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Old 06-10-2006, 05:14 PM   #81
Killrwheels@Autogeek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackNoob
Don't know if it is same Bachrodt (Coconut Creek?), but the Parts guy, Mike, was a prince.



Same dealer Lou Bachrodt in Coconut Creek.... and there are a couple of gems, including Kasey (service) and Frank (parts manager). But the new Service Manager Brad is the truest butt of a donkey in every sense of the term. I cannot wait to destroy the next survey. Maybe missing a bonus or two will help him remember just what "customer service" entails.

Last edited by Killrwheels@Autogeek; 06-11-2006 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 06-10-2006, 05:26 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Monterrey Bill
I haven't had any problem with mine yet, I am affraid to take it
in after reading all this on them, No doubt there will be a problem for sure if I do.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:48 PM   #83
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the other issue to consider is what happens outside the warranty period ?? If your roof fails at a later date and you failed to have them repair or update as needed during the National Recall Period ???
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:52 PM   #84
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Geeessssh!! Why would anyone want a painted panel in the first place!!
Just my 0.02cents!
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:56 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Jbal
Geeessssh!! Why would anyone want a painted panel in the first place!!
Just my 0.02cents!
FLORIDA .... Heat Index in the car each day is over 101 degree's during the late spring / summer. Painted panel reduces some heat, and far quieter than the lexan top. I had both on my C5, and other than winter found NO use for it. At this point if GM offered a free lexan top I would take it , just to be able to use the car and stop visiting the ****ty dealer so often.
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Old 06-10-2006, 09:59 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Killrwheels@Autogeek
FLORIDA .... Heat Index in the car each day is over 101 degree's during the late spring / summer. Painted panel reduces some heat, and far quieter than the lexan top. I had both on my C5, and other than winter found NO use for it. At this point if GM offered a free lexan top I would take it , just to be able to use the car and stop visiting the ****ty dealer so often.
I would not want a lexan roof except in the winter here in Florida. I had both on a C4... Lexan top.... winter use only.
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Old 06-11-2006, 01:02 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killrwheels@Autogeek
FLORIDA .... Heat Index in the car each day is over 101 degree's during the late spring / summer. Painted panel reduces some heat, and far quieter than the lexan top. I had both on my C5, and other than winter found NO use for it. At this point if GM offered a free lexan top I would take it , just to be able to use the car and stop visiting the ****ty dealer so often.
Do you know if this has happened to corvette owners in cold climates. All of this is coming out at one time and its summer so it is definitely related to the heat. So if you live where it doesn't get to this boiling point whatever that is then you don't have to worry? I wouldn't want them to mess with my painted top since I don't have any problems with it now but if i send it in they will get adhesive on the paint and will have to get me a new top so then the process starts all over again.
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Old 06-11-2006, 01:16 AM   #88
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Time to get the nail gun out.
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:29 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LS WON
Do you know if this has happened to corvette owners in cold climates. All of this is coming out at one time and its summer so it is definitely related to the heat. So if you live where it doesn't get to this boiling point whatever that is then you don't have to worry? I wouldn't want them to mess with my painted top since I don't have any problems with it now but if i send it in they will get adhesive on the paint and will have to get me a new top so then the process starts all over again.
I agree 110% than the heat and humidity seems to increase the likelyhood of failure. Also note a significant amount of cars are black, and black retains heat moreso than metallic based paint which reflects some heat.

But, if the glue/adhesive has failed prematurely in these areas, does that mean that the likelyhood of failure in cold areas will be less. I dont pretend to know .... what I suspect is the adhesive is the wrong choice for these applications. I suspect that over time even cars in colder climates "might" see delamination. There are no attachment points in the two panels other than this glue/adhesive.

My second worry, is that GM failed (or its supplier) to understand exactly what is needed to attach a polycarbonate type painted panel to a magnesium frame. If this is the case ... and hot temperatures are just speeding the failure rate --- then all of us have to worry. Because likely all glue/adhesive would fail at some point. The National forced recall from NHTSA now gives all Corvette owners some recourse at a later date if this is true. (think outside the warrranty period)


------------------------
My biggest example is the clearcoat system GM used in the late 80's when laws became more stringent to protect the environment. Without National Recall and Recognition, those that did NOT experience clearcoat failure to later would have had to repair/repaint themselves. And dont think GM did not use this to its advantage, by still allowing dealers to pick and choose, or "upgrade" services into a reduced price for a total repaint. --- Obviously another story altogether. But areas with extreme sun/heat saw the issue first, while vehicles in other areas were "safe" or so they thought until later dates.
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:34 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killrwheels@Autogeek
Thanks guys/gals for the emails, posts, and PM's. I have found out that I need to file the Lemon Law in New York as the car was billed and sold there. I have found out that GM closed my last complaint out and figured it was repaired because they replaced the roof. (wow, didnt I already have one replaced under warranty prior ??)

My local dealer Bachrodt in Coconut Creek is becoming a real ball breaker. The Service Manager wont release a rental car unless I leave the Vette with them, ETA on new roof two weeks. So I should let some lot boy move the car around as he see's fit, I should allow a car with custom Iforged Wheels to sit unattended at night on lot, and I should basically drive around in some Neon until the painter and delivery specialist can both get OFF their asses and replace the roof. No priority status ....

And get this the dealer had the gall to tell the Customer Service Advisor at GM that it was a liability to allow me to keep the Vette in my garage. Locked and covered with my wife home almost all the time. The real liability is NOT giving a rental and allowing me to potentially drive it around till it falls off and kills or harms so unknowing person. GM and Chevy are going bankrupt for a reason ... they allow their dealers to make items worse.
Man, I just don't get this one at all. I am having my C6 done at the same dealer with no hassle, no problems. The service writer (Brandon) didn't even inspect the roof for more than a few seconds. Ordered a new roof and said to call him to make an appointment with him when I was notified that the roof came in. Like you, I was not going to leave my car there for 2 weeks, again, not a problem. I drove the C6 home with the roof off and parked it in the garage, where it has sat since. He asked if I wanted a rental, which I refused. Didn't want some front drive Impala POS. Maybe you got the wrong guy or someone was having a bad day and got stubborn.

I was dreading taking the C6 into the dealership because they are all bad, and Lou Bachrodt has a particularly bad repuation, especially since they advertise themselves as vette friendly but this has been OK, at least till now. I think Bachrodt's biggest problem is the hugh turnover they have with the service writers. Everytime I am there I see new faces.

I guess the final judge will be how well the new roof holds up and how well the body shop matches the paint.
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:49 AM   #91
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Man, I just don't get this one at all. I am having my C6 done at the same dealer with no hassle, no problems. The service writer (Brandon) didn't even inspect the roof for more than a few seconds. Ordered a new roof and said to call him to make an appointment with him when I was notified that the roof came in. Like you, I was not going to leave my car there for 2 weeks, again, not a problem. I drove the C6 home with the roof off and parked it in the garage, where it has sat since. He asked if I wanted a rental, which I refused. Didn't want some front drive Impala POS. Maybe you got the wrong guy or someone was having a bad day and got stubborn.

I have used Lou Bachrodt (Coconut Creek) for more than 10 years, I even had some of my non-chevy units there for oil changes. Recently, within the last year, they changed Service Managers. They fired one of their best Assistant Managers Dave ... and Brad has become the God of Service. Since then, nothing is easy with them.

I truly value Kasey as my service writer. Maybe he is too blame, but I seriously doubt it. He is always on top of my repairs, and has tried to do as Dave has with me prior. Infact, I recently sent a letter of praise to the dealer and hoped they would consider him for advancement. I have his personal home email, and when my wife or I call, he is always apologetic for any issue. But he has to follow the new regimine of Hitler (Brad) the Service Manager.

The rental car issue is the topping on the cake. Brad is simply being a true azz because GM is once again involved. And likely Chevy is pointing the finger at the dealer as this is the third replacement roof. I have actually had more than 3 people using other local dealers and yourself as an example that a rental CAN be assigned and car can be stored at home without issue. (dealer WONT accept full liability or it would be a non-issue) . Im not going to use the car ... and should not have to use wifes car while after a warranty issue involving safety has been verified !!

The only words of compliment I can now offer is that to date, the last two replacement panels had relatively nice paintwork. One had a small pin spot, and the other dented in one corner, but only noticed by someone who clearly keeps an eye out for even minor damage. Since I know that dealers, service writers, and service manager are all bonused on service, they will be very unhappy when the next survey is produced. I plan to rate "SUCKS" in every category ... except for Service Writer.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Killrwheels@Autogeek; 06-11-2006 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 06-11-2006, 12:00 PM   #92
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I took my car into Maroone Chevy in Fort Lauderdale on Monday (6-5-06) they ordered the top and I had the car back to me on Wednesday (6-7-06). I bought the transparent top for back up.

Great service department.
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Old 06-11-2006, 12:20 PM   #93
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After reading all of these roof-threads, I am coming to the conclusion that since Chevrolet apparently doesn't know how to fix the problem reliably, the bottom line for those of us who want solid roofs is:

(1) Buy a clear top (a second one if you already have one).

(2) Take it to a good body shop and have it painted to match the car.

(3) Take it to a good auto upholstery shop and have it insulated/lined as desired.

(4) Use worry-free.

Yes, expensive. But at least you can then relax while everyone is stressed out about their factory solid tops for the next ? years while Chevrolet is screwing around trying different brands of chewing gum, etc. As an incidental benefit, you'll also have a lighter-weight solid top.

Last edited by Rachane; 06-11-2006 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 06-11-2006, 12:58 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachane
After reading all of these roof-threads, I am coming to the conclusion that since Chevrolet apparently doesn't know how to fix the problem reliably, the bottom line for those of us who want solid roofs is...
I went back to the site where Chevy replied via letter on May 24, 2006 to NHTSA, to admit the "Customer Satisfaction" efforts need to be deemed a Product Recall, in accordance with Federal Regulation.

I encourage ALL 2005/2006 owners to please read the letter carefully in it's entirety, because I am not sure you will agree with their stance. It's a PDF so I can't cut and paste, but I will try to quote a couple of parts so that you can see GM has clearly set out on a path that involves a wait and see approach, and is purporting that the foam is an effective fix, after previously asserting that a process change to the adhesive was the fix. I have my own opinions on those positions, but invite you to decide for yourselves.

http://199.79.180.162/prepos/files/A...6V181-6133.PDF

"The following information is submitted pursuant to the requirements of 49 CFR 573.6 as it applies to a determination by General Motors of a safety defect involving certain 2005-06 model year Chevrolet Corvette model vehicles."

"Further warranty analysis on May 10, 2006 identified seven additional reports of roof separation for vehicles built after the August 17, 2005 adhesive curing process breakpoint."

"Further testing to the replacement roof showed the change to the adhesive curing process on August 17, 2005 did not provide adequate bond strength. Therefore roofs replaced as part of the Customer Satisfaction Program will be included in this safety recall to insert adhesive foam into the roof"

"vehicles repaired with foam...have adequate bond strength and require no further action."

"...GM does not plan to provide notice about reimbursement to owners because all vehicles are covered under the new vehicle warranty"


[Not responsible for errors in transcription. Link is provided, so check it yourself. All opinions stated on this forum are my own, and do not represent any company, group, or other entity. Your mileage may vary. Objects in mirror may be your roof.]

Last edited by TrackNoob; 06-11-2006 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 06-11-2006, 04:59 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killrwheels@Autogeek
[snip]
My second worry, is that GM failed (or its supplier) to understand exactly what is needed to attach a polycarbonate type painted panel to a magnesium frame.
Your example of the paint issues from decades past was a good one. We need to remember that the Corvette is a 'technology platform' so leading edge stuff is often piloted on our cars first.

In any event, I want to make a preliminary retraction - I have been stating that the painted roof panel is polycarbonate, based on reading of several articles. However, those same articles mentioned it being a thermoset, and that did not seem to jibe. Thanks Larry B. for tapping me politely on the shoulder and asking me if I was sure of my facts. No, I was not!

In fact, I have not been able to find an authoritative source of precisely what the construction material of the painted roof is, but it is most likely SMC. One might hypothesize that the glass filled material may have an extremely low coeffecient of linear thermal expansion, and this could perhaps explain why the polycarbonate works, while the painted panel fails on the same magnesium frame.

Maybe.

MG THX ~ 26 um/m/C
Lexan ~ 70 um/m/C
SMC ~ 3.6-25 um/m/C (depends on grade and composition)

Or, rather than the CTE, it could be another physical property - the Lexan may be able to 'give' with the MG frame, whereas the SMC is by design very stiff?

Or, if we now believe that the substrate is different (SMC vs polycarbonate), the adhesive chosen may play the critical role...?

I guess I'll say it for myself before someone else says it for me -- I may very well be dumber after having read through all this than when I started


GM -- please just fix our roofs!


" The redesigned 2005 Chevrolet Corvette (upper photo) attracted a lot of attention, with SMC in the hood, doors, rear quarter panels, roof and reinforced RIM in the fascia and fenders." [emphasis added]
http://www.compositesworld.com/ct/is...4/February/363

Last edited by TrackNoob; 06-11-2006 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 06-11-2006, 06:10 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killrwheels@Autogeek
I want to claim the Lemon Law but cannot get a clear answer as to where and how to file. No booklet was in car. Car was sold by a Texas dealer under an order (allocation) and shipped to Florida dealer upon build. Do I look to Texas or Florida for Lemon Law ?????
The Lemon Law applies to you in the state the car was sold in (Florida in your case) - AS LONG as you were the one purchasing (first registering) the Vette.

Go to Florida.Gov - you should be able to find a link, or check the Fl State sites.
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Old 06-11-2006, 06:40 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Killrwheels@Autogeek
I have used Lou Bachrodt (Coconut Creek) for more than 10 years, I even had some of my non-chevy units there for oil changes. Recently, within the last year, they changed Service Managers. They fired one of their best Assistant Managers Dave ... and Brad has become the God of Service. Since then, nothing is easy with them.

I truly value Kasey as my service writer. Maybe he is too blame, but I seriously doubt it. He is always on top of my repairs, and has tried to do as Dave has with me prior. Infact, I recently sent a letter of praise to the dealer and hoped they would consider him for advancement. I have his personal home email, and when my wife or I call, he is always apologetic for any issue. But he has to follow the new regimine of Hitler (Brad) the Service Manager.

The rental car issue is the topping on the cake. Brad is simply being a true azz because GM is once again involved. And likely Chevy is pointing the finger at the dealer as this is the third replacement roof. I have actually had more than 3 people using other local dealers and yourself as an example that a rental CAN be assigned and car can be stored at home without issue. (dealer WONT accept full liability or it would be a non-issue) . Im not going to use the car ... and should not have to use wifes car while after a warranty issue involving safety has been verified !!
I feel your pain on this. My wife gave me a ration of sh...... this morning because she wanted to go to the forum cruise to Jupiter and of course my C6 is undriveable. She really could not understand why the warranty loaner vehicle was not another C6. She was actually shocked that another vette was not offered

Just curious, my top separated from the front and the wind was able to get underneath and separate it that way. Mine is always garaged but had to sit outside for 2 days and that is when I noticied the "creaking" and "groaning" noises. Drove it a couple days and then one day on the Sawgrass I could hear and feel the wind start to come in directly from the front. Yours looks very different, what do you think happened to your's?
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Old 06-11-2006, 07:25 PM   #98
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Yours looks very different, what do you think happened to your's?
All three panels (stock panel and two replacements) have all started to delaminate first at the passenger side rear just right of the rear locking mechanism. They were all noticed by sound first, and truthfully Dave at Bachrodt showed me the signs of it on the stock top. The panel actually moves away from the frame and what was once locked together with an adhesive/glue is now bowing out and away from the frame.

This third panel was diagnosed the same way. It started to creak loudly (like stryofoam being rubbed together) and I took it in for diagnosis a week past on Weds/Thurs. (why they needed to keep the car is unknown, but since on vacation no biggie). Car was then returned, with roof ordered, and sat in garage till Monday. Within two days in the sun for around 8-10 hours daily, the passenger side completely let go from rear latch around to side and back to around the middle of the front. I dont believe the dealer did anything, as nothing was noticed on Monday. I thought about leaving it in the sun this coming week (if this lousy tropical storm passes) just to see if the final side will let loose naturally.
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:08 PM   #99
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Reading all the posts it seems like exposure to direct sunlight even in moderate temperatures ( not the worst of the summer yet ) for a couple of days greatly accelerates the delam process. Some have speculated that owners in colder northern areas might not see this as soon.

However, even northern states and provinces have a number of back to back really hot sunny days each season. If that's all it takes then .....most all will soon fail.

My humble suggestion is that all C6 owners who have painted roofs should make it a point to park their cars in the sun for several days as soon as possible this summer. If it's gonna happen it might as well happen sooner rather than later when the warranty is inforce and the recall is still open. But how could you take one of these cars on a long summer trip even with a fixed painted roof? Just too dangerous. However, I wonder what percent of owners know NOTHING about the problem and for whom it is a total surprise when the top goes bam!

GM must have really dreaded the national recall notice since it probably informed lots of owners who were living in total ignorance of the potential ( or likely ) problem. I mean, after all, who would ever think that Chevrolet would sell its flagship car with such a pervasive defect?

It's just not something people expect.
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:39 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachane
After reading all of these roof-threads, I am coming to the conclusion that since Chevrolet apparently doesn't know how to fix the problem reliably, the bottom line for those of us who want solid roofs is:

(1) Buy a clear top (a second one if you already have one).

(2) Take it to a good body shop and have it painted to match the car.

(3) Take it to a good auto upholstery shop and have it insulated/lined as desired.

(4) Use worry-free.

Yes, expensive. But at least you can then relax while everyone is stressed out about their factory solid tops for the next ? years while Chevrolet is screwing around trying different brands of chewing gum, etc. As an incidental benefit, you'll also have a lighter-weight solid top.
Perhaps the dumbest comment I have heard. I pay 50K plus for the "premier" car of its kind (and I love the car). The roof is defective from the manufacturer, and you suggest I pay for the solution? GM is paying for my rental (projected 30 days, a new roof, and a paint job that had better match!)
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Old 06-11-2006, 11:39 PM
 
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