops you went to up there were willing to key your factory balancer.
01-05-2005, 11:21 PM
#14
Racer
Shop Procedure
Originally Posted by runamuk
Not to bash but I'd like to know where it says anything about orientation of the balancer in the shop manual?
The LS-1 and LS-6 engines are internally balanced and the Harmonic balancer can be installed in any orientation on the crankshaft, I know the flywheel has balance weights and must be reinstalled in the same orientation as it was removed but the harmonic damper doesn't matter
The LS-1 and LS-6 engines are internally balanced and the Harmonic balancer can be installed in any orientation on the crankshaft, I know the flywheel has balance weights and must be reinstalled in the same orientation as it was removed but the harmonic damper doesn't matter
The stock balancer and flywheel/clutch are zero balanced before assemble. The C5 engines are post-assembly fine balanced by inserting weights in the balancer and/or flywheel.
Take your stock Y-car balancer to the balance shop and you may or may not find that it is in balance. My '99 was off ~ 44 grams.
