irun4cops

I consider myself a pretty classy person, not one to talk bad about anyone, but there is a problem that I have PERSONALLY remedied on 4 lingenfelter high horsepower cars over the past 10 years that is a SERIOUS, engine killing problem.

My encounter today with lingenfelter really set me over the edge, so I have no hesitations any longer in describing their flaw, because I have been explaining it to them for 7 years, and they still continue to do it on their cars. Im amazed no one else has made a thread about this yet.

THE PROBLEM:

If you buy a Lingenfelter twin turbo or even a supercharged car that makes 600+hp at the wheels, you may notice on the forum that other guys with similar builds are making more power with similar hardware.

*This is because Lingenfelter does not upgrade fuel systems properly.

In addition...

*Lingenfelter puts INTENTIONAL BOOST LEAKS and BOOST RESTRICTIONS upon building their cars, which COINCIDENTALLY limit the cars boost to just below peak fuel at top rpm on the dyno.... which keeps them from running lean and exploding.

Why is this bad?

If you were to happen to fix one of these leaks, or your mechanic ACCIDENTLY fixes one of these leaks, if he has to take off one of your boost pipes...
your engine runs lean and detonates.

Why do they do they not fix the leaks, or rather, why do they intentionally create the leaks at Lingenfelter?

Because they dont go the extra mile and upgrade the fuel systems on all of their high horspower cars. Thats where their "Performance Engineering" forgot to "Engineer"

Another problem is, the turbos, engine, backpressures... everything is still receiving almost full stress, but the boosted air is going to atmosphere.

So what is my basis for this crazy claim?
How much air is being leaked off?
And how big of a swing in power are we talking?

My family owns 3 chevrolet stores, among 18 other franchise. 2 we recently sold in the past few years. But at one point, we employed 50+ GM certified mechanics, that I have at my disposal to pick appart these cars and see where they are flawed. I also visit other shops in the central ohio area, and see them bumping into problems with lingenfelter vettes as well.

Here are the 4 cars I have personally had my hands on...

1. 1999 Orange Flame Paint job Lingenfelter twin turbo vette with a 427 c5r racing block and black ostrich skin interior. I came across this car in the year 2005. It was making less than 640 at the wheels. We noticed there were these strange slice marks in the boost pipe where it was hard to be seen or noticed. A local shop replaced the boost piping. Put the car on the dyno... the car ran out of fuel around 5000rpm.

Let me repeat. The car ran out of fuel, at 5000rpm. Twin 30mm turbos, on a 427, with an open checkbook to lingenfelter when it was build (ostrich interior folks, orange flame custome paint job like youd see on a harley)

And 1... walbro 255 pump in the tank.

We added another 255 into the stock canister (a custom fabrication) and the car went back to the dyno and made over 800 at the wheels.

2. 2002 Black z06 twin turbo. Car made 670 at the wheels. Boost leaks fixed. Car ran out of fuel at 5200 rpm. Fuel system upgraded, car made 780 at the wheels. Car originally left lingenfelter with 1 255 pump.

3. 2006 red Supercharged lingenfelter c6 ls2. Car made 630hp at the wheels. Boost leaks fixed... Car ran out of fuel at 5600 rpm. Fuel system upgraded, car makes 730hp at the wheels.

4. My most recent lingenfelter vette, which i had up for sale, but i decided to keep it, and can be seen here on the forum with the large wing on the back... a 2007 Black twin turbo z06 ls7.

*ALL THAT I IMPROVED WAS THE NOEPRENE COUPLERS THAT GO FROM THE INTERCOOLER TO THE THROTTLE BODY, that we could tell were loose and we could hear them hiss, and see where the oil was spraying out (ill explain the oil in a second)

CAR RAN OUT OF FUEL AT 5200RPM. At that point, it was at 670 torque, and the HP curve had not yet crossed the torque curve. Please, let me repeat...

*ALL THAT I IMPROVED WAS THE NOEPRENE COUPLERS THAT GO FROM THE INTERCOOLER TO THE THROTTLE BODY.

I installed a customized RSI tripple in tank pump (only 2 pumps run, but the other pump is there to turn on in the event one of the other 2 255 pumps fail.)

Car is making just under 800 at the wheels now.

Ready for this? There are still MORE boost leaks and restrictions to be remedied, as Lingenfelter runs RESTRICTIVE SOFT pipe from the turbos, forward, to the intercooler.

ALL OF THESE CARS ARE $30,000+ Lingenfelter recipt cars. 2 have over $70,000 in recipts.

$70,000 dollars, and the worlds premier corvette shop can't spare the dime to install a second fuel pump? Or maybe they are just scared to ask for 1000 more dollars to fabricate up an in tank pump setup and install a second pump? .. after they have asked for +$30,000 to do everything else, like forge a motor that is at the mercy of an ambitious chevy technician who notices a leak in the boost piping and fixes it.

As I stated earlier, this problem has been going on for quite some time... my evidence says from 99-07

Im creating this thread, because i want to see just how common this problem is, or if i just won the bad luck lottery, and had their only 4 cars they made a mistake on.

Now, i cant speak for their latest and greatest Lingenfelter creations, but what I am saying is...

If you have a lingenfelter car... there is a VERY GOOD CHANCE...
YOU NEED A BETTER FUEL SYSTEM.

Many shops are running the big aeromotive eliminator pumps, or boost a pumps, or inline pumps... all these have negative tradeoffs.

IT DRIVES ME INSANE... THAT THE SOLUTION IS SO SIMPLE TO PUT 2 PARALLEL IN TANK PUMPS, that dont overheat, IN THE TANK, AND SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

Put bigger fuel rails on the car and a bigger feed line, add a regulator and a return line.

*ALL 4 OF THESE LINGENFELTER CARS HAD THE STOCK FUEL LINES AND RAILS.

70,000 dollars in recipts.... do you think the customer said "no, i cant afford 200 dollar fuel rails!" ????

If you have had a lingenfelter engine come appart, I would seriously rewind in your mind, and figure out if there was a time that the boost piping or neoprene couplers may have been improved, and I can almost assure you, this is where your problem occured.

For lingenfelter to do this in the first place is plain lazy and dirty in my opinion.

One can argue it is an honest mistake, but how? Youre telling me every car they have ever put twn turbos on, NEVER NEEDED ANOTHER FUEL PUMP? You're telling me, they didnt realize "our other car that didnt leak needed 2 fuel pumps, maybe this one with twin turbos will as well?"

4 out of 4 cars ive put my hands on, hp numbers were coincidentally just shy of peak injector duty... and once we fixed the leaks, all ran out of fuel well before 6000rpm.

I have no reason to lie. My family owns 19 car dealerships in central ohio. I have mentioned this "problem" to lingenfelter several times over the past 7 years, and it appears, they frankly do not care.

If they have corrected this problem, great, but i dont see any threads, where they are warning previous customers with older pre 2007 cars, of this engine detonating situation (Assuming they fixed it after my black 2007 z06 i recently purchased.)

Frankly, i get a kick out of it, i keep buying up their used cars... investing a whole 3000 dollars on a bullet proof fuel system, and making roughly 100 to 200 more horsepower at the wheels, and also knowing the fuel system is far more reliable.

Dear Lingenfelter...
IF... you are going to install intentional boost leaks because you dont want your cars to run lean and run out of fuel because installing another fuel pump is too daunting of a task, maybe install a custome blow off/wastegate valve on the boost pipe so the customer at least knows whats going on.

Thank you.

VPR LOL

Cool story.

1320IN9

Nice write up.

0rodney@rpmtransmissions

"Lingenfelter puts INTENTIONAL BOOST LEAKS"

Please explain this intentional boost leak.... I personally have had more than one LPE Twin Turbo Corvette and never experienced any boost leaks.... I'm also pretty fimiliar with the entire set-up.


"If you were to happen to fix one of these leaks, or your mechanic ACCIDENTLY fixes one of these leaks, if he has to take off one of your boost pipes...
your engine runs lean and detonates."

Please explain....

On another note... My personal C6 Z06 with a stock fuel pump/lines/rails makes enough power to run a 9.29 @147 + in the 1/4 mile and also provides the fuel to support the extra HP it takes to turn the blower. That is enough fuel to support their most HP package of 800HP package. My 800 HP 427 LPE C6 Grand Sport has the upgraded GT30R's and has NO fueling issues.

tjwong

Hmmm, that is interesting. I own a shop as well, although nothing like what your family has. However I have worked on several LPE cars, two of which were their TT cars, one a 2001 Z06 with a C5R based 427. I found no incidences of what you described in this car, another a 2000 FRC TT car number 16 of their 650 BHP cars, it came in with oiling issues which was resolved by having LPE rebuild the turbos. That car made the spec'd whp within 10hp on my mustang dyno with no fueling issues or boost issues.

Another car which was a 2010 GS with their E Force package made within 5hp of their Mustang dyno sheet without any issues as well. I have several install pics of their C6 800hp package showing their upgraded fuel system installed which maybe going into my personal car.

Streetfast

REALLY

RichieRichZ06

This thread won't last long.

Pekka_Perkeles

As usual.

But this would be the right place to discuss about it.

Removing this thread does not remove it from the Internet. Sad but true.

gotz06?

Very interesting

CSIXX1

Lets take a look at your first example the car is a 1999 you came in touch with this car in 2005. Do you know the history of this car between 1999 and 2005? If not how can you blame the issues on Lingenfelter?

Le Mans Z06

I emailed Lingenfelter July 28th regarding their LS1 650hp TT package

(http://www.lingenfelter.com/engine-p...urbo-ls1-zo6-p)

In what "High capacity fuel delivery system" meant exactly. No response to date.

BLWN427

Motorhead-47

Pekka_Perkeles

Ok now?

I think these are irrelevant anyway.

BLWN427

I was referring to the hard to see cuts in the charge pipe. Ect ect.

Pekka_Perkeles

Ok, point taken.

Hopefully the discussion continues.

Ensoniq

Ibtl

Mike04

Pics?

irun4cops

how about videos instead.... give me a few minutes, busy day today...

irun4cops

the below videos are from back on november 11th 2011 as the video has the time stamp as its file name. This was shortly after bringing a recently aquired Lingnfelter 2007 z06 with twin 30mm turbo car from New Hampshire back to Columbus Ohio.

The person who sold it to me had not driven the car since lingenfelter had touched it up.

The backstory is, he installed an electronic oil pump on the turbo system, which did not work, so lingenfelter had to put a mechanical pump back on the car for him, and repair the turbos.

Once the car got back to him, he wrecked his c5 into the wall at a race track, cracking his ribs. In addition to not being able to turn a steering wheel for a few months, he also found out he had terminal cancer in his throat.

His wife made him put this car up for sale.

I came across it, and went in person to pick it up from him. It was stored inside, and in perfect condition, and the milage matched up within 200 miles of the most recent lingenfelter recipt... meaning, he did not drive this car much from the time it was delivered to the time i bought it.

morning tUpon my return to ohio with my newly aquired toy, the serpintine belt started whipping around under the hood, and i pulled over immediately. Upon popping the hood, i could see the belt was coming appart.

I got towed to a chevy shop. Next hey installed a new belt and tensioner. By the time i got back to ohio, it was apparent the new belt was coming appart on one side... so I called lingenfelter to trouble shoot. Talked to Kevin... who is no longer there now.

Kevin explained that perhaps the pulleys werent lined up... and this was infact the problem. I had to put a couple spacers on the oil pump to make it line up correctly.

Havent had an issue since.

However, when that pump didnt spin properly the first time the belt frayed, it took out the oil seals on the drivers side turbo, which leaked oil.

Technically, this was a problem lingenfelter caused, but i chalked it up and didnt give them greif... never wrote a bad thing on the forum. They never offered to fix the turbos, even though the car was within 700 miles of the time it left their shop on the odometer, and the problem was obviously the alignement of the pulleys.

However, the oil from the turbo, that came up the boost side through the intercooler, you could see it coming out of the boost pipe to the throttle body, literally spraying everywhere... meaning there had to be a serious leak.

... This obviously didnt surprise me. It did everyone else, but not me since this is the 4th time ive encountered this.

So, we put TIGHTER couplers on the boost pipe between the intercooler and throttle body, and put the car on the dyno at IPS motorsports (not giving them props over lingenfelter, just stating facts on which dyno I am using in the videos below)

We ran out of fuel. Car was lean by 5400 rpm, so we rev limited it to 5200 as you can hear us talking about in the video. HP was around 650 and torque was around 677 at the wheels. Curves had not yet even crossed.

First we thought... bigger injectors... so we put in some 1150cc expensive EV or whatever they are called that the tuners love.

Still, the same problem.

So i assumed, (even though I had already encountered this problem before on 3 other cars) "well, maybe there were 2 pumps in the car, and one died?"

So we pulled the tank.

(1) 255 in the stock canister.

So I call the guy I bought it from and asked him how much power the car made at 7000rpm when it left lingenfelter. Coincidently, it made 660 at the wheels, from the original day it left lingenfelter. By simply fixing the leak that was made apparent by the oil from a melted turbo seal... which was spraying out of the boost pipe...

We made more torque than that by 5200 rpm, and were out of fuel.

I put an rsi tripple in tank pump setup in the car, where EACH pump is on a seperate fuse, so I run 2 pumps, and in the event one of those 2 ever fail, with the flip of a switch, I can activate the 3rd pump, keeping me from an unnecessary visit to the shop to have my tanks dropped. (costs less just to install the 3rd pump and keep it shut off and ready to be turned on, than to re drop the drivers tank in the event one of the other 2 fail)

(I also eventually fix the turbos of course, but this video was still on the turbos it left lingenfelters shop with)

Here are the videos of the car running out of fuel on IPS's dyno... AFTER we installed the bigger injectors, but before the rsi fuel system and rails. At this point the car still had stock fuel rails, stock feed lines, dead end fuel system, and 1 in tank 255 pump...

or maybe im lying?...

... maybe this is just a evil conspiracy to make lingenfelter look bad that i drempt up last november and waited until now to mention... ... sarcasm

Truth is, i ran into some other problems this week with their customer service people having attitudes and living in denail, and since their motors are really the only thing I have any interest in these days since all their other parts are simply brought in from other vendors like pfadt and rpm trans, etc, and since there are plenty of other engine builders out there who are just as capable... this is where i break my silence about a problem they have had a very long time to solve... and they have not, as of 2007.... on an open checkbook car.

pfadt coil overs, pfadt adjustable sway bars, fully built ls7 motor, 2500 dollar arp wing, 30mm turbos, ccw light weight wheels, level 5 trans and rear diff, output shafts, drive shaft.. roll bar... museum delivery car... signed by ron fellows on the dash... top of the line lingenfelter package... with 8000 miles on it. The list goes on... Enjoy... and sorry about the lack of pictures