0Y2K1 SS 5.0 THIS

So lately ive been thinking to myself how it seems like everyone is ragging on "shelf grinds" like the G5X3 etc and telling others how much better "custom grinds" are for every application... So I want an explanation on why they are so much better, especially since even the guys with stock heads are getting these lectures by others...
While youre at that im going to explain my views on things and I encourage you to analyze it and give your response...

As Most of you know, im a very large LG Motorsports cam supporter as ive installed many, and seen results of many... yet when threads pop up like "which cam for my combo" people instantly say "custom grinds are best NO MATTER WHAT!"... So I got to thinking didnt all cams start off as a custom grind for someone? The G5, G5X2, G5X3 and G5X4 were all at one time made for a given car... usually a stock head, bolt on, 4.10 gear ratio car... So figuring this, and theoretically speaking this custom grind, say the G5X3 in this case, was perfect for Joe's 1999 trans am with bolt ons, long tubes, 4.10s, stock heads etc. This cam is now a custom grind made for Joe... but soon after people see Joe's results and now want that cam for their car... which happens to be the same combo. Now this "custom grind" cam is still custom because it was made for Joe's car, but now Arnold wants the cam for his car... he just so happens to have the same mods Joe has on his 2001 camaro...
Now the explination... why is the G5X3 a bad choice for Arnolds car because it came off the shelf of Lou's shop? Its still a custom grind so to speak because at one time it was custom ground for Joe's car, and Arnold has the same mods... so techincally wouldnt it just still be that custom grind cam?
Then lets go further on that... hundreds of people run the G5X3 cam... and sure enough the majority have stock heads, bolt ons, and have LS1 based FBodies with similar gear ratios... So in theory isnt that cam also a "custom grind" for them as well? I mean they have the same car... what would Lou change to make the cam different if it worked so well for Joe in the first place with the identicle combos?

Now lets hop to the other side of the spectrum... For those who tell everyone "Custom grind is the ONLY way to go!"... Lets say you got a custom grind cam from XXX cam distributors made for your car... Now youre bragging to the whole world how your custom grind is the best ever made and it smokes the G5X3 because its custom taylored to your setup... Then Mary comes along and has that cam duplicated because she noticed in your sig she has the same combo as you and wants those numbers... Is your all-so-holy custom grind cam now an "Off the shelf" cam? I mean by most of your theories, the X3 is off the shelf because hundreds of people use it... now that your cam is in production and people with the same combos are using your cam, what does that make it?

Enjoy

0Y2K1 SS 5.0 THIS

Also this is more towards stock head cars... obviously those with strokers and head/cam cars are in a different ballgame due to the fact the engines can be EXTREMELY different!

0Jeff @ TPE

After reading your lengthy thread I realized you need to get your butt over to my thread "Is this the best cam choice" and tell me what cam I should use!!!

NOW---GO!!!!!!

ArKay99

I don't know why you think the G5X3 cam has been getting 'ragged on' lately. I have only seen great numbers, especially from the guys using that cam with AFR heads. I have to agree with you in that the term 'custom grind' is overused and misused. I'll give you an example.

BLACKTOP2000 has a 2000 FRC. His power mods are:
Vararam 1B, smooth coupler, LS6 intake, 28.8lb injectors, AFR 205's milled .024" mounted on .040" cometic gaskets, TPIS headers, RT cats, and Z06 titaniums. He also has a LUK Pro Gold clutch and Fidanza aluminum flywheel, and ASP UD pulley. His cam: Comp 224/228 .581"/.588" 114LSA +1. He put down 415rwhp and 398rwtq.

I have a 1999 FRC. My power mods are Vararam 1B, smooth coupler, p&p throttle body, LS6 intake, 30lb. SVO injectors, AFR 205's milled .010" mounted on .040" cometic gaskets, Kooks headers, high flow cats and xpipe, Corsa Indy's. I also have a 4.10 rear and SPEC stage 3 clutch and aluminum flywheel and ASP UD pully. I also have HArland Sharp roller rockers. My cam: Comp 224/228 .581"/.588" 112LSA +2. I put down 413rwhp and 396rwtq.

His cam was the cam AFR found made good power with their heads for that type of setup, and my cam was a cam I cam up with on my own. I didn't know about the AFR cam specs before I bought it and found out about the similarities after I spoke with Tony at AFR, who happens to be a a real stand up guy.

My cam makes more power and torque a little lower in the curve than BLACKTOP2000's, but the cars are very similar with almost identical performance.

We both thought the above outcome was very interesting and I thought it would be good to share.

7.0sc SuperVette

My view of the camshaft business is this:
You can go to say Comp Cams and they are a large cam company with a million stock lobes and sophisticated computer programs to calculate in a couple nanoseconds any intermediate grind that they don't have in their file for a new purpose. But you do not have the knowledge to pick a cam.

Further, they have enough experience with designing valve trains for all the usual engines (component weights/stiffness/springs etc.) that they can take a theoretical shot at a new configuration and come up with hardware very close and and test it on a model or the actual engine quite quickly.

Now, your local tuner doesn't have the equipment/time/money or knowledge to do this. So they work with the specialist i.e. Comp Cams or other specialists to develop a few grinds that consistently work well with the products they put out. That is a good thing!!!

What bothers me is the aura of mystery (marketing tool) that they create by not devulging the "specs" of their cams-rather giving them fancy names like QXt-B1, B2, B3, etc.

The purchaser and most tuners have little idea of just what the cam is or any intuitive feeling if it is in the right range for the job! The purchaser selects from the 4 (exclusive) cams that the tuner has "invented".

Granted that cams are very complex and vary so many ways i.e. if a cam is 224 duration, it can have lots of lifts, different lift rates and duration opening and closing, initial intake lobe angle relative to TDC, lobe separation angle, many types of initial ramps off the base circle (opening/closing) an infinity of velocity, acceleration, and jerk rates and any time you change the mass, stiffness, spring rates (variable or fixed), seat loads, etc., you now have to redesign the lobe in order to have THE best cam for the application. And we haven't even discussed metalurgy and materials compatibility.

We buy heads with valves, retainers, and SPRINGS installed and then add our cam, lifters, pushrods, rocker arms-ONE SPRING SIZE DOES NOT FIT ALL.

So if the QX B2 cam doesn't seem to do it, I guess the QX B3's gotta work. Does seem to make it simple if you don't know what you are working with and only have 4 choices. Maybe that's a good thing.

However there are lots of experienced people out there that have learned a thing or two and would like to have control of what they are paying for, and would like to have the satisfaction of doing their own selection, experimentation and innovation.

So I guess there is a proper place for tuner "designer" cams, and a company like Comp Cams that can give you anything you want, if you know what you want. Personally I rely on Andy!

Roy

IFLUBYU

Well said! (the whole thing, just didn't want to quote it all)

Maybe someone else came up with the specs, but who is doing the grinding? Probably CompCams. Comp did some pretty good testing with the LS1 and LS6, and came up with a pretty good selection of "off the shelf products" for milking good reliable power out of a mostly stock setup. Perfect for someone like me keeping a stock bottom end and stock heads (stock LS6 anyway).
That being said, the farther you get your setup from stock I think the more important it is to work with a tuner who has already built like setups and tuned them. If I was getting tuner, say "TVD", to build me a 421 iron block, I would tell them what kind of performance and drivability I wanted out of it, and take what they recommended. Then they call up Comp and order the grind, ain't nothing wrong with that.
If I am installing a cam for an eventual blower setup, and tuner "AAC" says "don't do a reverse split" or whatever, I think I better at least consider that advice. Don't think Comp did any tests with a D1SC on the motor!
Just making the point, the farther you get away from stock the more valuable the tuner's insight becomes.

As far as this practice of not divulging cam specs goes, I personally think it would be crazy to put something in my motor I didn't have the specs on. However, if people are buying it, and it's living up to claims, more power to them if they can live with that.

Here is the thing, I know what a 232/238 600/600 110lsa sounds like, and I know what a 244/250ish cam sounds like. If tuner "LGM" wants me to consider their product I need at least some kind of reference for comparison for objectivity. If you go with a claim that "is found to be very streetable/drivable", that is subjective. One persons "streetable" is another persons trip to the dentist to get your teeth re-straightened.

Not an expert, just my $.02

Ikester

There is no such thing as "best cam" for a vette. I really laugh hard at people who ask, "what is the best cam for the vette?" If there was such a thing, dont you think every vette owner will have it?

Cam selection is based on what you want out of your car and the rest of your setup. If you dont know what that is, leave your car stock. (hypotheticlly speaking)

7.0sc SuperVette

Roy

0Y2K1 SS 5.0 THIS

It wasnt so much getting ragged on as the cams are awesome... and they are pretty much all I use for cams... However I just found it ironic that a lot of people were jumping into the "which cam is best" threads only to go and say "custom grinds are always the best", when pretty much ever cam starts off that way! Some just get popular, and some dont get popular.

crainholio

First this:

And then this:

Everyone's ragging, nobody's ragging...

Everyone thinks your posts are incoherent.

Mike Mercury

interesting. In 1980 I took apart my new 1980 Vette to replace the cam. And that's the only item I changed. I had called Competition cams and told them exactly what I was wanting (more mid RPM grunt) and they had exactly what I needed in their catalog. It slid right in, worked perfectly. Drove it about 60,000 miles with that cam.

Then 2 years later I did the same for my fathers 400 Chevy big block. Competition Cams delivered an off-the-shelf cam that worked perfectly.
But that's easy for them to do - when it comes to a (mostly) stock motor.

I can't see takign a risk with a custom grind unless the motor is very unique, and there's nothing pre-made that would come close enough for the desired results.

Bink

There is Alot More to cam selection and grinding than Lobe profile, duration, LSA and lift -A Whole lot more!

I would leave it to the pros.....and by the pros I mean the guys whose life and livelihood are wrapped up in camshafts, valve events and Horsepower. My $.03.

0Y2K1 SS 5.0 THIS

Chris@East Coast Supercharging

I have tested the G5X3 in a variety of different combos such as stock LS1 headed cars, stock Z06's, With AFR heads and even stock A4's and have always gotton very good results with excellent street manors. Once you get the tuning down on this cam its really a great street cam.

Rob'sC5

I would say do some research. Your certainly not gonna learn everything about cams in 48 hrs but you can learn enough to make an informed decision based on what you want out of the car and what the tuner recommends.

USA-VET

busavette

G5x3 on a stock head LS1= 417rwhp.

gojo

Is this an issue? Have I missed something?

Bink

Not an issue with me...I don't think you missed anything

2KREDVert

All cams are "Custom" even the stock one has a custom design for that application.