silversport

you didn't wanna start a flame war and yet... :chevy :seeya

Chuck Harmon

This isn't the first time this question has been asked and it certainly won't be the last. The ZO6 is in my opinion the best Corvette ever produced. It has the greatest combination of drivability, acceleration, top end, and cornering while still offering marvelous creature comforts. But as one fortunate enough to have both an L88 and a ZO6, the L88, even in less than perfect tune when tested with power peaking at only 5300, still put considerably more horsepower to the ground than the potent ZO6. The L88 is good for more than the ~175mph top end of the Z, even with inferior aerodynamics. The difference would be much less if the Z were better geared.

I'm sure GM will likely offer a 475 net hp motor one day. Then I think they will truly say this is the most powerful Vette engine ever installed by the factory. Even so, I don't know that I will run right out and buy one. My present two are truly wonderful cars.

I love Corvettes. Each development, with the exception of the 1970's and early 80's, has brought exciting developments with very distinct personalities. You can choose the ones that you like the best. But all the pseudo experts on this subject will never convince me that the new ZO6 puts out more power than the L88. I know there are numerous cars both stock and modified that are faster or quicker than either of my Vettes. This will always be so with the exception of only 2 people that hold such a claim for an incredibly brief period of time.

I doubt that this post will change the minds of numerous folks that posted their opinions as to the power of the L88/ZL1's vs. the new ZO6. I leave it to the reader to determine the credibility of the claims of others that have never driven a L88, compared to one who owns and drives both.

Chuck
:cheers:

Bertrand

I've driven 454 big block vettes, 427s, 383s, LS1 c5s, a 1991 ZR1 and my current Z06. While some of the old vettes produce more all out power on the dyno, they don't come near the Z06 in overall 'athleticism'. The Z06 goes 0-60 in around 4 seconds (some say under), 0-100 in under 10 seconds, 0-160 in under 30 seconds, pulls one full G on the skid pad and has brakes that could cause 99% of cars on the road to rear end you if you really step on them. It does all this in completely stock form with orginial equipment tires and a full factory warranty, while still priced under 50K (with discounts) and widely available. There has never been a car this affordable, this available, and this responsive ever sold in the history of the automobile. If you disagree, I would like to hear about it. :yesnod: :yesnod:

One more point on the older vettes, I have been over 120 mph in both ZR1 and Z06 cars and felt completely comfortable doing so because of the great handling, brakes and aerodynamic qualities of both cars. I didn't get the same feeling driving the older vettes. Sure, it might be able to do 175 mph but I think you would have to get your head examined if you tried without first wind tunnel testing your car (you might just have liftoff!).

Just my opinion and I'm sticking to it. :cheers:

AP

Cool ... I thought the Z06 had the most HP?

Wilson6t7

Hey man, thats his car, and if you read his sig, a BADAZZ car. How can you call his car down? Its his opinion, and hes right about how some Z06 owners are pretty cocky, thouhg most of them aren't. Newbie versus Newbie. PLease dont bring his car into this. :nono:

Chuck Harmon

Bertrand,

But you have never driven an L88 have you? Like the new ZO6, it was a package car, not just an engine. It is a different animal from 390 horse 454's, even LS6 454's, c5's, etc. Over 150mph in any car is asking for it if not on a good track and the car triple checked. But remember, C3's were frequently raced at speed above 200mph without wings or other aero devices.

As I already said in my post above, the Z is the better car. The z's brakes and handling is better. But anyone who doubts the power of an L88 is naive. I think you would be more than a little surprised as to its overall ability on a road course as well. A simple design, with low center of gravity, with comparable weight and balance, coupled with over 520-550 horsepower is still a pretty good recipe. It sure makes for huge grins!

Chuck

no cure

oh puh-lease.
the number of even remotely stock C3's that were ever raced above 200 mph is exactly zero...

most any normal production street car can be turned into an incredible race car. I've seen enough Datsun 510's that would slaughter 99.9% of all the C5's on this forum, what does that prove. that comparing stock street cars with purpose built race cars is an invalid comparison..

I'd also be curious to have you find 1 driver reference that has gone near 200 mph in a stock bodied C3.
:)
lets keep it semi-real..

Chuck Harmon

No cure,

You asked, even though you sound obtuse, I forgive you and am happy to comply. I'm sure you'll want to move the goal posts again and come up with some other reason to doubt. Sore losers usually do!

Chuck

no cure

your sense of humor is hysterical :)

good joke

scan in an article re race cars competing in LeMans.

try reading the title of this thread.

btw - that nice pic of the vette sure looks like a stock street car, yup, I agree totally, you are right, okeydokey.. wonder if the windows roll up :)

too funny

Chuck Harmon

no cure,

You would think I was posting on a Viper Forum. Why do C5 owners have such a hard time accepting the racing/performance heritage of C3's. Yes it was a race car, that's what they call cars at LeMans, but the transmission, rear end, headers, intake manifold, rods, crank, heads, steering, springs, brakes, sway bars are all factory L88 pieces. The compression was reduced because of the lower octane fuel required at LeMans (comparable to today’s high octane no lead) and a shorter duration cam because of the lower compression.

Your original question before you moved the goal posts, as I expected you would do, was to name a single C3 going 200 mph. I did that. Do you see any Greenwood kits, rear wings, etc? No!

In all honesty, there is becoming less and less doubt as to why so many C5 owners have such a lousy reputation among other Vette owners. It would seem that they would have everyone believe that real Corvettes were not made before the C5. Man, I used to think Porsche owners were bad!

Chuck

Power Shifter

Chuck, Here's the problem, "the fastest stock corvette" is what the thread is about, and that's the Z06. What happens is we move off the subject. As I have said before I have very fond memorys of my BB vettes, but the unwilling nature of some to view past glory as past is geting old. Race preped or changed in any way is not and should not be the same subject. I have no illusion that the dissagrement will go away but facts are facts but your intitled to belive what you want. If you want to stire up a fuss go to the ZR1 board a point out you could order a big block with a rear that would blow the ZR1's 180+ top speed away;) Ric

no cure

I can't speak for "c5 owners", but for myself, I find this a painful "argument". I love corvettes, all corvettes, have been an enthusiast since my neighbor gave me a ride in his 65 roadster when I was but a boy. I've always had vette fever. I associate, have friends with, and enjoy the company of all year vettes, as well as all other cool high performance cars. I am not any kind of car snob. I enjoy Vipers, Porsches, etc, just as much as Corvettes, and generally speaking, all the owners are totally cool and there is an awesome cameraderie, especially at the race track.

however, that does not mean I am dumb nor blind. I am well aware of the race heritage of the vette, especially the c3 race heritage. and there certainly were some awesomely fast very capable C3's made, even bone stock, even on the joke of tires of the day. what does that have to do with not coloring history thru some obscure lens of wishful thinking? if we limit ourselves to "the facts", then it's plain that when only speaking of "normal, generally available factory stock street cars", that lets out the 3 mythical :) ZL1's, and makes the handful of L88's that were intended for street use non relevent. if we allow them, then we can call the LPE 427 TT a generally available factory stock street car.


if you think that the GM sponsored aftermarket racing program with the off road L88 parts is relevent to a discussion of "fastest stock corvette" than have at it. under your logic I can include any C5R parts that GM produces an call my C5 a "stocker".


no, again you are purposely distorting what I wrote, which I have not edited nor changed. I said "stock car". not race car. I know that a bunch of C3 race cars are capable of 200+ operation. no stock C3, especially with no body add ons, like that beautiful front splitter in the very nice article you took the time to upload (thank you!) has safe stability at that speed. much less with stock suspension. again, I don't enjoy arguing this, I get no pleasure out of putting down C3's. and I'm not putting them down. in their day they rocked. they're still beautiful and desireable. for the most part they're not "fast". even the 305 California special has it's place in the pantheon of corvette heritage..

"real" wasn't the discussion.
it was merely limited to "fastest stock corvette".
now P-car owners, there's a group you want to talk about... :)

peace & reality

Chuck Harmon

Power shifter,

Today, you can only get your Corvette with two power options, no gear options. It was not always so. In 69, you had 7 different axle ratios, 7 engines , and 4 transmissions, and 3 exhausts, to choose among. Just because the only place recorded top speeds were made were at a race tracks during a race, a very appropriate place I might add, should not invalidate the fact that they went faster than the ~175 mph of the ZO6.

Before the 70's, the fastest racing equipment came from the factories. That's what the L88 package was, a race car with license plates that you could add a roll cage to and go racing. It was in this same spirit that the ZO6 was made, but today has much more governmental involvement in its creation. Something not given much consideration in the late 60's. That is why the Z is so impressive. It is an incredible package of all 'round performance within such tight emission and mileage limits.

I don't know that any magazines at the time of the L88's that had the ability to test such high speeds. The Ohio Transportation Test Facility opened in the mid 70's that enabling many magazine top speed tests, but this was well after the high hp Vettes were produced. Chevy's tests at Milford stated 188 mph for a L88. Just because these test are old and few doesn't mean that they are no longer valid.

If I am looking for bragging rights and need the top speed claim for my self esteem, I guess I'm covered either way. But I do think it is hypocritical for fellow Vette owners boasting mods in their sigs to dis the L88 for not being a factory car. We therefore must agree to disagree
:cheers:

Chuck

no cure

this is wrong. not all rear axle ratios could be ordered with all engines/transmissions. the fastest top speed from a factory stock C3, with the highest revving motor and lowest rear gear was low 160's. and not many made like that. most C3's will not see the right side of 140.

top speed - until over coming wind resistance factors in - is merely a function of tire height, rpms, tranny gear ratio and rear end ratio. the early C3's with high revving motors did not have a trans gear to rev out.

this "argument" re top speed is such a moot point it's laughable to discuss in the context of "fastest stock corvette"..

peace & reality

Bertrand

Chuck, thanks for posting the cool article, which I enjoyed very much and for pointing out the diference between a good 427 or 454 big block and an L88. You make some good points and, like I said, I enjoyed all the vettes I have driven.

However, please keep in mind my comments where in the context of a 76 vette driver trying to start a flame with the Z06 discussion forum.

I simply felt the need to remind him that in real world or track performance driving involving anything but a straight drag strip, there is no competition. Also, please note my explicit mention that I would feel as comfortable doing high performance driving in a ZR1 than in my Z06 (hardly saying that real Corvettes were not made before the C5). The ZR1 is an amazing vette and, while it represents 10 year old technology that translates into less chassis stiffness, it is all the more impressive that this performance was available more than a decade ago.

Finally, keep in mind you're a C5 owner as well... Might not want to throw out the baby with the bathwater just because one or two C5 owners exercised their right to voice their opinions. :yesnod:

Either way, you have the best of both worlds. I checked out your web site and those are some nice rides. I like the sound recording! :cheers:


[Modified by Bertrand, 9:15 PM 6/15/2002]

Chuck Harmon

Bertrand,

Thanks for the post! :cheers:

Chuck

Power Shifter

Chuck, If you have read my posts you know I have no bone to pick with any vette enthusiast. The reality is what it is no matter my or your opinion. The C5's are "better" cars than the other C's in many many way's. I liked the big torke of the older cars also, but if that was enough by it self to make a car, I would have bought a viper or older big block vette. I thought about it and got a Z06. You have the best of both worlds with your cars, enjoy it. Race cars were never good street cars and that hasen't changed. ZR1's were over priced for what you got, so I bought a L98 coupe and put a LPE 420 in for less money and had a faster car, but it was not "stock". I agree with lot's of your point's but disagree with your conclusions of the "fastest" as deliverd. We both love vette's, it's not all bad to disagree. It would be a mistake to judge all C5 or Z06 owners because of this attitude some have of defending what thay have as the best,cars or intakes;) Ric