Mig233

Hey Everyone! I hope this is the right place. I was considering posting in the autocross tire forum, but I figured this is more suitable. But if I'm wrong, please feel free to move.

So I've been researching everywhere over the past couple weeks, and basically spent the whole day compiling possible tires for my new Z. I have a 2004 Z06 with the stock supercars and stock 17/18 inch wheels. I think I have narrowed it down to about 3 tires:

EXTREME CATEGORY
Hankook RS-3: 255/40/17 & 285/35/18
BFG Rival: 255/40/17 & 295/35/18

MAX CATEGORY
Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Position: 255/40/17 & 285/35/18


I also considered the Conti Extremecontact DW, but I feel that they would be letting the car down in terms of performance. My research has shown that they are a little mushy feeling, and that would bother me. Basically, here's my rationale: I'm 27, and bought this car because it was Chevy's race car. Therefore, I understood I was getting a rough riding, noisey car with sharp reflexes. So I don't want to put any sub-par tire on the car that would take away from the essence of the Z06. Coming from sportbikes, I never mess around in inclimate weather...including and especially cold. If it's raining/snowing/cold, then it is strictly transportation A to B.

OK, so ideally I would have PSS all around, but they don't have anything for my car unless I run 18s all around. I may do that in the future, but until then I will stick with the 17/18 setup. I may/may not do track days with this car. I probably will not do track days, but may do a HPDE. So for all intents and purposes, I am looking for a great street tire that can handle some track duty/serious twisties. If anyone rides sport bikes, I'm looking for the car equivalent of the Dunlop Q2. My priorities are 1) grip/responsiveness, 2) price, and 3) treadwear.

I want a tire that provides feedback and responsiveness (Corvettes aren't known for their steering feel, so I would like to help that as much as possible). I am not paying for new Michelin PS2s. I located some front PS2 tires, but can't seem to dig up any rears. I understand that there are no treadwear warranties with any of these tires. But I'm not putting on cup tires eithers. I think 20k miles is a reasonable expection for serious high performance tires. Does anyone have experience with any of these tires? Does anyone have any experience with this size set up? Are there any other tires that I am overlooking? I basically went tire by tire on TireRack to find sizes that would work...there aren't many options. Autocrossers/racers please chime in!

troyguitar

Toyo R888 275/40/17 and 305/35/18 would be pretty beastly.

I have run the Hankook RS3 tires on my old VW and they're very good for their category and price.

Dave02C5

I'm getting Nitto NT05's after I get my tax return

racebum

i have the pss in 295 30 19 and 265 35 18

wonderful tire, if you can spend the money on wheels go this way

if you can't get the nt05 in 275 40 17 and 295 35 18 OR get the rs3 in 285 35 18 and 255 40 17

s04 isn't that great of a tire

rival is suppose to be a good tire in the dry when warm but has wretched rain performance and is likely a disaster when it's cold. the rs3 is 97% of it in the dry and they cut through rain pretty well

getkong

First tires I put on my mostly stock 02 z06 were the nt05, and i didn't love them. They felt a little more slippery than the star specs i have on my wrx, and when went with a square setup, i replaced the rears with rivals. I don't drive in the rain or when it's that cold (because northern ca just doesn't get all that cold), so i didn't look into their performance for other than just dry and on track.

wtb-z

I have done both, although the RS3 was on 4 rear wheels and the Rival was on the OEM configuration. I think I prefer the RS3 but last time I checked they were on backorder as usual.

I am not sure what I would take as a street tire - the RS3 is quiet at the limit, vague and needs heat to be happy. The Rival on the other hand comes with no tread, no void area, and is pretty slidey at the limit.

I hated the RS3 for awhile but once I got used to it has been frustrating going back to the stiffer carcass tires. Lots of cars will chew up a soft tire but not the vette. The RS3's resistance to wear or heat cycling and reasonable starting tread are other big wins.

I have not worn the Rivals out but all the other extreme performance tires (RS3, XS, AD08) I have used have worn more or less the same, good for around 10-12 track days and 5k street miles.

Mig233

Thanks for the responses. Hmmmm, from everything I read, the S-04s are right up there with the PSS. They finished 2nd overall to the PSS in C&D's shootout. Have you or any of your friends tried them?

The Rivals are the newest, and I haven't found too much info yet. I'm interested in how long they will all last. As far as rain/cold…I will post up my review of the car soon, since I have put about 500 miles on it. I could not drive aggressively even if I wanted to. Today driving home from work I spun them up at 40 mph in 3rd gear. The worst new tire is going to be a drastic improvement over what I have. Point being that I do not mess around in the rain/cold. In these conditions my Z06 becomes a good looking Civic for me…just a means of transportation.

I have read a lot of people saying the same thing about the NT05. Also that grip really falls off after about 1/2 life. Good suggestions though. Keep em coming!

Awesome, thanks for the input! According to Tire Rack, the Rivals are supposed to wear better than most extreme category tires.

So, I'm thinking that 10-12 track days is probably about 12-15k miles worth of street wear…is that a fair assumption? If not, what would you estimate?

I spent the better part of the day chatting with tire rack, and they were mildly helpful. Basically, I wanted to know the criteria for "extreme" vs "max" categorized tires so that I could make the decision about which tire category to shop. For example, if extreme tires grip better…then how much better than a max tire? If extreme tires wear faster, then how much faster? Good info so far!

wtb-z

If you are really interested in performance Tire Rack does have good data that will look at how good a tire is as a street tire. But look at Grassroots Motorsports Magazine for more of a look on track performance.

The categories are sort of arbitrary so any statement about Tire Rack's "EP" summer vs "MP" summer vs "UHP" summer as classes are broad - it is useful to look at things on a tire by tire basis. A crappy EP tire like the NT05 and an excellent MP tire like the PSS are probably pretty close on the track.

That said:

Each step you take from "trended race tire" (RA1/R888/NT01) to EP to MP to UHP is probably worth about 1 to 1.5 seconds of lap time per minute of track. The handling differences will be noticeable. YMMV will vary depending on car, track, conditions.

With the MP/UHP tires manufacturers generally seem to do their due diligence and are offering something that an inattentive owner will not get into trouble with. The MP/UHP tires will at least sort of work at 45*F, offer reasonable standing water performance, start with a lot of tread, and won't have some of the void area disappear before the tire runs out of tread, and so on.

All bets are off with the EP tires, especially from the smaller brands. You're joking about lack of traction currently in the cold/wet but some of these tires are not even supposed to be stored below freezing, much less driven. I've used a bunch as streets and they work but you should to be aware of their limitations.


Personally, for a street car, an MP tire would be fine for me. The vette's limits are too high for the street anyway. It is also easy enough on tires that you can lightly track an MP/UHP summer tire and not have it get destroyed - for most cars that will be an issue.

racebum

this debate is why the pss is such a great street tire. when you consider all the angles like wet traction, 45deg traction, feel at the limit, treadwear and general feel in addition to warm dry tires it's always a give and take thing. the pss just does so many things so well. it's fast as hell in the rain, wears great, has stellar feedback and is close to the rs3 in the warm dry only losing out in higher heat track events.

as for the pss vs the nt05, warm limits are similar but i would be faster on the pss. it just communicates SO well and is extremely stable at the limit

Mig233

YES! I read in the C&D comparison test (http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...-sport-page-10) that the Yoko AD08 and the Toyo R1R had labels that warned they weren't even supposed to be stored in cold weather. That's insane! I'm obviously going to stay away from those. I'm not saying I need an EP tire, I'm just want to know the tradeoffs between the EP and MP tires. Some tires are so good (PSS) that they straddle the best of both categories. Before posting this thread I was kind of leaning toward the RS3s. They are cheaper than the Rivals and start with 9/32 tread. But it's very difficult to find tread wear data other than talking to the end users, although Tirerack claims that the Rivals have best in class tread wear.

But you're absolutely right about the arbitrary categories, and that's what's so frustrating. Talking to these reps, they can't even give much specifics. They talk about every tire in a category, as if they are the same tire.

Riding sport bikes, the best tires were the ones that heated up quickly, and didn't get greasy on the track…so I guess they had a soft but stable tire compound that had a decent tread life. That's something that I would want to put on the Z…does it exist?

Has anyone had any experience with the S-04 pole positions?

E-Emmons

Warning unpopular opinion:

My Z is my daily in NJ, and I drive it sun, rain, and snow. I track the z 6-8 weekends a year, used to ride sport bikes, have had cafe racers, and still ride motox. I'm saying all this because I think we might have similar expectations of the car and its duties. I do however have a track dedicated set of wheels and tires.

Seeing that your profile is a sport bike on track, you can probably push the envelope on motor vehicles and the rest of this is based on you having track experience. The more track oriented tire you use on your car, the more boring it will be to drive on street, or the more tickets you’re going to get and fast.

I've driven the vette with Vredsteins, 555RIIs, General Exclaim, falkiens, and firehawk wide ovals on street. Hands down the 555RIIs handled the best, and were by the far the LEAST fun street tire. The Z is so capable, that if you put on a top tier handling tire, it will be the most boring car you ever drive. In order to feel any excitement you’ll need to push the car to an extreme that is downright dangerous on the street. The Z can go thru a turn so much faster than a sportbike, and takes much more speed to get that fun feeling. You can pretty safely assume 2-3 times posted limits to start.

My experience in NJ is that a tire like the Conti DW or vredsteins are the best. They are still capable of pushing the car and creating excitement, but at the same time are fun year round, and useful for daily commuting.

The above is just another approach at it. For best handling at a great deal, I like the feel of Nittos compared to hankook or toyos. My brothers experience with RS3 is they started fantastic, and quickly heat cycled out and became rock hard on his daily when exposed to cold temps. They never came back and remained hard and greasy through the summer months.

NT05 would be my choice over RS3 for your original question. I have never ridden rivals, but two guys I track with use them and love them. Expect the above three tires to be toast next winter.

Mig233

You hit it right on the head…we are very similar. In fact, I may take the car out today just to see how it feels (6 inches of snow). Somerville is like 25 mins from me, we should meet. Was planning on meeting some local enthusiasts, but I was in no shape to make it to cars and coffee in Chester at 10am on New Years.

You make an interesting point. Once I hit the track with my GSXR, I barely rode the street…it got boring and dangerous. I don't want it to get to that point with my Z, but at the same time, I'm not exactly enjoying my car with these cement rollers either. They are downright dangerous right now…but not undriveable. That's why I am not overly concerned with cold/wet traction.

I will check out the NT05s…how long do you think they will last? My main gripe with the conti DW is the steering feel. I love the way this car feels switching lanes quickly…it is VIOLENT. I don't want to compromise that. I don't need/want a full on race tire, like you said. But I want something as close to the PSS as possible.

E-Emmons

You can drive the NT05s down to nothing and more, but they wont be any good if the conditions are bad. I would give them a year as useful in all conditions, then maybe only a good summer dry tire after that.

If you got a second set of rims, you wouldnt have to worry about it. A set of wagon wheels go for 100 a set ( cough cough craigslist in jersey right now ). They make a great winter rim and track rim.

You could get a set of NT05 or rivals now and use them all year / track days. When tread gets low put some cheap all seasons on wagon wheels. Use the wagon wheels thru winter months, Then after next winter, put the tire you buy now back on for summer again.

I personally will be buying new tires in two months for street use. I plan on going with the Sumitomo HTRIII 255 F / 285 R. They have decent reviews, and the tread pattern looks useful for different daily conditions we encounter in Jersey. but performance isnt my first priority on them.

I use Nittos on my dedicated track tires. 555RIIs or NT01s. They are not the fastest tires, but i like how nittos wear and how predictable they are at the limit. I typically dont do "meets" but i'm always around for a drive or come down for a track day. Track season starts april, and they run a lot at NJMP which most bike guys know well.

troyguitar

Even PSS are not actually very good on the track. Here's my car on 4 z06 rear wheels running PSS, had to go very slow in corners:



You really need track tires for track days IMO.

racebum

too much heat. the pss is really ideal in 50-150 deg operating temps

not the best all out open track tire as you'll over heat them....and you were carrying pretty substantial speed

they are an incredible street tire though

the rs3 can run hotter but as you say a person really is better off using the pss on the street and the cup tires or better on the track

racebum

the ad08 is a great tire but it's designed to have max bite around 200deg. tire compounds are usually temp specific depending on their make up. winter tires for example turn to mush on a 100deg day but bite much better than the average tire when it's 30deg outside. lot of silica in the makeup. no max or extreme tire is designed to be driven or stored in freezing temps. it's possible they can crack or harden

the biggest problem with oem z06 wheels is the lack of correct sizes.

the s04 is designed to be similar to the pss but it typically loses every single test against it. i guess it's the pss minus 20% i would imagine it's similar to the ps2 based on the test results i've read.

the rs3 seems like the natural choice since it does everything except cold weather. the only thing the s04 may have over it is a longer treadlife IF you can manage to not slide around and do burn outs

Mig233

Good advice. Why would anyone buy PS2s when all these choices I'm considering will run between $850 and $1100?

GetKong: How do you like the Rivals on the back? How are they wearing? How long did your NT05s last? It's a shame none of the Dunlops would fit. NT05s are a decent price, so I am adding them to my list as well.

I'm always down for a cruise when the weather gets warmer. NJMP is like a second home to me…I love hearing the cars/bikes ripping down Lightning as soon as I get through the main entrance. I doubt I will be doing any track events this year, but I'm def going to try to do a few parking lot HPDEs.

I was totally leaning toward the RS3s until Emmons mentioned that they are out of stock. I'm going to ask tire rack how long.

dagon138

I drive NT05's all year round. No track use, limited Daily-driver.
But I'm in SoCal and it's 77F right now.

I honestly don't remember the mileage, but it was surprisingly good. They do tend to get more road-noise as the mileage builds in my experience if that matters to you.

rjwz28

If I had the stock wheels, I would run rear wheels all around on staggered PSS tires

Mig233

I wish they made Star Specs or Direzza ZIIs in the stock Z size. How are the rivals treating you? According to Tire Rack they have the best wear characteristics of any extreme tire. I would like to try them, but 7/32 tread depth might be a little overkill for my needs.

I've considered that, but right now I don't want to add an extra $200-$300 dollars to tires that would already cost an extra $300 over what i'm considering. Perhaps in the future…depending on how long I keep this car. I also looked at those wagon wheels…again another good option if I keep the car for multiple years.

Interesting. I did a lot of reading yesterday for comparisons between the Potenza S-04 and the NT05. These two are at the top of my list right now. I'm really leaning toward the S-04 Pole Positions, especially given their price. Right now I can get a set of 255/40/17 and 285/35/18 for $800 shipped to my door. That's ContiDW money for a tire that hangs with the PSS/PS2. Based on surveys, people seem pretty happy with the S-04s.

Dragon: To me, it's all a trade off. All things equal between two tires, would I care about road noise: Yes. But if the NT05s handle/grip/feel/wear better, but are noisy…It's a no brainer for me. Like I said earlier, I'm looking for a tire that gives great steering feel and grip, will last about 20k miles, and won't cost $1500 (Basically I want a PSS that fits my wheels). I want to have the Z06 experience when I drive the car, you know what I mean? If it comes down to splitting hairs, I would try to go with the newer tire. I take purchases like this seriously. Tires are not chump change, and I don't want to have to live with a mistake every day until they wear out.

Where's the best place to buy Nitto's? Can you provide any more details about the NT05? Nitto doesn't normally show up on comparison tests, so I had to search forums for reviews. I read a lot of mixed opinions about them. Basically from what I gather, the NT05 is better than the INVOs except in the rain. Has anyone driven the NT05s and the S-04s?