Alky Control tuning really required?
06-17-2015, 10:57 PM
#41
Drifting
Thread Starter
If you don't want to be "meth dependent", then I'd be careful about adding more boost. If you want to do that, I'd plan on going through the tune more thoroughly. For a beginner, what I suggested is very safe and almost fool-proof.
You could set it up ECS style and have it pull all the timing when IATs get over 100 or so. That's what Doug does to prevent his builds from going BOOM if the meth fails. It isn't perfect, but it can work and save your engine. I myself never found a way to balance it perfectly. If I set it too low, I'd get a nasty bog before the IATs would drop from the meth spray during street driving in warmer weather. Also happened after sitting in the staging lanes at the last 1/2 mile event I ran that car at. I ended up raising the timing pull to a higher temp, but then you're faced with a more likely possibility of engine damage -- as on a cooler day with good airflow over the intercooler you can see lower IATs even without the meth spraying. At least through a few gears. It's not perfect.
Then there's also the fact that you may need some tweaks to the MAF table or some other airflow tables if you're messing with engine airflow. It's usually not as simple as just adding boost.
Personally, I'd do what Dave and I recommended. Nozzle and adjust meth system for mid-high 10's across the board. Add some timing to the IAT spark table in a point where you'd only reach with active meth flow. Believe me, it's going to make a lot more power than it does now at someplace like the strip. Not only will you get the full timing Dave intended in your original tune, but you'll be getting some extra power in a very safe way. If the meth fails, it won't matter one bit.
My 2 cents anyway.
You could set it up ECS style and have it pull all the timing when IATs get over 100 or so. That's what Doug does to prevent his builds from going BOOM if the meth fails. It isn't perfect, but it can work and save your engine. I myself never found a way to balance it perfectly. If I set it too low, I'd get a nasty bog before the IATs would drop from the meth spray during street driving in warmer weather. Also happened after sitting in the staging lanes at the last 1/2 mile event I ran that car at. I ended up raising the timing pull to a higher temp, but then you're faced with a more likely possibility of engine damage -- as on a cooler day with good airflow over the intercooler you can see lower IATs even without the meth spraying. At least through a few gears. It's not perfect.
Then there's also the fact that you may need some tweaks to the MAF table or some other airflow tables if you're messing with engine airflow. It's usually not as simple as just adding boost.
Personally, I'd do what Dave and I recommended. Nozzle and adjust meth system for mid-high 10's across the board. Add some timing to the IAT spark table in a point where you'd only reach with active meth flow. Believe me, it's going to make a lot more power than it does now at someplace like the strip. Not only will you get the full timing Dave intended in your original tune, but you'll be getting some extra power in a very safe way. If the meth fails, it won't matter one bit.
My 2 cents anyway.
Last edited by Pitufina; 06-17-2015 at 11:06 PM.
06-18-2015, 12:40 AM
#42
Le Mans Master
Do not set the gain **** below "4" on the dial, the way the potentiometer works on the lower end of the range, it makes the activation a little sketchy and inconsistent. Really it's best to be around "5" on the dial or more for more stable operation of the pump. This came straight from Julio. Remember, the dial is just a "gain" for the pump, meaning how quick it sees voltage, it doesn't dictate pump output at max flow.. You'll have to play with nozzle sizes to dial in your afr if you're not going to change VE tables...
If your afr now is 11.7, a single M10 will likely get you 10.8-11.0 afr which is perfect for safety. I wouldn't run it any richer then that. You're just killing power past that. I'd also leave your timing where ever it's at now, don't get greedy, it can cost you.
Good luck.
If your afr now is 11.7, a single M10 will likely get you 10.8-11.0 afr which is perfect for safety. I wouldn't run it any richer then that. You're just killing power past that. I'd also leave your timing where ever it's at now, don't get greedy, it can cost you.
Good luck.
06-18-2015, 01:16 PM
#43
Drifting
Thread Starter
Do not set the gain **** below "4" on the dial, the way the potentiometer works on the lower end of the range, it makes the activation a little sketchy and inconsistent. Really it's best to be around "5" on the dial or more for more stable operation of the pump. This came straight from Julio. Remember, the dial is just a "gain" for the pump, meaning how quick it sees voltage, it doesn't dictate pump output at max flow.. You'll have to play with nozzle sizes to dial in your afr if you're not going to change VE tables...
If your afr now is 11.7, a single M10 will likely get you 10.8-11.0 afr which is perfect for safety. I wouldn't run it any richer then that. You're just killing power past that. I'd also leave your timing where ever it's at now, don't get greedy, it can cost you.
Good luck.
If your afr now is 11.7, a single M10 will likely get you 10.8-11.0 afr which is perfect for safety. I wouldn't run it any richer then that. You're just killing power past that. I'd also leave your timing where ever it's at now, don't get greedy, it can cost you.
Good luck.
Thanks for the advise
06-18-2015, 01:48 PM
#44
Safety Car
FWIW, I've set many of them to 2 or 3 with no inconsistency issues.
This does make me want to actually finish my digital controller though.
This does make me want to actually finish my digital controller though.
06-18-2015, 04:17 PM
#45
Drifting
I clearly saw a difference in the "laziness" of the pump activation below 5. I called Julio at Alkycontrol and he confirmed that there was the potential for this to occur at the lower settings.
06-18-2015, 06:24 PM
#46
Drifting
Thread Starter
How would that be connected? Take the place of the gain or progressive side, both? Thanks.
06-26-2015, 05:26 PM
#47
Drifting
Thread Starter
So I finally was able to read Dave's tune and noticed that IAT table is set to pull timing above 131*. A couple of things I found out regarding higher IATs was that the TiAL QR doesn't flow as well as the regular Q and also that the supercharger air filter cleanliness affects the IATs as well. After I cleaned the filter the IATs dropped considerably and since I was always under the suspicion that my TiAL QR was a restriction, I bought the lower part of the Q and swapped them over. Now IATs stay below 100* most of the time, even after a highway pull I didn't see more than 110* and it quickly goes down once below boost level.
I went to check on methanol sellers and to my surprise my local powersports dealer who is just about 1 mile from my home is a VP dealer. They can order it for me and that makes everything so much easier. They would sell me the 5 gal container for $48.
I went to check on methanol sellers and to my surprise my local powersports dealer who is just about 1 mile from my home is a VP dealer. They can order it for me and that makes everything so much easier. They would sell me the 5 gal container for $48.
06-26-2015, 08:40 PM
#48
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St. Jude Donor '15
So I finally was able to read Dave's tune and noticed that IAT table is set to pull timing above 131*. A couple of things I found out regarding higher IATs was that the TiAL QR doesn't flow as well as the regular Q and also that the supercharger air filter cleanliness affects the IATs as well. After I cleaned the filter the IATs dropped considerably and since I was always under the suspicion that my TiAL QR was a restriction, I bought the lower part of the Q and swapped them over. Now IATs stay below 100* most of the time, even after a highway pull I didn't see more than 110* and it quickly goes down once below boost level.
I went to check on methanol sellers and to my surprise my local powersports dealer who is just about 1 mile from my home is a VP dealer. They can order it for me and that makes everything so much easier. They would sell me the 5 gal container for $48.
I went to check on methanol sellers and to my surprise my local powersports dealer who is just about 1 mile from my home is a VP dealer. They can order it for me and that makes everything so much easier. They would sell me the 5 gal container for $48.
Pulling timing over 131 sounds pretty reasonable IMO
It's pretty interesting to see the air filter being clean made that much of a difference. I thought it would have been down on power/boost but didn't think it'd change IAT's that much. Guess I need to keep mine clean!
Are you still running the restrictor? What size pulley??
06-26-2015, 11:01 PM
#49
Drifting
Thread Starter
That's about right on the meth price... that's nearly exactly what I paid for 5 gallons of M1 actually. It lasts quite a while in my (limited) experience. I usually fill my reservoir up once a week and it's no where near empty. I didn't for a few weeks once and finally got the lower washer fluid thing to come on. You may drive a little harder than me though
Pulling timing over 131 sounds pretty reasonable IMO
It's pretty interesting to see the air filter being clean made that much of a difference. I thought it would have been down on power/boost but didn't think it'd change IAT's that much. Guess I need to keep mine clean!
Are you still running the restrictor? What size pulley??
Pulling timing over 131 sounds pretty reasonable IMO
It's pretty interesting to see the air filter being clean made that much of a difference. I thought it would have been down on power/boost but didn't think it'd change IAT's that much. Guess I need to keep mine clean!
Are you still running the restrictor? What size pulley??
I was actually surprised that it does pull the timing that high, but thinking about the time I went to the track I was seeing 133*+ so I was losing power for sure. Peak timing at max boost is 12 assuming the high octane table is where the base timing is set, so I was getting only 10* almost every pass at the track.
I still have the restrictor in place and untouched. Pulley is the 3.25. I see 9 pounds around 6.8k rpms
06-26-2015, 11:18 PM
#50
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St. Jude Donor '15
I'm just glad that I don't have to travel for too long to get the meth. I actually drive pretty sane while around town and the typical daily routine. The track is a different story because I beat the crap out of it, so I try to compensate while off the track.
I was actually surprised that it does pull the timing that high, but thinking about the time I went to the track I was seeing 133*+ so I was losing power for sure. Peak timing at max boost is 12 assuming the high octane table is where the base timing is set, so I was getting only 10* almost every pass at the track.
I still have the restrictor in place and untouched. Pulley is the 3.25. I see 9 pounds around 6.8k rpms
I was actually surprised that it does pull the timing that high, but thinking about the time I went to the track I was seeing 133*+ so I was losing power for sure. Peak timing at max boost is 12 assuming the high octane table is where the base timing is set, so I was getting only 10* almost every pass at the track.
I still have the restrictor in place and untouched. Pulley is the 3.25. I see 9 pounds around 6.8k rpms
Gotcha... My kit came with the 3.5" pulley for some reason, so that's why I was asking. Not sure why they included the 3.5 on mine. Seems most get the 3.25" one. Maybe because I was doing the install myself? Been thinking about going to 3.25 and leaving the restrictor plate in, hopefully giving me some extra in the mid-range without doing something crazy up top.
Just checked a log and I'm at around 6.4psi at 4800 RPM's. Haven't dug through enough logs to find higher than that yet though, so I'm not really sure what I'm at closer to red line. It does seem to be going up pretty quick from 4400 to 4800 though. I'm not planning on going much over 6K, especially with the current old valve springs/timing chain. Maybe after I get some upgrades
That is nice on the meth.. I have to drive over an hour to get mine, so that kind of sucks. At least it's on the way to a place I go for work every few weeks
Last edited by schpenxel; 06-26-2015 at 11:22 PM.
06-27-2015, 11:06 AM
#51
Drifting
Thread Starter
It would seem to me (and I'm no physicist) that hotter air would be less dense.. so even with the same amount of timing there would be less oxygen making it into the engine, so I think that would hurt power even with timing not being pulled
Gotcha... My kit came with the 3.5" pulley for some reason, so that's why I was asking. Not sure why they included the 3.5 on mine. Seems most get the 3.25" one. Maybe because I was doing the install myself? Been thinking about going to 3.25 and leaving the restrictor plate in, hopefully giving me some extra in the mid-range without doing something crazy up top.
Just checked a log and I'm at around 6.4psi at 4800 RPM's. Haven't dug through enough logs to find higher than that yet though, so I'm not really sure what I'm at closer to red line. It does seem to be going up pretty quick from 4400 to 4800 though. I'm not planning on going much over 6K, especially with the current old valve springs/timing chain. Maybe after I get some upgrades
That is nice on the meth.. I have to drive over an hour to get mine, so that kind of sucks. At least it's on the way to a place I go for work every few weeks
Gotcha... My kit came with the 3.5" pulley for some reason, so that's why I was asking. Not sure why they included the 3.5 on mine. Seems most get the 3.25" one. Maybe because I was doing the install myself? Been thinking about going to 3.25 and leaving the restrictor plate in, hopefully giving me some extra in the mid-range without doing something crazy up top.
Just checked a log and I'm at around 6.4psi at 4800 RPM's. Haven't dug through enough logs to find higher than that yet though, so I'm not really sure what I'm at closer to red line. It does seem to be going up pretty quick from 4400 to 4800 though. I'm not planning on going much over 6K, especially with the current old valve springs/timing chain. Maybe after I get some upgrades
That is nice on the meth.. I have to drive over an hour to get mine, so that kind of sucks. At least it's on the way to a place I go for work every few weeks
On your pulley size, I think that ECS maybe sends a slightly bigger pulley for the ls2? Since you are using meth I would do the 3.25. The reason I see boost that high is due to my full exhaust and cam. I bet that without the cam I would probably see 9psi but at around 6k or so.
You do drive a lot I see. Man I guess I'm lucky lol
Last edited by Pitufina; 06-27-2015 at 11:14 AM.
09-12-2015, 09:40 PM
#52
Drifting
Thread Starter
I left the gain **** right now in 3 since that's what Dave recommended and I was trying to install my wideband and the damn rear 02 sensors didn't want to come out. So everything on the WB is ready to be plugged in but I was just too tired and decided to finish the meth kit. The temps outside right now were 63* when I went for a test drive so the air is denser to begin with but once the alky kicks in I never saw more than 70*. One weird thing though, I tried moving the gain to 4 and hit it in 3rd gear and experienced knock. I don't know if it was due to the load of being in third gear or what?? Overall I was slipping and sliding with the gain **** in 3. I don't have any idea what the afr is but I like the fact that it pulls like a freight train continuously after several hits.
On another note, the IATs at first appeared to be jumping up and down 3-4 degrees right after I started the engine which was cold and the battery was disconnected for a while. After the first couple of hits it seems like it stabilized on its own and the readings were just a few degrees above ambient. I read that Pat G doesn't recommend to change the IAT table with the CTS-V/ZR1...so I'll leave it stock for now and see what it does.
09-12-2015, 09:43 PM
#53
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St. Jude Donor '15
Will be interesting to see what your AFR's look like with meth on and no other changes. Wonder if there was condensation on the sensor or something?
Sounds like the meth is doing its job though.. I think you'll like it
Not sure on the knock--I get some random KR every now and then at random places, regardless of timing, so I ignore it unless it's a significant amount and in boost
Sounds like the meth is doing its job though.. I think you'll like it
Not sure on the knock--I get some random KR every now and then at random places, regardless of timing, so I ignore it unless it's a significant amount and in boost
Last edited by schpenxel; 09-12-2015 at 09:45 PM.
09-12-2015, 10:15 PM
#54
Drifting
Thread Starter
Will be interesting to see what your AFR's look like with meth on and no other changes. Wonder if there was condensation on the sensor or something?
Sounds like the meth is doing its job though.. I think you'll like it
Not sure on the knock--I get some random KR every now and then at random places, regardless of timing, so I ignore it unless it's a significant amount and in boost
Sounds like the meth is doing its job though.. I think you'll like it
Not sure on the knock--I get some random KR every now and then at random places, regardless of timing, so I ignore it unless it's a significant amount and in boost
I already love it! Lol
It was a while ago since I experienced some knock. I think the weather plays a role since its also cooler and the meth probably didn't reach the activation point before I had to let out. I cant wait to get me the new timeslip!
09-12-2015, 11:02 PM
#55
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St. Jude Donor '15
Ah, yeah, that makes sense--I've had times where I hit the test button at idle and it didn't really do anything IAT wise, then after I gave it a little throttle the temp dropped like crazy. My IAT is after the throttle body though, so makes a little bit of sense
Hopefully you get a good slip out of it--I was really hoping you didn't sell the blower setup
Hopefully you get a good slip out of it--I was really hoping you didn't sell the blower setup
09-12-2015, 11:52 PM
#56
Drifting
Thread Starter
Ah, yeah, that makes sense--I've had times where I hit the test button at idle and it didn't really do anything IAT wise, then after I gave it a little throttle the temp dropped like crazy. My IAT is after the throttle body though, so makes a little bit of sense
Hopefully you get a good slip out of it--I was really hoping you didn't sell the blower setup
Hopefully you get a good slip out of it--I was really hoping you didn't sell the blower setup
09-21-2015, 09:50 PM
#57
Drifting
Thread Starter
Issues
Ever since I installed the meth kit, I've been experiencing some startup issues. I have not had this happen before so my question is for those who relocated the IAT sensor to the intake manifold. I feel like the sensor is getting heat soaked or maybe the vapors in the intake are sticking to the sensor element?, and once the engine is off and it sits for a while I go to start it and it starts as it is flooded. My reading tells me that once the IATs are high the ECM actually leans out the mixture during startup. I don't know if this applies to our ECMs but other ECUs work like that.
Anyone has experienced this before? Any ideas what may be causing this? Nothing else has been touched so I am dumbfounded.
Anyone has experienced this before? Any ideas what may be causing this? Nothing else has been touched so I am dumbfounded.
09-21-2015, 09:59 PM
#58
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St. Jude Donor '15
Did you make any tune changes? When I moved my IAT to the manifold I changed the bias/filter tables to match a ZR1 config. One of the tables will be all 0's, the other all 1's. I can't remember which is which offhand.
Basically the computer needs to know the temperature of the air going into the cylinder. The IAT sensor normally reads air temp a few feet away from the engine. It takes the intake air temp and coolant temp and uses them to calculate the temp the air will be in the manifold (using bias/filter tables). Bias sets how far the temp shifts from IAT towards engine coolant temp (i.e., heats up). Filter table defines how fast it happens, if I remember correctly.
Setting them to 1/0 basically makes manifold temp = whatever the IAT is reading. It no longer tries to bias the air temp towards engine coolant temp. Since the IAT is actually in the manifold now, that seems to make sense. To me at least.
Log manifold air temp sometime if you want to see it in action
The "density" part of speed density comes from knowing the temperature of the air. Higher temp = lower density of air, i.e. less air = less fuel to match, so yeah.. kind of leans it out depending on how you look at it
I wouldn't go changing it then go wide *** open first thing.. but might be worth messing with bias/filter tables when you're expecting the hot start issue just to see what happens
Which IAT sensor did you end up using? The GTO one or the ZR1 one?
Did you get your wideband installed?
Basically the computer needs to know the temperature of the air going into the cylinder. The IAT sensor normally reads air temp a few feet away from the engine. It takes the intake air temp and coolant temp and uses them to calculate the temp the air will be in the manifold (using bias/filter tables). Bias sets how far the temp shifts from IAT towards engine coolant temp (i.e., heats up). Filter table defines how fast it happens, if I remember correctly.
Setting them to 1/0 basically makes manifold temp = whatever the IAT is reading. It no longer tries to bias the air temp towards engine coolant temp. Since the IAT is actually in the manifold now, that seems to make sense. To me at least.
Log manifold air temp sometime if you want to see it in action
The "density" part of speed density comes from knowing the temperature of the air. Higher temp = lower density of air, i.e. less air = less fuel to match, so yeah.. kind of leans it out depending on how you look at it
I wouldn't go changing it then go wide *** open first thing.. but might be worth messing with bias/filter tables when you're expecting the hot start issue just to see what happens
Which IAT sensor did you end up using? The GTO one or the ZR1 one?
Did you get your wideband installed?
Last edited by schpenxel; 09-21-2015 at 10:01 PM.
09-21-2015, 10:18 PM
#59
Drifting
Thread Starter
Did you make any tune changes? When I moved my IAT to the manifold I changed the bias/filter tables to match a ZR1 config. One of the tables will be all 0's, the other all 1's. I can't remember which is which offhand.
Basically the computer needs to know the temperature of the air going into the cylinder. The IAT sensor normally reads air temp a few feet away from the engine. It takes the intake air temp and coolant temp and uses them to calculate the temp the air will be in the manifold (using bias/filter tables). Bias sets how far the temp shifts from IAT towards engine coolant temp (i.e., heats up). Filter table defines how fast it happens, if I remember correctly.
Setting them to 1/0 basically makes manifold temp = whatever the IAT is reading. It no longer tries to bias the air temp towards engine coolant temp. Since the IAT is actually in the manifold now, that seems to make sense. To me at least.
Log manifold air temp sometime if you want to see it in action
The "density" part of speed density comes from knowing the temperature of the air. Higher temp = lower density of air, i.e. less air = less fuel to match, so yeah.. kind of leans it out depending on how you look at it
I wouldn't go changing it then go wide *** open first thing.. but might be worth messing with bias/filter tables when you're expecting the hot start issue just to see what happens
Which IAT sensor did you end up using? The GTO one or the ZR1 one?
Did you get your wideband installed?
Basically the computer needs to know the temperature of the air going into the cylinder. The IAT sensor normally reads air temp a few feet away from the engine. It takes the intake air temp and coolant temp and uses them to calculate the temp the air will be in the manifold (using bias/filter tables). Bias sets how far the temp shifts from IAT towards engine coolant temp (i.e., heats up). Filter table defines how fast it happens, if I remember correctly.
Setting them to 1/0 basically makes manifold temp = whatever the IAT is reading. It no longer tries to bias the air temp towards engine coolant temp. Since the IAT is actually in the manifold now, that seems to make sense. To me at least.
Log manifold air temp sometime if you want to see it in action
The "density" part of speed density comes from knowing the temperature of the air. Higher temp = lower density of air, i.e. less air = less fuel to match, so yeah.. kind of leans it out depending on how you look at it
I wouldn't go changing it then go wide *** open first thing.. but might be worth messing with bias/filter tables when you're expecting the hot start issue just to see what happens
Which IAT sensor did you end up using? The GTO one or the ZR1 one?
Did you get your wideband installed?
So where is this table at? I changed the axis and the parameters for the IAT2 sensor but I recall that the startup issues began right after I relocated the sensor before I even changed the tables.
09-21-2015, 10:22 PM
#60
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St. Jude Donor '15
I have the ZR1 sensor and yes, I installed my WB last Friday but never for a ride, but it works for sure.
So where is this table at? I changed the axis and the parameters for the IAT2 sensor but I recall that the startup issues began right after I relocated the sensor before I even changed the tables.
So where is this table at? I changed the axis and the parameters for the IAT2 sensor but I recall that the startup issues began right after I relocated the sensor before I even changed the tables.
Bias=0
Filter=1