Kal

Well first off let me say, I was sooo excited about getting a Z. I had one all picked out from http://www.corvetteking.com and was already GMAC pre-approved. I love the way the car looks, so awesome. One of the best looking cars on the road for sure. I really fell in love with this car from the looks and magazine stats so I am going to try and be as impartial as possible. But here is the scoop:

I have been looking for a nice, respectable sports car to drive daily for a few months. It basically came down to a new Z06 and a ultra low milage MKIV Supra. Both very capable cars within similar price range. What I didn't like about the supra was I had to pay around $40,000 to find a low mileage one that was in mint or near mint condition. For a car that was $40,000 new 5 years ago that is just too much money! But now I understand why. There were only 6000 mkiv supras made in all. Only half of them twin turbo. That leaves 3000. I'm willing to bet at least 1/3 of them are gone for various reasons. That leaves about 2000 cars. So very small selection to pick from. This is also why the Supra holds such a strong resale while the Vette drops fast. Just a matter of supply and demand vettes are made daily and I see tons of them in the area of my work, hell 3 are in my company parking structure. Anyway, I wanted to test drive one to make sure it was what I wanted, I read the reviews, saw the stats and boy I loved the looks so here is what happened.

After a bit of haggling with the local dealer to let me drive it I finally got my chance. I wanted to make sure it was what I wanted before I put the big bucks down. I sit inside and instantly my head pushes hard against the roof. Hmm I lower the seat play with the adjustments back and forth. No way to make it work. I try and try I simply can't sit up right in this car!!!! If I put the seat way in the back gangster style I fit but other wise I don't (and who wants to drive like that anyway?) Looks like I am not too tall for this car. I am about 6'2, tall but not unusual at all by american standards. First off, let me say, WTF? America's true die hard sports car, the heart beat of America and me being typical American (Some of the tallest people on earth) can not fit into their car? My previous car was a little 1993 Toyota MR2 turbo a little 2 seater mid-engine and I fit fine in that, a little tight but no clearance problems, just comfy. In the many Supras I have driven I fit like a glove more then enough room. But in the vette I can't fit at all, not even close I have to tilt my head forwar just to sit with the proper driving position. How can this be? Someone please answer what GM was thinking. Japanese people are on average 5'6 tall (men) and they make a interior dynamic enough to fit a large american like myself, yet the american thoroughbred flagship sports car that is quite large on the exterior does not... interesting? I plan on writing GM a complaint letter about this one. Hopefully with the C6 they will think about us. I looked it up and 15% of men in the US are over 6'1. So about 1 in 6 1/2 men can not drive a Z comfortably. Can any 6'2+ guys comment on this or are there NONE on this board? I can't imagine who would buy a Z with such a horrible fit at that height. So to continue...

I sit in the car and the seats are the least sporty seats I have ever sat in for any sports car. Comfortable yes, sporty? NO! Not even close. Nice for a cavalier but a $50,000 sports car? Now the buttons, not well laid out and the plastic feel is horrendous and cheap. No different then a cavalier. The radio? Doesn't sound much better either. And whats up with that huge door handle? Is it for blind people to find in the dark? Not to mention it felt very flimsy, so flimsy I was afraid over time it will break for sure. Overall the interior is just not very good, but "It's Okay" I tell myself, I'll over look this detail for the performance is fantastic... you can't have it all for 50K. What was that smell too? Not like a new car but more like glue. The smell was even more intense on a Tahoe that was on the lot. Now lets move on.

I get the car and start it up. The whole car moves and the LS6 snarls up. Wow Impressive. I play with the HUD and I like that a lot too. Very cool feature, I wish more cars had it. I rev the exhaust and I'm surprised how loud it is for stock. But thats cool. I roll down the window and listen to it and it makes this blobbery popping sound. What is that? That doesn't sound very tuned. To me 1/2 the importance of the car is the sound and I didn't like how this one sounded. My friends 01 WS6 sounds 100% better.

Now the drive... I pull it out and I'm surprised how grippy and strong the clutch is. Awesome. I pull the car on to the street and go easy just to get a feel for how the car cruises. I was honostly expecting more low end. I guess the LS6 cam has to compramise on the low end as I wasn't impressed at all with the sub 3000rpm characteristics of the car for a 5.7L V8. I wasn't expecting viper explosive low end (Something I loved about the viper) but I was expecting something some what close as the z06 had 29% less displacement but 10% less weight too. The exhaust was kind of annoying driving around, mainly cause it had this bubbly burlly sound constantly driving it around. In this respect I like the sound of quite a few other V8's. Even if it were just as loud as long as its music to my ears then fine but no this was not the tweaked/tuned sound I like to hear. I can see this really starting to bother me after a few thouand miles of ownership. Perhaps a nice aftermarket exhaust aleviates this tho probably at the expense of a lot more noise then I would care for a daily driver. Another thing I didn't like was the super long shifts and the shifter position. Just wasn't the most comfortable and best placed shifter and the throws were HUGE. I don't know what chevy was thinking but this thing is down right school bus-ish throws. A short shifter is a MUST (and as I see a popular mod). But even then the gates on the Z are not very crisp feeling but rather sloppy tho the tranny did shift very nice I'll give it that. But who knows for how long, tranny problems are rampent on this forum and the corvetteforum forum.

Now for the power/braking/handling. I was lucky to have a 21 year old salemen riding shotgun who had never ridden on a Z and he wanted to see what the car would do just as much as me. I jump on the gas and the car really takes off hard in 1st and 2nd gear. I must admit here that the LS6 compramise in low end is well worth the top end. The best way I can describe it is explosive. Compared to the viper I must say I think the car is faster to 60-70 then the viper. For the rest of the power band its damn close, too close to call even. I jab on the brakes, very solid feel here too. Very solid. The best brakes I have found in any american car ever. I find a smooth street corner and toss it around and this car really sticks however I fail to get a "feel" for the car. I can't tell when its about to break loose or what exactly the car is doing. This aspect of it is something that the Supra also lacks in tho not quite to such an extent. The viper was also the same way. Seems like it is hard to build a heavy car and still have it give a lot of feed back tho the Z06 is really pretty light considering. The only car I have ever driven that could communicate to the driver exactly what the car is doing and what its about to do was the 996 twin turbo. The 996 inspired a lot of confidence in a average driver like me. Sure the Z is a varacious compeditor on the road course but you put a average driver in the Porsche and he will turn better times for quite a while guranteed. Tho the handling of the Z was all there it was lacking the driver aspect of it. I failed to have the "oneness" feel in the car. The extension of the body feel. This may develop in time with a lot of track time but it is not inate in the car at all. So all those guys who think your crazy to pay $110,000 for a 996 twin turbo. If you have the money this is the car to get. If you simply don't have the money then what can you do, at least you get the performance and heart stopping looks in the Z. Is the 996 TT twice the car? In short yes. Anyone who has driven this car hard (I rented one for a day) will tell you nothing comes close in the driver experiance an solidity of this vehicle. The way the seats feel, how the car feels, the german solidity, the silky smooth yet violant power delivery. The crisp oneness handling the car gives you and the highway stability all the way to 185mph. America has a long way to go on this aspect.

Now my biggest gripe of all was the overall quality of the car. The interior pannels in the trunk did not line up one one side, I coudl see excess silicone gouped into the rubber window sills. When driving I could hear quite a rattle in the rear. I asked the salesmen what it was and he said its common and vettes and part of the experiance. What a joke. Rattling car part of the experiance?? Umm okay. I am honostly terrified of what will happen to this car over time and then I stumped upon this web page:
http://www.geocities.com/jla_enterpr...ceHistory.html

I know the oil consumption issue was fixed but still that is a LOT of stuff. And when you look through the history on corvetteforum.com make no mistake. These cars have a LOT of problems, A LOT. Search through yourself if you don't believe me. The quality of these cars are very very very low. Here is something that makes the Supra golden. I have known MANY MANY MANY supra owners. You can search on the forums too. These cars even with mild mods are incredibly durable and reliable. The only time they start to break is when people really start to mess with them. From the factory there hasnt' ever been as much as a recall on these cars. THat says a LOT.

All in all the Z does offer incredible performance an looks but the car is really really lacking in other places. Quality control, interior design, and a bit more refinement is where GM needs to concentrate on the C6. Some of you might say "I don't like refined, I like BRUTE American Muscle" well don't confuse refinement with poor build and design. You can have all that without having a lot of the really annoying GM look overs (The lack of a partition for example). The C5 overall is light years ahead of the C4 and if the C6 makes just a good a jump then the C6 will be one hell of a car and will take a lot of money out of foreign pockets but untill then the Vette is still not on par with over seas compeditors overall. IF all you want is performance then sure but if you want anything else, forget about it. I am looking forward to evaluating the C6 in the future.

Now the Supra Comparison (Common Debate). I went straight from the z's driver seat into my friends newly bought and completely stock 30,000 mile 6spd supra and took it for a long drive to do a side by side comparison while the Z was fresh in my mind. I sit inside and close the door and the door makes a very solid sound. The first thing I notic is the interior/seating position/instrumentation is clearly better designed. The overall apperance is a lot more asthetically pleasing and "Cleaner". The dash board isn't quite in your face either but rather more elgantly wrapped to give more room. I start her up and I can barely tell she's on. Now for many of you this is something I'm sure you will not like. This car is a little too luxery oriented for a sports car in my opinion. It is not the best of the LS6 at start up and drive raound. It is simply smooth and lexus like. Not very sporty in my opinion but I'll take this for every day driving then loud burgling/burping from the rear everywhere I go. I put my hand on the shifter and everything just feel so right in terms of seating position, shifter location, and steering wheel location. I pull it out and I can clearly feel the difference in solidity of the vehicle. Driving it around the Supra with the factory sequential setup has pretty good low end. IT doesn't have the V8 torquey throttle tip in "kick" but I would venture to say it goes through the gears driving about at low rpm with part throttle just as well. Floor the Supra and the car smoothly builds up speed like the milinium falcon. The car is quite quick stock and with the "Bpu" mods will definately pull through the Speedo just as fast as the Z however ti will never have the explosive instant on power of the Z. IF this is a must have in a car then you simply will not find this in the supra. The merging around traffic and blowing past cars is done in a much easier manner in the Z then the Supra. The supra simply needs more time and a down shift to go into bullet mode while the Z is always ready at the tip of the gas. Now there is something about the Supra that I have failed to find in most other vehicles (Tho the 996 TT was pretty close but not even that was on par) is the high speed nature of this car. This car BEGS to be driven at very high speeds and it does not scare the driver at all. INfact you can go 120 in the supra and your not at all scared to lift. INfact the car begs you to go faster. IT is smooth and planted and accelerates with the smoothness of the millinium falcon deep into the tripple digits. Mario Anretti himself comment on this aspect of the supra and it is something that clearly states the Supra is built for the highway. I got the z06 up to 100 on the city street and the car was not nearly as "assuring" so to say. If you take a Z with intake and exhaust headers and a supra with intake exhaust downpipe and boost controler (something thta can be made for $15). Its only a matter of time before the Supra passes the Z. That is for sure. The brakes on the Supra are good but from the Supra's I have driven they are not as good as the Z. The Z takes it here. Now as far as handling goes the Z wins it here by a lot. The supra clearly needs a performanc alignment and a coil over suspension to keep up with the Z in the corners and even then there is no replacement for the active handling. If you want a car that can turn the Supra simply won't turn with the Z untill a lot of rubber and a road race suspension/alignment is put on the Supra.

The vette has TWICE the looks of the Supra in my opinon and if you want to impress others the Supra is not the car. While many people will say "nice car" its not WOW like the Z. However the Supra is a lot more rare and many people don't even know what it is so if you want a car that is not seen everyday the it has that edge over the Z (which to mots people is just like any other vette). All in all tho I find the supra a much more pleasurable car to drive. With basic mods the supra will be just as fast (Given that power delivery is quite different between the two) but even considering that I still prefer the supra's smooth power delivery and extreeme stability at any speed. Just the overall experiance in the Supra is that of a more expensive vehicle that is much more driver friendly. But if you need that performance there is no way to get it out of the Supra stock. This car came out almost 10 years before the Z and you simply can't make up for such a huge deffict without mods. BPU, coil over suspension, and Stop tech brakes are in order for the Supra to match or exceed the Z's in box performance. However since the Supra is cheaper then the Z by about 10,000-15,000 even for a very clean low milage one you can eaisly do all this within budget and then some. Overall you will have a better car in the supra in that it will be much more reliable and driver friendly with similar or better performance (But yet lacking that instant V8 punch something you simply have to live with). The quality is assured in the Supra and this is not a car you will have to worry about at all for dealer service and recalls. Most maintance is easily performed at home too. In the end when you sell the Supra it will fetch less of a money loss then the Z that is a fact. There will always be a better and newer vette, but the Supra will always be something special that can't be found anywhere else. So investment wise the Supra is a better car there too. Really comes down to dealing with the less in your face "butch" aspects of the vette and the power delivery for a lot more quality and refinement. The performance is right there in both (and both will bring most ferrari's and most porsches to their knees) . Anyway this is long and probably a lot of it doesn't flow too good but hey I got it all out...hopefully people will have some interesting comments.

TRR

Dude, please buy the Supra :yesnod: As for your post :bs


TRR

FLYNLO

Dude, you might get more feedback if you edit that thing. I haven't read it all the way through but I might some day when I find some time. Maybe get rid of the lesson on Supply and Demand to start with. Anyway, sorry things didn't work out for you. Enjoy your next purchase whatever it may be.

70lt102z06

Hey

Saw your post about the Supra. I am not sure what you are looking for in terms of a response but here are my impressions about the Z06.

I'm 6'4" and can fit into the car nicely. The steering wheel does not appear to want to settle in the right spot but I put up with it. I have owned a 2002 and a 2003 Z06 and the 2002 was a much better car in terms of fit and finish. I believe that this was simple bad luck in the buying the 2003, not an overall sign of worse quality in the '03s.

You are right in saying that the quality, fit and finish of an american car compared to a Japanese car is lacking. I do not think that you needed to drive a Z06 and Supra to figure that one out. Also, the Supra appears to be a very desirable alternative to the Z06 for some reason. I would prefer a GNX but who cares about that.

The Supra disappeared, in my opinion, because it was not a logical choice given its price. Geez, think how bad the vettes were when the Supra was new and they still could not sell them. Well, the prices of other cars have caught up with them and now they are logical high performance alternatives even though they are 10 years old. The Supra has not changed, the prices of other cars have gone up.

Forgeting the price difference, I still prefer an american car. I do not care who owns the company or where it was built or where the parts came from, I still like the vette for some reason. Until I buy a complete lemon, I will stay that way.

If you like modding a car and will put up with the associated maintenance connected with that then I would buy the Supra. If you keep it in good shape and don't put 100,000 miles on it, it may even be worth something some day. If not then buy a corvette.

Thanks

Z06KahunaCanuck

I'm sorry, but if you like the Supra that much, buy it. I don't think you are going to find many people on here who agree with your opinion. I certainly don't. If you are looking for a great investment buy Real Estate. :confused:

Z06 Quin

I couldn't read through it all either....but a couple of comments. The shifter is very well placed, it is in the same plane as the steering wheel.....go drive a Mustang if you want to see sorry shifter placement....as for the throws....yes....a short throw shifter does wonders.

I have had no problems or complaints from either my 2000 MN6 coupe which I put 45,000 problem free miles on (and car was still solid as a rock at trade -in), or my 2003 Z06 which is coming up on 4000 miles.....again, it's been solid. No squeaks, rattles, etc.....

I'll give ya that the stereo is not top notch, but I didn't buy the car for a sound system, it's not a priority with me......

as for the Supra, I passed on it in 1992 when I opted for the much better looking 300 ZXTT, and would pass on it again.....it just plain ugly in my opinion, just like the Viper......

FLYNLO

Oh yeah. When you get that Supra, stop back by for a little spankin"!!!!!! :smash: :smash: :jester :jester

Silver JD

Here are the specs to compare:

Specifications
Type: 98 Supra vs 02 Z06
Dimensions
Exterior:
Length: 177.8 in. v 179.7 in. Width: 71.3 in. v 73.6 in.
Height: 49.8 in. v 47.7 in. Weight: 3445 lbs. v 3115 lbs.
Wheel Base: 100.4 in. vs 104.5 in.
Interior:
Front Head Room: 37.5 in. vs 37.8 in. Front Hip Room: 56.7 in. vs 54.2 in.
Front Shoulder Room: 54.2 in. vs 55.3 in. Rear Head Room: 32.9 in. vs NA
Rear Shoulder Room: 43.8 in. vs NA Rear Hip Room: 42.5 in. vs NA
Front Leg Room: 44 in. vs 42.7 Rear Leg Room: 23.8 in. vs NA
Luggage Capacity: 10.1 cf vs 13.3 cf Maximum Seating: 4 vs 2
Performance Data
0-60 mph: 4.9 sec. Vs 4.3 sec. Braking Distance: 109 ft. vs 110 ft.
Road Holding Index: 0.98 g Base Number of Cylinders: 6 vs 8
Base Engine Size: 3 liters vs 5.7 liters Base Engine Type: Inline 6 vs V8
Horsepower: 320 hp vs 405 hp Max Horsepower: 5600 rpm vs 6000 rpm
Torque: 315 ft-lbs. vs 400 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 4000 rpm vs 4800 rpm
Drive Type: RWD vs RWD Turning Circle: 35.8 ft. vs 42.3 ft.
Fuel Data Fuel Tank Capacity: 18.5 gal. vs 18.5 gal
EPA Mileage Estimates: (City/Highway): 17 mpg / 24 mpg vs 19 mpg / 28 mpg
Range in Miles: (City/Highway): 314.5 mi./444 mi. vs 351.5 mi./518 mi.

I owned an MR-2 and I am only 5' 7" yet my head almost hit the headliner (w/T-Top). I don't have that issue with my Z06. As far as fit and finish, my Z has the same quality of fit and finish as my MR2. I have not owned a Supra so I can not comment.

My Z06 weighs 300 lbs less than a four year old Supra. Please explain how a car that weighs 300 lbs more and has 85 hp less can be comparable? Also why would I want to buy a car that is four years old, has at least 35k miles and I will have to put $10k in mods to come close to competing with a '02 or '03 Z06.

Yes the Z has had its problems, but a four year old Supra that is out of warranty, to me, is a higher risk. :smash:

My choice is the Z06. JMHO :chevy Good luck with your Supra. :seeya

John :cheers:

PS: The source of the specs was Edmunds.com used cars.


[Modified by Silver JD, 12:11 PM 12/27/2002]

Kal

70LT104 your 6'4? Wow you must have to put the seat back all the way leaned back gangster style. Silver when you mention the head room numbers thats in the front where the roof is the highest. The problem with the Z is the roof slopes backward towards teh rear and when you have the seat all the way back (The way tall people have to set it) then the ceiling goes down very fast. From a position that is further forward. Quin I was talking about a MKIV 94+ Supra not a MKIII.


[Modified by Kal, 8:14 PM 12/27/2002]

Z06KahunaCanuck

I'm 6'3" and have no problem sitting in the car. I also track my car with my helmet on. The seat is at the farthest rear position and down as far as possible, with the seatback tilted back but not alot.

I don't know if you are looking to honestly looking for opinions or just looking to get flamed.

To be honest, if you have to compare these two cars that hard, you probably shouldn't buy the Z06. For me there was no other car out there that can perform the way the Vette does both on the road and the track. The only cars that come close are Porsche Turbos and GT2s. If you are buying a car for resale value as your main determining factor, buy a Camry. You can't compare the resale on a new car vs. a used car.

Good luck...

Silver JD

You got me, my short legs will account for seat placement. But I would expect a car that is two inches shorter to give up some head room for you taller fellas. :D

I guess I still don't understand how you can compare the performance of a 3 L Turbo I-6 rated at 320 hp with a 5.7 L NA V8 rated at 405 hp. Obviously I don't agree but that's my opinion. :flag The mods you would have to make to bring a 4 to 8 year old Supra close to a '02 Z06 still doesn't make sense to me. :rolleyes: All I can say is have fun with your project car.

John :cheers:

LTC Z06

Too long and, quote Sure the Z is a varacious compeditor on the road course but you put a average driver in the Porsche and he will turn better times for quite a while guranteed. end quote

Are you crazy, the Z06 is very nuetral and forgiving, the Porsche, even the new ones, you have to really learn. I auto-x with one the the head engineers at Porsche, he likes to say, "Porsche, a bad design engineered to perfection." You should have heard him and Louis Ruf bad mouthing mordern Porsche design!!!!!!!

quote I got the z06 up to 100 on the city street and the car was not nearly as "assuring" so to say. end quote

I've done 171 mph in a curve on the autobahn, ROCK SOLID. and Mario has said many good things to say about the Z06 also.

Just get your old *** car a be happy, don't justify it to us. :crazy: :crazy:


[Modified by CPT Z06, 10:42 PM 12/27/2002]


[Modified by CPT Z06, 11:22 PM 12/27/2002]

AP

:eek: ... that is too long to read ...

wstory1

:iagree:

Adam B

I didn't feel like reading that book...but this is all I have to say..

I've owned both...and you see which one I still own..

JCL

WOW. I thought I could get "windy." I don't think you need the Z. Get the Supra. One test drive was enough for me to want to purchase a Z06. It's got EVERYTHING I need........... JCL :yesnod:

badddrx7

I have a 93 3rd gen SINGLE Turbo RX7 in the stable, and a properly tuned/modded out beast such as this can be a Supra's worst nightmare. But since I bought a 2002 MY Z06 the Rx7 is moved outside into a "cover it" type vinyl garage. Before the Z was the rx7 world, now it's all Z06 forever. Need I say anymore....!

needhlp

Get a viper :lol: :lol:

Phil97SVT

Man, Here is my advice:
1) buy your supra
2) do some modifications
3) run 12's like 2/3s of the supras on the streets. :lol:
Phillip

dbhajek

TexasRed

When you say barely compete with a C4 I hope you are taking about a ZR1.
http://www.mkiv.com/publications/mot...d-Feb-95-4.jpg
http://www.mkiv.com/publications/mot...3/mt893_12.jpg

I own both and they are both great cars.

Bud
94 SupraTT
02 Z06