Lug Nuts "Turning/Sticking/Turning"
05-07-2013, 05:40 PM
#41
Safety Car
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The reasons have already been stated. The loading of the fastener is totally different if the threads have been lubricated. As the owner's manual states, do not lubricate the threads.
That is not to say that thread lubricants are always bad. But in the case of lug studs and nuts, just say no.
That is not to say that thread lubricants are always bad. But in the case of lug studs and nuts, just say no.
05-07-2013, 05:43 PM
#42
There really is no debate, there's technically correct and incorrect. That said, for non-critical fasteners it probably doesn't matter a lot. However, if you use your approach for some internal engine and trans fasteners, ring gear bolts, and the like and ignore whether they're supposed to be torqued wet or dry you will learn a very expensive lesson the hard way. The more critical the fastener and components the more important it is. I've worked in the military and nuclear power fields, and if anyone ignored the wet or dry part of torque specs they'd be in huge trouble and probably unemployed. Same with working in aviation.
Feel free to keep posting that you know better and ignore the specs, but that just makes you look silly.
Feel free to keep posting that you know better and ignore the specs, but that just makes you look silly.
In my past life and back in the days, there were 700 strong well schooled machinist in the machine shop. Out of these 700 +s, will be 2 dz skimmed off the top from the pool and ultimately become Nuclear Machinist after extensive training and frequent requailifications. Then, Nuclear Toolmaker shop of 12 will maintain their workforce by skimming from the primo Nuke Machinist - one at a time. Anyone works in a machine shop can call himself a machinist - but like everything, there is machinist and there is Machinist.
I don't think some of the posters here came from that discipline. And if they did, they would've known better in regards to lubing on engineered dry install specimens.
The reasons have already been stated. The loading of the fastener is totally different if the threads have been lubricated. As the owner's manual states, do not lubricate the threads.
That is not to say that thread lubricants are always bad. But in the case of lug studs and nuts, just say no.
That is not to say that thread lubricants are always bad. But in the case of lug studs and nuts, just say no.
Like there is a place and time for everything.
---
Gearhead, if the culprit is the wheel side, you can easily make a simple jig with your stock lug nut by using two sided tape and emery to resurface the mating surface, using the wheel stud to maintain concentricity - like lapping a valve seat, just don't go hog wild with aggressive grits. Easy breezy after the root cause is found, that is.
05-13-2013, 04:10 PM
#43
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St. Jude Donor '13
PROBLEM SOLVED
Combining several of the suggestions above, I did it this way:
Removed the nuts and wheels, then hand-spun each nut back onto the same stud it came off from. All 20 of them went on easily except for a few that got just a little sticky as they went into the "new" thread area that had never been used before, as they bottomed out. Even those ones took only a slight twist with my fingers. Threads on the studs looked clean and un-distorted with casual inspection.
Used a hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surface of each nut. Some of them had some some roughness or pitting. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better. I didn't have a brush for the inside of the nuts, but they looked very good.
Used a conical hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surfaces of each wheel hole. All of them looked slightly rough or scratched. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better.
Used a paint-safe brake cleaner on the wheel holes, studs, nuts, etc; then blew them thoroughly dry with the air gun.
After placing the wheels back on the studs, I used the air gun again to remove any flakes that might have been shaved off by the stud threads. Hand-installed the nuts, then torqued in a 40-80-100 star pattern.
All of the nuts went on smoothly, and all of them torqued smoothly to 100.
Thanks for all the help!
Combining several of the suggestions above, I did it this way:
Removed the nuts and wheels, then hand-spun each nut back onto the same stud it came off from. All 20 of them went on easily except for a few that got just a little sticky as they went into the "new" thread area that had never been used before, as they bottomed out. Even those ones took only a slight twist with my fingers. Threads on the studs looked clean and un-distorted with casual inspection.
Used a hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surface of each nut. Some of them had some some roughness or pitting. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better. I didn't have a brush for the inside of the nuts, but they looked very good.
Used a conical hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surfaces of each wheel hole. All of them looked slightly rough or scratched. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better.
Used a paint-safe brake cleaner on the wheel holes, studs, nuts, etc; then blew them thoroughly dry with the air gun.
After placing the wheels back on the studs, I used the air gun again to remove any flakes that might have been shaved off by the stud threads. Hand-installed the nuts, then torqued in a 40-80-100 star pattern.
All of the nuts went on smoothly, and all of them torqued smoothly to 100.
Thanks for all the help!
05-13-2013, 05:05 PM
#44
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St. Jude Donor '15
"In honor of jpee"
very interesting. I've read the whole thread. and clean but "dry."
05-13-2013, 06:10 PM
#45
PROBLEM SOLVED
Combining several of the suggestions above, I did it this way:
Removed the nuts and wheels, then hand-spun each nut back onto the same stud it came off from. All 20 of them went on easily except for a few that got just a little sticky as they went into the "new" thread area that had never been used before, as they bottomed out. Even those ones took only a slight twist with my fingers. Threads on the studs looked clean and un-distorted with casual inspection.
Used a hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surface of each nut. Some of them had some some roughness or pitting. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better. I didn't have a brush for the inside of the nuts, but they looked very good.
Used a conical hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surfaces of each wheel hole. All of them looked slightly rough or scratched. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better.
Used a paint-safe brake cleaner on the wheel holes, studs, nuts, etc; then blew them thoroughly dry with the air gun.
After placing the wheels back on the studs, I used the air gun again to remove any flakes that might have been shaved off by the stud threads. Hand-installed the nuts, then torqued in a 40-80-100 star pattern.
All of the nuts went on smoothly, and all of them torqued smoothly to 100.
Thanks for all the help!
Combining several of the suggestions above, I did it this way:
Removed the nuts and wheels, then hand-spun each nut back onto the same stud it came off from. All 20 of them went on easily except for a few that got just a little sticky as they went into the "new" thread area that had never been used before, as they bottomed out. Even those ones took only a slight twist with my fingers. Threads on the studs looked clean and un-distorted with casual inspection.
Used a hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surface of each nut. Some of them had some some roughness or pitting. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better. I didn't have a brush for the inside of the nuts, but they looked very good.
Used a conical hand-held wire brush on the conical seating surfaces of each wheel hole. All of them looked slightly rough or scratched. The brush didn't make them shiney-smooth, but they are better.
Used a paint-safe brake cleaner on the wheel holes, studs, nuts, etc; then blew them thoroughly dry with the air gun.
After placing the wheels back on the studs, I used the air gun again to remove any flakes that might have been shaved off by the stud threads. Hand-installed the nuts, then torqued in a 40-80-100 star pattern.
All of the nuts went on smoothly, and all of them torqued smoothly to 100.
Thanks for all the help!
Using steel wire brush on alloy conical seating surface is in reality, doing more harm than good. Aluminum alloy is soft by nature - existed condition was caused by original lug nut, probably mixed with foreign contaminants/or the alloy surface had bad finish, during torquing, dug into soft alloy seating surface and the sacrificial surface was the aluminum alloy, being the weakest link.
Certainly it will remove existing surface imperfections. However, under magnification, wire brushed area will certainly induced its own undesirable surface damages. Those damages will accelerate future problems with galling.
Long term fix should have been gradually restore seating surface, eliminate surface abnormality by using decreasing grade emery, then final polish to further reduce peaks and valleys, all the while maintaining seat mating angle. Further, ensuring all fastener mating surface are indeed positively free from contaminates prior to use.
Maybe some others following this can benefit from your experience.
05-13-2013, 07:49 PM
#46
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St. Jude Donor '13
You could be correct. However-
I just looked at the seating surfaces for the nuts on my original factory wheels. They were installed when the car was made, never removed except about a year later they were taken off and stored in my indoors shop. The surfaces look about the same as the ones I just cleaned up.
If the problem returns, then I plan to use the method you suggested for resurfacing the seats. If it doesn't return, then I'll just keep motoring.
I just looked at the seating surfaces for the nuts on my original factory wheels. They were installed when the car was made, never removed except about a year later they were taken off and stored in my indoors shop. The surfaces look about the same as the ones I just cleaned up.
If the problem returns, then I plan to use the method you suggested for resurfacing the seats. If it doesn't return, then I'll just keep motoring.
11-07-2014, 08:41 PM
#48
Safety Car
Running a die (like a tap) on the wheel stud threads every once in awhile will also help to keep them nice and clean.
Not sure off the top of my head what the correct size is though, sorry.
Not sure off the top of my head what the correct size is though, sorry.
11-07-2014, 09:45 PM
#49
Le Mans Master
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I used anti-seize when putting the wheels back on, I personally think its a good idea
NSF
11-07-2014, 09:58 PM
#50
Drifting
11-23-2014, 03:00 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
Here comes another opinion. You said it happens when you get them almost torqued. I take it the nut is running down smooth till that point. To me that indicates the threads are ok. Look at the tapered seat area of the nut and the wheel. Those surfaces should be smooth, but I believe that is where you will find your galling and it is causing the dragging feeling you are getting. Hopefully its just on the nuts and your extra set will cure your problem.
I cant agree more.
11-23-2014, 03:18 PM
#52
Same here....cept been doing it for about 40 years. And in all that time I have never heard the term "Dry Torque" and I have torqued a whole lot of nuts & bolts. Some of them probably had some kind of lube on them also. Considering the actual physics involved in torque, which is simply the amount of clamping and/or stretching force involved usually created by two angled surfaces (screws...etc.) twisting against each other, I would love to hear how lubrication changes these values ? I understand that lubrication makes it easier to extend/overrun the values....but how does lube change the actual torque ??