[Z06] Dreaded yellow springs..
10-08-2014, 10:22 PM
#21
I don't race my car, and it is stock. Too me 1% of all c5Zs have this problem--not worth replacing the springs IMHO.
If I decide on headers and other bolt-ons in the future, I will do the springs.
10-08-2014, 10:26 PM
#22
I'm not siding in either direction, I'm just giving another view...
I asked the corvette shop I take my cars to and who has over 15 years experience about the issue. His comment was this... I have never seen a spring failure on a stock car used as a street car. The only time he has seen the issue was on cars with drag radials that are always bumping against the redline or tunes that increase the rev limiter.
GM designed the car with a specific RPM cut-off for a reason. And we all should know that GM builds their cars with only a slight buffer.
The C7 was built properly, but the C5 ,while a great performing car, was build still on a budget. That is why the stock clutch and brake rotors car just barely handle the car stock with just a tiny buffer.
I have had 3 C5 Z06s 01', 03, 04 and none had any spring issues, granted I didn't keep any of them over 30k mileage.
I didn't buy into the Internet hype with regards to the head/valve issues on the LS7 and a few years ago I purchased an 09' C6 Z06 with 7k miles and it ended up blowing the exhaust valve before I had 10k miles on it.
Do I think the spring issue is as big of an issue as the valve issue on the LS7, no I don't think so, but I think I will do the spring change on my upcoming 02' Z06 with 8,800 miles on it because it really is cheap insurance.
Am I going to do it right away as soon as I get the car, probably not, but it is something I plan on doing within the next year.
I asked the corvette shop I take my cars to and who has over 15 years experience about the issue. His comment was this... I have never seen a spring failure on a stock car used as a street car. The only time he has seen the issue was on cars with drag radials that are always bumping against the redline or tunes that increase the rev limiter.
GM designed the car with a specific RPM cut-off for a reason. And we all should know that GM builds their cars with only a slight buffer.
The C7 was built properly, but the C5 ,while a great performing car, was build still on a budget. That is why the stock clutch and brake rotors car just barely handle the car stock with just a tiny buffer.
I have had 3 C5 Z06s 01', 03, 04 and none had any spring issues, granted I didn't keep any of them over 30k mileage.
I didn't buy into the Internet hype with regards to the head/valve issues on the LS7 and a few years ago I purchased an 09' C6 Z06 with 7k miles and it ended up blowing the exhaust valve before I had 10k miles on it.
Do I think the spring issue is as big of an issue as the valve issue on the LS7, no I don't think so, but I think I will do the spring change on my upcoming 02' Z06 with 8,800 miles on it because it really is cheap insurance.
Am I going to do it right away as soon as I get the car, probably not, but it is something I plan on doing within the next year.
Last edited by Blackkaz04; 10-08-2014 at 10:49 PM.
10-08-2014, 10:41 PM
#23
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I got it from a Chevy dealer that had it listed as used, I made the condition of the sale that they certify it. Good thing they did too, I ended up lemon lawing it.
That wasn't even all of the issues that I had either. In the 3K miles that I had the car, the clutch took a dump on my in rush hour traffic on the freeway. I had to call 911 to get towed out of the middle of the freeway.
Add to that rotors that warped, and a few other issues that I can't recall anymore and it was by far the worst car experience I have ever had.
Oh, and before I lemon lawed it, GM rebuilt the whole top end and within 1K miles, it was going thru 1 qt of oil every 50 miles or so, I totally lost all oil pressure at one point and had to have it towed to GM.
All this with a car with 10K total miles on it.
It ruined the C6 Z06 and the LS7 for me. I will never go near either again.
10-08-2014, 10:48 PM
#24
in short
you're not the sharpest tack in the box
you're looking for reasons to defend a position you have convinced yourself is true
on this forum alone, and think of how small of % of z06 owners that is, multiple failures over the last ten years have taken place, i have personally seen one myself and i've only known a handful of z06 owners. the reason the springs fail is well documented, GM had a supplier in most of 02 and early 03 that was using sub par metal and some of the springs were made with impurities that led to stress fractures. when that happens it can sometimes harm nothing and sometimes break cylinder liners, both cases have happened.
if a $65 dollar set of springs is too expensive for you, you might consider a different car
you're not the sharpest tack in the box
you're looking for reasons to defend a position you have convinced yourself is true
on this forum alone, and think of how small of % of z06 owners that is, multiple failures over the last ten years have taken place, i have personally seen one myself and i've only known a handful of z06 owners. the reason the springs fail is well documented, GM had a supplier in most of 02 and early 03 that was using sub par metal and some of the springs were made with impurities that led to stress fractures. when that happens it can sometimes harm nothing and sometimes break cylinder liners, both cases have happened.
if a $65 dollar set of springs is too expensive for you, you might consider a different car
For many years now, I have managed major projects for companies and the Air Force. I've also taught project management at the university level, too, for those students going for the master's degree in that discipline.
Risk management is a critical factor to be considered in any project. I had a project. It was to find a good Z06 and buy it. As a project manager of that project, you needed to address risk in its components. For me the only concern was the valve springs. Here's a basic outline of how that works.
1. Identify the risk event in objective and realistic terms.
2. Determine the probability that risk event will occur.
3. Determine the impact if the risk event occurs.
There are four main ways to address risk, which is also called uncertainty in project management. They are:
1. Ignore it - if and when it happens, react to it and address its impact
2. Mitigate it - this is a trade-off with spending money to address it when it may never happen. This is balancing reality on how much to spend to offset a potential occurrence.
3. Accept it - Passive acceptance - whatever will happen, will happen. Active acceptance - build a contingency by setting aside a reserve pool of funds. (The "Praeto Principle" (80-20 rule of thumb) applies here - 20% will occur, 80% will not.)
4. Transfer it - move the risk to another person or company if possible. For example, buy insurance.
Selecting the right action to address risk depends on two factors - the probability the event will occur and its impact in terms of dollars.
For me, owning a C5Z, the recommended course of action for a project manager is "Active Acceptance" of building a contingency, reserve pool of funds in the unlikely event the risk occurs. The fact remains is the documented failures are about 2%. The cost is more than $65.00, I factored about $600. I would bet that only about 10% of ALL C5Z owners would feel comfortable doing the work themselves.
Following some basic rules in project management allows the project manager to act in an objective, realistic manner and avoid making decisions built mainly on subjectivity and fear of the unknown.
Good luck.
-not the sharpest tack in the box
Last edited by Blackkaz04; 10-08-2014 at 10:51 PM.
10-09-2014, 05:45 AM
#26
Melting Slicks
Selecting the right action to address risk depends on two factors - the probability the event will occur and its impact in terms of dollars.
For me, owning a C5Z, the recommended course of action for a project manager is "Active Acceptance" of building a contingency, reserve pool of funds in the unlikely event the risk occurs. The fact remains is the documented failures are about 2%. The cost is more than $65.00, I factored about $600.
For me, owning a C5Z, the recommended course of action for a project manager is "Active Acceptance" of building a contingency, reserve pool of funds in the unlikely event the risk occurs. The fact remains is the documented failures are about 2%. The cost is more than $65.00, I factored about $600.
10-09-2014, 10:00 AM
#27
Sounds like you convinced yourself to save a few hundred dollars. When you did your risk analysis did you consider the cost if the broken spring takes out the block with it? You do know that LS6 engines are no longer available? I think you are denying the potential impact. 2% is a pretty high failure rate... every 1 out of 50 cars....
Read my previous post. Active acceptance was/is my course of action.
10-09-2014, 02:36 PM
#28
Instructor
What is the typical ball park price to have a shop install the new valve springs, exhaust seals.intake seals and valve cover gaskets? I think I am just going to go that route and save myself a headache. I am mechanically inclined but new to Vettes and V8's for that matter.
Any other things to replace while they are in there? Plugs and wires perhaps?
Any other things to replace while they are in there? Plugs and wires perhaps?
10-09-2014, 03:59 PM
#29
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What is the typical ball park price to have a shop install the new valve springs, exhaust seals.intake seals and valve cover gaskets? I think I am just going to go that route and save myself a headache. I am mechanically inclined but new to Vettes and V8's for that matter.
Any other things to replace while they are in there? Plugs and wires perhaps?
Any other things to replace while they are in there? Plugs and wires perhaps?
I called a local performance shop near me and they quoted me 2.5 to 3 hrs.
I sourced out the parts from GM Parts Direct, and I came to a total of ~$550 (includes parts, labor, plugs, and wires)
10-09-2014, 06:20 PM
#30
Race Director
That's a really good price for parts & labor. Many people have reported paying $800 or more for the job. I did it myself and took me a good 8 hrs. That was my first time working on an ls engine and I really took my time. That was plugs, wires and springs using the compressed air method.
10-09-2014, 06:45 PM
#31
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That's a really good price for parts & labor. Many people have reported paying $800 or more for the job. I did it myself and took me a good 8 hrs. That was my first time working on an ls engine and I really took my time. That was plugs, wires and springs using the compressed air method.
I sourced all the parts from GM Parts direct website last night.
I think labor is about right on for a professional shop, 2.5 to 3 hrs. Not sure if it makes a difference but the shop I got the quote from works on race cars and is involved with SCCA racing, so they know their stuff.
10-09-2014, 06:52 PM
#32
Race Director
Wow, that is a lot. Did you special plugs and wires?
I sourced all the parts from GM Parts direct website last night.
I think labor is about right on for a professional shop, 2.5 to 3 hrs. Not sure if it makes a difference but the shop I got the quote from works on race cars and is involved with SCCA racing, so they know their stuff.
I sourced all the parts from GM Parts direct website last night.
I think labor is about right on for a professional shop, 2.5 to 3 hrs. Not sure if it makes a difference but the shop I got the quote from works on race cars and is involved with SCCA racing, so they know their stuff.
10-09-2014, 09:41 PM
#33
Some people think it only costs $65
10-09-2014, 10:02 PM
#34
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Even at $550 though, I think its cheap insurance. I had decided to just go ahead and do mine when I get my other stuff done in the next month or so. Be done with it and get it out of my mind.
10-09-2014, 10:21 PM
#35
Race Director
if you have sex with a girl who has HIV you have a 1/1000 chance of getting it
by your own calculations of 1% which is probably fairly close to accurate you're at 1/100
you want to bone some girl bare with HIV? lower odds than the spring breaking you know
replacement costs on the engine if you crack a liner....and that happens often enough to consider it would be around 8000-9000 for an ls3 and the install, even if you source a used ls6 for 3000 you're at 2000 for labor, maybe a bit less, making it a 5000-9000 risk, or $100 in springs and seals and 2-3hrs of labor, even at $100 an hour shop rate that's $400 total vs a risk of 20x that
it would be one thing if they only failed racing or under stress..but they don't. it all depends on the luck and level of impurity in the spring, many have broken cruising down the freeway, some at idle
the reason i was an ******* about this before was fairly simply, it's to drive home how silly the risk is, not to mention the mental worry all over a few hundred dollars
10-10-2014, 08:34 PM
#37
Instructor
I called up a local speed shop and the GM guy recommended to replace the pushrods too while he was in there. He said a set it around $120 for hardened pushrods. Good idea to do so? Thanks
10-10-2014, 09:03 PM
#38
Melting Slicks
i did the springs on mine, they were $65, valve seals $40, new cover gaskets $20, new spark plug wires $45 and new plugs $50
if you have sex with a girl who has HIV you have a 1/1000 chance of getting it
by your own calculations of 1% which is probably fairly close to accurate you're at 1/100
you want to bone some girl bare with HIV? lower odds than the spring breaking you know
replacement costs on the engine if you crack a liner....and that happens often enough to consider it would be around 8000-9000 for an ls3 and the install, even if you source a used ls6 for 3000 you're at 2000 for labor, maybe a bit less, making it a 5000-9000 risk, or $100 in springs and seals and 2-3hrs of labor, even at $100 an hour shop rate that's $400 total vs a risk of 20x that
it would be one thing if they only failed racing or under stress..but they don't. it all depends on the luck and level of impurity in the spring, many have broken cruising down the freeway, some at idle
the reason i was an ******* about this before was fairly simply, it's to drive home how silly the risk is, not to mention the mental worry all over a few hundred dollars
if you have sex with a girl who has HIV you have a 1/1000 chance of getting it
by your own calculations of 1% which is probably fairly close to accurate you're at 1/100
you want to bone some girl bare with HIV? lower odds than the spring breaking you know
replacement costs on the engine if you crack a liner....and that happens often enough to consider it would be around 8000-9000 for an ls3 and the install, even if you source a used ls6 for 3000 you're at 2000 for labor, maybe a bit less, making it a 5000-9000 risk, or $100 in springs and seals and 2-3hrs of labor, even at $100 an hour shop rate that's $400 total vs a risk of 20x that
it would be one thing if they only failed racing or under stress..but they don't. it all depends on the luck and level of impurity in the spring, many have broken cruising down the freeway, some at idle
the reason i was an ******* about this before was fairly simply, it's to drive home how silly the risk is, not to mention the mental worry all over a few hundred dollars
you sir are a bonehead
10-10-2014, 09:16 PM
#39
Race Director
With the stock cam and stock springs I don't think there is any need to change the pushrods. I didn't and don't recall anybody around here saying they replaced them while swapping out springs on the stock cam. Plus a bent pushrod isn't going to cause an engine failure like a broken spring can. I'd save that $ for other mods.
10-10-2014, 10:21 PM
#40
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With the stock cam and stock springs I don't think there is any need to change the pushrods. I didn't and don't recall anybody around here saying they replaced them while swapping out springs on the stock cam. Plus a bent pushrod isn't going to cause an engine failure like a broken spring can. I'd save that $ for other mods.