Very interesting discussion about meth injection
03-02-2012, 03:11 AM
#1
Very interesting discussion about meth injection
This my have been discussed before but I found it very interesting so I figured I would post it.
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forc...ection-491444/
Julio who is the owner of alkycontrol, the meth kit that most forum members buy from ECS, states the adding meth injection to pump gas can result in a fuel equal to that of C16 race gas. This is very interesting as most people will tell you the high compression boosted builds require race gas. So does this mean that a high compression, high boost build that would normally require race gas to fend off detonation can be done with pump gas and meth injection?
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forc...ection-491444/
Julio who is the owner of alkycontrol, the meth kit that most forum members buy from ECS, states the adding meth injection to pump gas can result in a fuel equal to that of C16 race gas. This is very interesting as most people will tell you the high compression boosted builds require race gas. So does this mean that a high compression, high boost build that would normally require race gas to fend off detonation can be done with pump gas and meth injection?
03-02-2012, 08:15 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
This my have been discussed before but I found it very interesting so I figured I would post it.
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forc...ection-491444/
Julio who is the owner of alkycontrol, the meth kit that most forum members buy from ECS, states the adding meth injection to pump gas can result in a fuel equal to that of C16 race gas. This is very interesting as most people will tell you the high compression boosted builds require race gas. So does this mean that a high compression, high boost build that would normally require race gas to fend off detonation can be done with pump gas and meth injection?
http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/forc...ection-491444/
Julio who is the owner of alkycontrol, the meth kit that most forum members buy from ECS, states the adding meth injection to pump gas can result in a fuel equal to that of C16 race gas. This is very interesting as most people will tell you the high compression boosted builds require race gas. So does this mean that a high compression, high boost build that would normally require race gas to fend off detonation can be done with pump gas and meth injection?
I believe meth has about an octane of 110, but its diluted so much by the normal amount of gas that this isn't realized.
The main benefit of meth is the lower IATs result in lower cylinder temps and less potential to knock.
Meth is better then race gas to me in for the following reasons:
only used when needed
Cheaper then race gas, most of the time easier to acquire
Its temp lowering properties reduce the heat soak seen by boosted engines in areas of high ambient temp.
Maybe the pump can fail but as long as your tuner put in the fail safes and you check your system before going hard there should be no issue. Lots of people are reaping the benefit of meth both in the vette and not vette world.
Last edited by SinisterC6; 03-02-2012 at 09:32 AM.
03-02-2012, 09:19 AM
#4
Le Mans Master
Water is less toxic then meth tho, meth has been shown to act as a nerve toxin and indicated in blindness. If your hands start feeling tingley you need to get away.
03-02-2012, 09:24 AM
#5
Premium Supporting Vendor
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Most methanol is listed as 110 octane last I checked, but it's also things like lower IAT's that also help with detonation.
03-02-2012, 09:28 AM
#6
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VP doesn't state any octane ratings on any of their methanol products.
Specification Sheet: M1 Methanol
Specific Gravity: .795 @ 60 ° F
Color: Clear & Bright
RVP: 4.60
Oxygen Content: 49.93%
Purity: 99.85% minimum
Production: Elmendorf, Texas USA
Availability: Sealed Drums
Rev 02/05
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing.html
Specification Sheet: M1 Methanol
Specific Gravity: .795 @ 60 ° F
Color: Clear & Bright
RVP: 4.60
Oxygen Content: 49.93%
Purity: 99.85% minimum
Production: Elmendorf, Texas USA
Availability: Sealed Drums
Rev 02/05
http://www.vpracingfuels.com/vp-drag-racing.html
03-02-2012, 09:32 AM
#7
Le Mans Master
03-02-2012, 09:56 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
I know that a meth dependent tune let me go from 10psi to 15psi sans knock. Knock is caused because knock is the result of gas prematurely exploding due to high temps in the cylinder. Race gas works by being resistant to knock (a measurement of octane).
I believe meth has about an octane of 110, but its diluted so much by the normal amount of gas that this isn't realized.
The main benefit of meth is the lower IATs result in lower cylinder temps and less potential to knock.
Meth is better then race gas to me in for the following reasons:
only used when needed
Cheaper then race gas, most of the time easier to acquire
Its temp lowering properties reduce the heat soak seen by boosted engines in areas of high ambient temp.
Maybe the pump can fail but as long as your tuner put in the fail safes and you check your system before going hard there should be no issue. Lots of people are reaping the benefit of meth both in the vette and not vette world.
I believe meth has about an octane of 110, but its diluted so much by the normal amount of gas that this isn't realized.
The main benefit of meth is the lower IATs result in lower cylinder temps and less potential to knock.
Meth is better then race gas to me in for the following reasons:
only used when needed
Cheaper then race gas, most of the time easier to acquire
Its temp lowering properties reduce the heat soak seen by boosted engines in areas of high ambient temp.
Maybe the pump can fail but as long as your tuner put in the fail safes and you check your system before going hard there should be no issue. Lots of people are reaping the benefit of meth both in the vette and not vette world.
03-02-2012, 10:05 AM
#9
Le Mans Master
How to test an ECS meth injection kit
With engine on and idling depress the "test" button on your controller for 3-5 seconds. Your led status light will illuminate red, the engine will bog and if you have gauges for AFR or IAT you will see the AFR go 1-1.5 points richer (13.1 to 11.5) and you IATs will drop into the 50s*
Another way would be to turn the car on with engine off and pressurize your vaccum lines and look for meth blasting out of the nozzles
Another way would be to turn the car on with engine off and pressurize your vaccum lines and look for meth blasting out of the nozzles
03-02-2012, 11:05 AM
#10
Burning Brakes
With engine on and idling depress the "test" button on your controller for 3-5 seconds. Your led status light will illuminate red, the engine will bog and if you have gauges for AFR or IAT you will see the AFR go 1-1.5 points richer (13.1 to 11.5) and you IATs will drop into the 50s*
Another way would be to turn the car on with engine off and pressurize your vaccum lines and look for meth blasting out of the nozzles
Another way would be to turn the car on with engine off and pressurize your vaccum lines and look for meth blasting out of the nozzles
03-02-2012, 03:20 PM
#12
ECS/Alkycontrol kits are made for 100% meth. What I have run since 2006 without a single pump failure...3 different cars. I can't speak for anyother makes.
03-02-2012, 03:35 PM
#13
Let me first say that water does not have an octane of 0. It technically has an infinite octane as no matter how high you heat it up or how much you squeeze it, it will never ignite. I know the water vs meth debate has been beaten to death before but I personally don't agree with the outcome. Is one better then the other? Yes but it depends on its use. Pure meth is great for bringing the ait's down as well as adding more fuel. Whenever you spray meth, and you fuel delivery stays the same, your arf will go down. No matter how much meth you spray and no matter how high of an octane we can agree on that is has, you will never result in an overall octane higher than methanol itself and that is only if you use it as a primarily fuel. When it comes to waster and its essentially infinite octane, while it may not be as good as lowering ait's as water it is better at slowing down the burn rate inside the composition chamber and reducing or preventing detonation. Pure water injection actually came about back in WWII for use in airplanes for fend off detonation problems. The army core of engineers shortly switch to a 50/50 mix of water and meth, but not because they found it better than pure water, but because they had problems with the water freezing.
In short if you are looking to lower ait's and add a bit more fuel them pure meth is the way to go. If you are looking to push the limits on regular pump gas, then running pure water and turning up the boost is best.
In short if you are looking to lower ait's and add a bit more fuel them pure meth is the way to go. If you are looking to push the limits on regular pump gas, then running pure water and turning up the boost is best.
03-03-2012, 12:43 AM
#14
Tech Contributor
I know that a meth dependent tune let me go from 10psi to 15psi sans knock. Knock is caused because knock is the result of gas prematurely exploding due to high temps in the cylinder. Race gas works by being resistant to knock (a measurement of octane).
I believe meth has about an octane of 110, but its diluted so much by the normal amount of gas that this isn't realized.
The main benefit of meth is the lower IATs result in lower cylinder temps and less potential to knock.
Meth is better then race gas to me in for the following reasons:
only used when needed
Cheaper then race gas, most of the time easier to acquire
Its temp lowering properties reduce the heat soak seen by boosted engines in areas of high ambient temp.
Maybe the pump can fail but as long as your tuner put in the fail safes and you check your system before going hard there should be no issue. Lots of people are reaping the benefit of meth both in the vette and not vette world.
I believe meth has about an octane of 110, but its diluted so much by the normal amount of gas that this isn't realized.
The main benefit of meth is the lower IATs result in lower cylinder temps and less potential to knock.
Meth is better then race gas to me in for the following reasons:
only used when needed
Cheaper then race gas, most of the time easier to acquire
Its temp lowering properties reduce the heat soak seen by boosted engines in areas of high ambient temp.
Maybe the pump can fail but as long as your tuner put in the fail safes and you check your system before going hard there should be no issue. Lots of people are reaping the benefit of meth both in the vette and not vette world.
0? It's inert. Water vaporizes and absorbs heat energy thus chemically cooling the air around it. Meth is combustible, and has a higher heat latency (ability to absorb heat) then water.
Water is less toxic then meth tho, meth has been shown to act as a nerve toxin and indicated in blindness. If your hands start feeling tingley you need to get away.
Water is less toxic then meth tho, meth has been shown to act as a nerve toxin and indicated in blindness. If your hands start feeling tingley you need to get away.
The octane of meth can be realized when used in our systems. It depends on how much you spray vs. how much gasoline you're using. Just a few of octane points can help out a great deal.
Methanol has ~ than half the heat latency that water does. Cylinder pressure is a huge factor in knock because it affects the speed of the burn, which affects the need to change the ignition timing events. Lower octane fuel will require lower ignition timing. Lower ignition timing raises cylinder temperatures. That's why we can't all have 18:1 motors or run 25psi boost and simply adjust the timing for it and have the engine live.
Pre-ignition is the result of fuel being burned too early, caused by over advanced timing (causes pressure spikes and added heat), hot spots such as glowing spark plugs, or overheated exhaust valves or even sharp edges on piston tops or on the combustion chamber. Higher octane fuels are resistant to knock because they burn slower and have more net energy per unit than pump gas.
The fact is that fuel pumps can fail and wreck a motor too. Since putting the sleeves on the meth pumps, I don't think Julio has had one failure on a pump, although some of the older non-sleeved pumps still trickle in from time to time. There are many great mechanics out there that suck at wiring. That's one reason I believe meth injection has gotten a bad rap. There are also substandard meth injection systems on the market. I trust a well engineered, properly installed methanol injection system as much as I trust my other fuel systems. You're right that tuners can tune for added safety in the event of a methanol flow failure.
