[Z06] Z06 VS VIPER-CAR AND DRIVER.
07-13-2001, 09:14 AM
#1
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I think car and driver said it best.I quote:
"Considering we've had trouble slipping 460-hp Vipers under the four-second mark and that
a Z06 has never hit 60 in less than 4.3 seconds by our hands or reached 1320 feet in
less than 12.7 seconds,it's possible we won't
be able to subtantiate these claims."
The claims they are talking about is that
GM says the 405hp Z06 will go 0-60 in less
than four seconds and run the quarter mile in
12.4 seconds.I agree.And the NEW viper will
have 500hp.So not only will the 405hp Z06
not out perform a current viper,it certainly
does not stand a chance againt the future
viper.My point,until GM get's serious about
making the corvette first in american performance,I am afraid the viper will reign
as the king.Can we please see a lingenfelter
factory option so we can finally shut those
viper owners up!
sr
sr
"Considering we've had trouble slipping 460-hp Vipers under the four-second mark and that
a Z06 has never hit 60 in less than 4.3 seconds by our hands or reached 1320 feet in
less than 12.7 seconds,it's possible we won't
be able to subtantiate these claims."
The claims they are talking about is that
GM says the 405hp Z06 will go 0-60 in less
than four seconds and run the quarter mile in
12.4 seconds.I agree.And the NEW viper will
have 500hp.So not only will the 405hp Z06
not out perform a current viper,it certainly
does not stand a chance againt the future
viper.My point,until GM get's serious about
making the corvette first in american performance,I am afraid the viper will reign
as the king.Can we please see a lingenfelter
factory option so we can finally shut those
viper owners up!
sr
sr
07-13-2001, 09:45 AM
#2
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Different car, different market.
Do you think 911 turbo or Ferrari owners give a rats butt about how much horsepower a Dodge makes.
The Corvette is a great car that needs to continue focusing on what it really is: an affordable, practical near-exoctic.
Do you think 911 turbo or Ferrari owners give a rats butt about how much horsepower a Dodge makes.
The Corvette is a great car that needs to continue focusing on what it really is: an affordable, practical near-exoctic.
07-13-2001, 01:15 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
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sr,
The Viper is a great drag car that is pretty good on a road course. The Vette is a great road car that is pretty good on the drag strip. I for one hope they NEVER compromise the Corvette philosophy just for 1/4 mile bragging rights over the Viper. And, by the way, you already have a Lingenfelter TT option. Cheers.
The Viper is a great drag car that is pretty good on a road course. The Vette is a great road car that is pretty good on the drag strip. I for one hope they NEVER compromise the Corvette philosophy just for 1/4 mile bragging rights over the Viper. And, by the way, you already have a Lingenfelter TT option. Cheers.
07-13-2001, 01:16 PM
#4
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I have to disagree about the "different car, different market" theory. To me the Viper and Z06 are in the same market because for a long time I was deciding between the two. And yes I believe 911 Turbo owners, at least some, do care about how much power the Viper makes as evidenced by some of the racing stories I've read about. I'm glad GM keeps improving the performance of their Vettes but I would prefer if they acknowledged their competition with the Viper instead of denying it because it is so obvious.
By the way, MT did the 1/4 mile in 12.6 seconds in over 100 degrees of temperature. I have no problem believing the 2002 Z06 will do it in 12.4.
By the way, MT did the 1/4 mile in 12.6 seconds in over 100 degrees of temperature. I have no problem believing the 2002 Z06 will do it in 12.4.
07-13-2001, 05:07 PM
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If the vett and viper are not in direct
competition as you say,then how come they
compete against each other in the GTS class,
and why did GM put so much money into the
GTS corvettes that did kick the vipers asses
at the 24 hours of Lemans.You guys are DEAD
wrong and you know it!
sr
competition as you say,then how come they
compete against each other in the GTS class,
and why did GM put so much money into the
GTS corvettes that did kick the vipers asses
at the 24 hours of Lemans.You guys are DEAD
wrong and you know it!
sr
07-13-2001, 06:05 PM
#6
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Sr, I'm not sure if you were addressing me but I just wanted to clear up what I was saying. I meant on the street GM has denied being in competition with Dodge and if I remember correctly it was Dave Hill who once said that he's not interested in a horsepower war with the Viper. I guess to me it sounded like a denial of direct competition with the Viper when in fact it's clear that the Z06 and Viper are in the same market. That's not to say they are the same car, but many people may be choosing between the two like I was.
07-13-2001, 06:24 PM
#7
Safety Car
30,000 Corvettes per year compared to 5,000 Vipers per year. GM wins!!!!!!!!!
07-13-2001, 07:06 PM
#8
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I would have to say that the Viper and Vette are not direct competitors. The Viper is almost twice price. That is like saying the Mustang (excluding the 300 Cobra Rs that were produced) is a direct competitor to the Vette. When I bought my Z06 as a student I couldn't afford a $72,000-88,000 car. Financially, it would have been impossible. The Viper didn't compete in my decision to buy a Z06 because by necessity it is priced into a different category. Now in three years, when $72k will be a drop in the bucket for me, that might be another story and I plan on purchasing a new Viper. I can see how someone might want to put them in the same category because performance wise they are very close, but due to their price disparity, they just aren't direct competitors IMO.
07-13-2001, 11:29 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times, the Vette does not compeate with the Viper, 911, Ferrari F360, Z8 and the like. It's competition is the Boxster, M3, Supra (dead), RX7 (dead), 300ZX (dead), and even the BMW M coupe and M roadster. The fact that the Corvette can run in the same leauge as the Viper and the like is a great thing for us, but why is that the case?
GM knows that the vette is known for it's performance and that's what sells the car, so that is what they emphasise. So even though an M3 or Boxster has a better interior or whatever it can't hang with a Z06 around a track. Chevy loves to get the Vette COMPARED to a Viper, but they know they cannot beat the Viper's performance AND keep the car in it's current price point (Which they see as it's major draw). Honestly, if the least expensive 1SA Vette Coupe started at $72,000 how many of you would have bought a different car?
-Adam
-Adam
GM knows that the vette is known for it's performance and that's what sells the car, so that is what they emphasise. So even though an M3 or Boxster has a better interior or whatever it can't hang with a Z06 around a track. Chevy loves to get the Vette COMPARED to a Viper, but they know they cannot beat the Viper's performance AND keep the car in it's current price point (Which they see as it's major draw). Honestly, if the least expensive 1SA Vette Coupe started at $72,000 how many of you would have bought a different car?
-Adam
-Adam
07-14-2001, 10:50 PM
#12
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This is a very HOT topic with two VERY DIVIDED camps--both with good points.
Many (probably most) want the "price point" Vette and may have purchased a Vette because they loved the Vette but also because they did not want to spend the $$$ for the Viper.
The other camp (where I live) wants the world-beating car--even if it costs $20k more. I got the Vette because I flat out did not like the driving position and styling of the current Viper and was appalled at the price of the 996TT GT2 ($180k base). This group does not want the Vette to be a "kind of" good performance car that is "almost" as fast as the Viper or 996TT in this test or that. If you look at some of the Z06 materials from GM you will see a "Power-to-weight" table which lists the Viper and 911TT (and even the Boxter, etc.) BTW this camp would also like a GM warranty and the ease of taking the car to any dealer for work.
AS far as statements to the effect that, "the Vette is not in competition with the Viper, 911, 911TT, Ferraris," the authors have not been to the track and have lost all touch with reality. Those are the cars the Vette goes against on the road courses (and also NSXs, certain Mustangs, and highly modded RX7s). You are unbelievably lost if you think the Boxster is the Vette's competition at the track. My cam and heads and headers Z06, even with my developing driving skills, just romps over the other cars you mentioned. (Of course any car that has enough race prep and a good driver can be fast.)
Hopefully, GM will be addressing the brewing "WAR" between the two groups of Vette fans in 2004 by giving us serious engine options, thus allowing everyone to stay GM and have what they want without going to tuners. It is really not an acceptable answer to say, "those that want the power can go to LPE, etc." Would you like to ship your car across the country for service each time there is an issue?
My Z06 is getting a stroker as soon as parts arrive so I am hedging my bet. I also have deposits on a 2003 Viper and a C6 LS7. This post is to demonstrate that not all of us want simply a well-balanced "average" car!
[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 07-14-2001).]
Many (probably most) want the "price point" Vette and may have purchased a Vette because they loved the Vette but also because they did not want to spend the $$$ for the Viper.
The other camp (where I live) wants the world-beating car--even if it costs $20k more. I got the Vette because I flat out did not like the driving position and styling of the current Viper and was appalled at the price of the 996TT GT2 ($180k base). This group does not want the Vette to be a "kind of" good performance car that is "almost" as fast as the Viper or 996TT in this test or that. If you look at some of the Z06 materials from GM you will see a "Power-to-weight" table which lists the Viper and 911TT (and even the Boxter, etc.) BTW this camp would also like a GM warranty and the ease of taking the car to any dealer for work.
AS far as statements to the effect that, "the Vette is not in competition with the Viper, 911, 911TT, Ferraris," the authors have not been to the track and have lost all touch with reality. Those are the cars the Vette goes against on the road courses (and also NSXs, certain Mustangs, and highly modded RX7s). You are unbelievably lost if you think the Boxster is the Vette's competition at the track. My cam and heads and headers Z06, even with my developing driving skills, just romps over the other cars you mentioned. (Of course any car that has enough race prep and a good driver can be fast.)
Hopefully, GM will be addressing the brewing "WAR" between the two groups of Vette fans in 2004 by giving us serious engine options, thus allowing everyone to stay GM and have what they want without going to tuners. It is really not an acceptable answer to say, "those that want the power can go to LPE, etc." Would you like to ship your car across the country for service each time there is an issue?
My Z06 is getting a stroker as soon as parts arrive so I am hedging my bet. I also have deposits on a 2003 Viper and a C6 LS7. This post is to demonstrate that not all of us want simply a well-balanced "average" car!
[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 07-14-2001).]
07-14-2001, 11:58 PM
#13
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Mako, good points - I'll add a couple of more in this ramble, based on reading ACAR, and my own (admittedly tangential) experience with manufacturing issues.
Compared to the Viper and some of the other makes mentioned, the 'vette is a relatively mass-produced car - even if it's numbers are puny compared to other GM brands. Once manufacturing economics come into play, coupled with the need to hit that "target market," a number of different factors come to bear, including (as we've seen in the last year or so) the need to keep costs competitive (like by minimizing the number of options you offer) so that you simplify the supply-chain side of the equation.
Also interesting to note is the model year transition this year. I don't remember the "fire sale" scenario last year - maybe I missed it. But it seems to me that with the down-turn in the stock market, there is an over-supply of "left over" 2001 Corvettes, resulting in some sweet deals. (I know, because we just took advantage of a deal on a 2001 Z06.)
The point being, I guess, that 'vette sales are very dependent on external economic conditions (duh!), and that manufacturing capacity is plus-or-minus a few thousand units right about where it should be. If I were a manager at GM, I wouldn't want to add a bunch of cost into the mix by branching out into exotic car territory.
The ZR1 proved that there is a very limited market for the super-performance car: Look at the numbers, and you'll see a big spike in sales for the first couple of years, then the bottom fell out. For this reason, I think the GM decision was to leave that market to the low-volume "tuners" like LPE.
There may be a "very special" 'vette for the anniversary, but I'll bet it also commands a super-premium price. (Which, btw, I personally will not be interested in.)
======================================== ====
'00 MagRed Coupe
Museum delivery, a4, z51, 3.15, hud
Courtesy of Karl Johanson!
tric, corsa touring pro, C&R x-pipe, export lights, V1, tts Powerloaded, Pilot Sports
'93 Torch Coupe bone stock, right down to the GSC's, for sale
'69 Coupe de Ville needs work, for sale
'99 Chrysler 300m to be replaced by Karen's 2001 Silver Z06, 7/18/01
Thanks again, Karl!
http://www.northcoastvettes.org
Compared to the Viper and some of the other makes mentioned, the 'vette is a relatively mass-produced car - even if it's numbers are puny compared to other GM brands. Once manufacturing economics come into play, coupled with the need to hit that "target market," a number of different factors come to bear, including (as we've seen in the last year or so) the need to keep costs competitive (like by minimizing the number of options you offer) so that you simplify the supply-chain side of the equation.
Also interesting to note is the model year transition this year. I don't remember the "fire sale" scenario last year - maybe I missed it. But it seems to me that with the down-turn in the stock market, there is an over-supply of "left over" 2001 Corvettes, resulting in some sweet deals. (I know, because we just took advantage of a deal on a 2001 Z06.)
The point being, I guess, that 'vette sales are very dependent on external economic conditions (duh!), and that manufacturing capacity is plus-or-minus a few thousand units right about where it should be. If I were a manager at GM, I wouldn't want to add a bunch of cost into the mix by branching out into exotic car territory.
The ZR1 proved that there is a very limited market for the super-performance car: Look at the numbers, and you'll see a big spike in sales for the first couple of years, then the bottom fell out. For this reason, I think the GM decision was to leave that market to the low-volume "tuners" like LPE.
There may be a "very special" 'vette for the anniversary, but I'll bet it also commands a super-premium price. (Which, btw, I personally will not be interested in.)
======================================== ====
'00 MagRed Coupe
Museum delivery, a4, z51, 3.15, hud
Courtesy of Karl Johanson!
tric, corsa touring pro, C&R x-pipe, export lights, V1, tts Powerloaded, Pilot Sports
'93 Torch Coupe bone stock, right down to the GSC's, for sale
'69 Coupe de Ville needs work, for sale
'99 Chrysler 300m to be replaced by Karen's 2001 Silver Z06, 7/18/01
Thanks again, Karl!
http://www.northcoastvettes.org
07-15-2001, 01:39 PM
#14
Melting Slicks
Mako,
You forget that GM has allready done this with the ZR1. GM considered the ZR1 a sales flop. I invite you to read "All Corvettes are Red" and you will seee that the ZR1 figured into the development of the hardtop Corvette. Specificly that GM didn't want to relive that failure. The ZR1 was a steller performer for the time and even so today, but track statistics alone do not make a car a sales sucess or flop. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:[/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I got the Vette because I flat out did not like the driving position and styling of the current Viper and was appalled at the price of the 996TT GT2 ($180k base). This group does not want the Vette to be a "kind of" good performance car that is "almost" as fast as the Viper or 996TT in this test or that. If you look at some of the Z06 materials from GM you will see a "Power-to-weight" table which lists the Viper and 911TT (and even the Boxter, etc.) BTW this camp would also like a GM warranty and the ease of taking the car to any dealer for work. [/color][/QUOTE]Mako, another thing you are forgeting is this. The 911 and Viper are designed for a much smaller niche market than the Corvette. For that reason the Corvette needs to bow in favor of the "I need a good daily driver" crowd, while the Viper does not. Because the Viper need nopt make those consessions, you can design the car to perform better at the track. Now because the Corvette is not allowed to sacrifice creature comforts and daily-driveability for perofrmance, bringing the Corvette on par with a GTS ACR is a very expensive option for GM with little to no real financial windfall. (Again, remember the ZR1) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:[/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">AS far as statements to the effect that, "the Vette is not in competition with the Viper, 911, 911TT, Ferraris," the authors have not been to the track and have lost all touch with reality.[/color][/QUOTE]Mako, if you think for a second that GM cares about anything other than the numbers on the balance sheet at the end of the Qtr, then you are the one that has "lost all touch with reality". Let's be blunt here, if the Corvette generated the same performance numbers as the other cars in it's competiion (i.e. Boxster, M Roadster, M3) then the car would loose sales as the Chevrolet banner lacks the prestige of the BMW and Porsche nameplates. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:[/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Those are the cars the Vette goes against on the road courses (and also NSXs, certain Mustangs, and highly modded RX7s). You are unbelievably lost if you think the Boxster is the Vette's competition at the track. [/color][/QUOTE]Mako, if you think track performance makes for a hill of beans to GM as well as what does and does not constitute a car's market niche and competition, then I invite you to take a course in business. The number one factor in market competition is PRICE. Features (i.e. how nice the interior looks, how does the car perform, how many cup holders the car has) deferentiate the car in it's Market which again is set by price. If you want to go by Performance alone, then the Corvette's market competition would include Japanese Superbikes, Camaro Z28s and Firebirds, Subaru WRX Sti, etc. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote][/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> My cam and heads and headers Z06, even with my developing driving skills, just romps over the other cars you mentioned. (Of course any car that has enough race prep and a good driver can be fast.) [/color][/QUOTE]again you are confusing track performance as a deffinition of the market. Performance is a feature, and fetures define how well a product does against other products in it's same price point.
Mako, I appreciate you proving two points for me,
First, It's a very well known market trend that everyone wants to comapre their purchase to something more expensive to feel like they got a good deal. Example I buy a nice Sony reciever, so I say how it sounds like a Denon for a third the price.
Second, General Motors does not make cars, they make money. They do not care about the Corvette, your club, or your romance to your car, or even how your car performs against a viper at a street light. They will only foster the above in so much as it helps their bottom line.
-Adam
You forget that GM has allready done this with the ZR1. GM considered the ZR1 a sales flop. I invite you to read "All Corvettes are Red" and you will seee that the ZR1 figured into the development of the hardtop Corvette. Specificly that GM didn't want to relive that failure. The ZR1 was a steller performer for the time and even so today, but track statistics alone do not make a car a sales sucess or flop. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:[/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> I got the Vette because I flat out did not like the driving position and styling of the current Viper and was appalled at the price of the 996TT GT2 ($180k base). This group does not want the Vette to be a "kind of" good performance car that is "almost" as fast as the Viper or 996TT in this test or that. If you look at some of the Z06 materials from GM you will see a "Power-to-weight" table which lists the Viper and 911TT (and even the Boxter, etc.) BTW this camp would also like a GM warranty and the ease of taking the car to any dealer for work. [/color][/QUOTE]Mako, another thing you are forgeting is this. The 911 and Viper are designed for a much smaller niche market than the Corvette. For that reason the Corvette needs to bow in favor of the "I need a good daily driver" crowd, while the Viper does not. Because the Viper need nopt make those consessions, you can design the car to perform better at the track. Now because the Corvette is not allowed to sacrifice creature comforts and daily-driveability for perofrmance, bringing the Corvette on par with a GTS ACR is a very expensive option for GM with little to no real financial windfall. (Again, remember the ZR1) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:[/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">AS far as statements to the effect that, "the Vette is not in competition with the Viper, 911, 911TT, Ferraris," the authors have not been to the track and have lost all touch with reality.[/color][/QUOTE]Mako, if you think for a second that GM cares about anything other than the numbers on the balance sheet at the end of the Qtr, then you are the one that has "lost all touch with reality". Let's be blunt here, if the Corvette generated the same performance numbers as the other cars in it's competiion (i.e. Boxster, M Roadster, M3) then the car would loose sales as the Chevrolet banner lacks the prestige of the BMW and Porsche nameplates. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:[/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Those are the cars the Vette goes against on the road courses (and also NSXs, certain Mustangs, and highly modded RX7s). You are unbelievably lost if you think the Boxster is the Vette's competition at the track. [/color][/QUOTE]Mako, if you think track performance makes for a hill of beans to GM as well as what does and does not constitute a car's market niche and competition, then I invite you to take a course in business. The number one factor in market competition is PRICE. Features (i.e. how nice the interior looks, how does the car perform, how many cup holders the car has) deferentiate the car in it's Market which again is set by price. If you want to go by Performance alone, then the Corvette's market competition would include Japanese Superbikes, Camaro Z28s and Firebirds, Subaru WRX Sti, etc. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote][/color]<HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> My cam and heads and headers Z06, even with my developing driving skills, just romps over the other cars you mentioned. (Of course any car that has enough race prep and a good driver can be fast.) [/color][/QUOTE]again you are confusing track performance as a deffinition of the market. Performance is a feature, and fetures define how well a product does against other products in it's same price point.
Mako, I appreciate you proving two points for me,
First, It's a very well known market trend that everyone wants to comapre their purchase to something more expensive to feel like they got a good deal. Example I buy a nice Sony reciever, so I say how it sounds like a Denon for a third the price.
Second, General Motors does not make cars, they make money. They do not care about the Corvette, your club, or your romance to your car, or even how your car performs against a viper at a street light. They will only foster the above in so much as it helps their bottom line.
-Adam
07-15-2001, 02:06 PM
#15
Drifting
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comments that the ZO6 competitors are the Boxster, M3, Supra, RX7, 300ZX, BMW coupe, M Roadster are embarassing and delusional. Get real. I wouldn't even park next to those cars much less make a statement that they are equal to the Vette.
07-15-2001, 05:50 PM
#16
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Adam: Thanks for your comments. As I mentioned, there are two extremely different viewpoints among Corvette fans on what they want from the Corvette. I am in one camp and you appear to be the other. No problem. My overall wish is that GM will build a factory car for both of us.
As for "people always wanting to compare their cars to more expensive ones," I believe this misses the mark. The only reason for such a comparision is for performance such as the track and races where the cars go head-to-head every day. It is not about use of carbon fiber dash inserts or leather shifters or prestige emblems. If I wanted a Viper, 911TT or even a Ferrari bad enough (all awesome cars) I would have one or more of such cars (I plan to buy a 2003 Viper if the C6 is not at least close in horsepower). I just happen to like the features and package of the Vette--including styling, price and moddability.
It also seems that you are ignoring the "prestige factor" or "halo effect" that a high performance production car brings to the mix. GM plays on this with the C5R. Why do we have the Z06 anyway if GM is not interested in stepping up the performance? GM sells all of the C5s anyway right? Dodge does not make large dinero on the limited run of Vipers, but it brings great prestige and probably SALES to the various Dodge models.
So for now we can agree to disagree. If you get a Boxter, Audi A4 or any of those other "direct competitors" of the C5, bring it up to Willow Springs or Button Willow and let's have some fun!
As for "people always wanting to compare their cars to more expensive ones," I believe this misses the mark. The only reason for such a comparision is for performance such as the track and races where the cars go head-to-head every day. It is not about use of carbon fiber dash inserts or leather shifters or prestige emblems. If I wanted a Viper, 911TT or even a Ferrari bad enough (all awesome cars) I would have one or more of such cars (I plan to buy a 2003 Viper if the C6 is not at least close in horsepower). I just happen to like the features and package of the Vette--including styling, price and moddability.
It also seems that you are ignoring the "prestige factor" or "halo effect" that a high performance production car brings to the mix. GM plays on this with the C5R. Why do we have the Z06 anyway if GM is not interested in stepping up the performance? GM sells all of the C5s anyway right? Dodge does not make large dinero on the limited run of Vipers, but it brings great prestige and probably SALES to the various Dodge models.
So for now we can agree to disagree. If you get a Boxter, Audi A4 or any of those other "direct competitors" of the C5, bring it up to Willow Springs or Button Willow and let's have some fun!
07-15-2001, 11:14 PM
#17
Maybe I'm one of the few, but I couldn't care less that a Viper can beat the Z06 down the 1320. In fact, I couldn't care less if a Viper could beat the Z06 in every performance category (which I'm sure it doesn't). If the Viper were cheaper than a Z06, I still wouldn't buy it. I've driven two different Vipers, and couldn't care less if I ever drive one again. After 10 minutes driving a GTS, I had driver fatigue. The pedals were ackward and the car was a handful, even on completely dry pavement. I plan on enjoying my Z06 every day, rain or shine. Try that in a Viper. IMHO, I agree with those who say they are in a different market. I will enjoy my car for what it is and not try to compare it to everything else on the road. Hell, there are tons of civics that will show you their tail lights in a drag race...would you trade your Vette for one of those?
07-16-2001, 10:52 AM
#19
Pro
Member Since: Nov 2000
Location: Long Island, NY
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sr,
Congratulations, You've quickly discovered the secret to getting a big response on this forum. The secret word is Viper. I'm sure some Viper guys are about to ring in on this one.
Congratulations, You've quickly discovered the secret to getting a big response on this forum. The secret word is Viper. I'm sure some Viper guys are about to ring in on this one.
07-16-2001, 01:07 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
You guys are as bad as Viper owners. Do you have bowties tatood on your butts? The Viper guys act like they have snake heads on theirs sometimes.
If the Viper is better and you can afford it, BUY IT! If the Vette is better and you can afford it BUY IT! But for cryin' out loud, why lament the fact that the Viper does not have the beloved bowtie or that the Vette is not a Dodge? And all the subjective bashing of one or the other gets so old that I'd rather you just post a pic of your tatoos.
I have the good fortune to have a Viper and C4 and love them both because they are both fantastic CARS, each with pluses and minuses. But I guarantee I did not buy one or the other out of a misguided sense of brand loyalty. Too much brand loyalty leads to blind purchase of inferior vehicles, over time, IMO. You think GM would have even bothered with the C5 and Z06 if it was not worried that the C4 (and base C5) were getting crushed by the Viper and encroached upon by Mustang Cobras? You think Dodge would have upped the ante so much with the '03 RT/10 if it did not fear the C5 (and apparently the Honda S2000, the way the RT/10 looks ;-))?
Get what works best for you, considering what is important to you and your budget. But quit whining over the unbelievable fact that someone else might actually think their car is better that yours.
Oh, and to add some fuel to the fire, I'll note that about 75% or so of Corvettes over the past several years have come with automatic transmissions, something that Vipers have never come with. That demographic alone speaks volumes about the driving enthusiasm/comfort & convenience preference of the buyers . . . .
Flame on!
If the Viper is better and you can afford it, BUY IT! If the Vette is better and you can afford it BUY IT! But for cryin' out loud, why lament the fact that the Viper does not have the beloved bowtie or that the Vette is not a Dodge? And all the subjective bashing of one or the other gets so old that I'd rather you just post a pic of your tatoos.
I have the good fortune to have a Viper and C4 and love them both because they are both fantastic CARS, each with pluses and minuses. But I guarantee I did not buy one or the other out of a misguided sense of brand loyalty. Too much brand loyalty leads to blind purchase of inferior vehicles, over time, IMO. You think GM would have even bothered with the C5 and Z06 if it was not worried that the C4 (and base C5) were getting crushed by the Viper and encroached upon by Mustang Cobras? You think Dodge would have upped the ante so much with the '03 RT/10 if it did not fear the C5 (and apparently the Honda S2000, the way the RT/10 looks ;-))?
Get what works best for you, considering what is important to you and your budget. But quit whining over the unbelievable fact that someone else might actually think their car is better that yours.
Oh, and to add some fuel to the fire, I'll note that about 75% or so of Corvettes over the past several years have come with automatic transmissions, something that Vipers have never come with. That demographic alone speaks volumes about the driving enthusiasm/comfort & convenience preference of the buyers . . . .
Flame on!