High IATs In 1/2 mile w/TTix Kit - Best options to fight it?
08-25-2015, 11:04 AM
#21
Melting Slicks
I've been 200mph in mine on a "closed" course. This was with the Turbonetics turbos and LS1 in a C5. I'm putting the finishing touches on a 7L build with the 6265s. It will be going to a half mile event once it's complete.
Where are your meth nozzles in relation to your IAT sensor?
Where are your meth nozzles in relation to your IAT sensor?
08-25-2015, 11:31 AM
#22
Race Director
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Location: Raleigh, NC
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St. Jude Donor '15
Agree on testing the meth system. Probably overkill but I've seen some people install the nozzle into a spare windshield washer tank cap (drill a hole and attach it like it's on the manifold) and run the system so that it sprays right back into the tank.
Something just seems wrong for IAT's to be that high
I would start there. The "green" light on the alky control system is only based on PRESSURE. You could totally clog up the filter at both nozzles and still get a green light.. in fact, you'd get it more easily in that case. So check that out.
Also, the question has been asked a few times for where the IAT sensor and meth nozzles are placed. That would be good to know as well.
Something just seems wrong for IAT's to be that high
I would start there. The "green" light on the alky control system is only based on PRESSURE. You could totally clog up the filter at both nozzles and still get a green light.. in fact, you'd get it more easily in that case. So check that out.
Also, the question has been asked a few times for where the IAT sensor and meth nozzles are placed. That would be good to know as well.
08-25-2015, 02:41 PM
#23
what he said ^. you have a **** load of back pressure not helping heat, the intercooler is tiny on that kit and the lay out in general just makes alot of engine bay heat that heatsoaks the thign with the turbos right there in the bay. it was definetly pulling some timing at the top of third and in 4th i could feel it fall on its face when i made those 2 passes in it.
08-25-2015, 03:01 PM
#24
Drifting
How long have you been running the same alky pump? The meth does eventually degrade the seals and you lose pressure. I have mine rebuilt every 3 years or so.
08-25-2015, 03:50 PM
#25
08-25-2015, 04:01 PM
#27
back pressure increases overall heat in the motors and turbos and considering all his stuff is crammed into the engine bacy IC included its heat soaking everything. not to say its the only culprit but its part of a larger puzzle
08-25-2015, 05:43 PM
#28
Drifting
Thread Starter
Things are crammed in there no doubt, engine bay is crazy hot and add in an extremely hot day outside. To be fair tho, we're measuring IATs before meth but we can tell in the tune by how much timing its pulling IATs are thru the roof.
Like Lou said its definitely noticeable with higher boost, running 18 to 21 psi.
On 8PSI car ran super strong, on 8PSI we made right around 750WHP and it trapped 174MPH with meth.
Turned the car up to 18 and 21 psi only to trap 3MPH more, thats where we noticed car pulling timing and what not.
On the dyno or on the street back home car was happy with 11.2 to 11.6 AFRs, anything below 11.2 it wasnt happy. At the event we had to run 10.5 AFRs or else.
Meth was tested before we left and Sunday morning and was working for sure. This kit is what it is, another member had this same issue and im guessing rest of us with this kit have the issue, make a pull thru end of 4th and open your hood and its mad hot.
My main question here is what is my best way to help bring IATs down, large A2A IC? Switch to A2W?
Like Lou said its definitely noticeable with higher boost, running 18 to 21 psi.
On 8PSI car ran super strong, on 8PSI we made right around 750WHP and it trapped 174MPH with meth.
Turned the car up to 18 and 21 psi only to trap 3MPH more, thats where we noticed car pulling timing and what not.
On the dyno or on the street back home car was happy with 11.2 to 11.6 AFRs, anything below 11.2 it wasnt happy. At the event we had to run 10.5 AFRs or else.
Meth was tested before we left and Sunday morning and was working for sure. This kit is what it is, another member had this same issue and im guessing rest of us with this kit have the issue, make a pull thru end of 4th and open your hood and its mad hot.
My main question here is what is my best way to help bring IATs down, large A2A IC? Switch to A2W?
Last edited by Mookster; 08-25-2015 at 05:45 PM.
08-25-2015, 05:57 PM
#29
Things are crammed in there no doubt, engine bay is crazy hot and add in an extremely hot day outside. To be fair tho, we're measuring IATs before meth but we can tell in the tune by how much timing its pulling IATs are thru the roof.
Like Lou said its definitely noticeable with higher boost, running 18 to 21 psi.
On 8PSI car ran super strong, on 8PSI we made right around 750WHP and it trapped 174MPH with meth.
Turned the car up to 18 and 21 psi only to trap 3MPH more, thats where we noticed car pulling timing and what not.
On the dyno or on the street back home car was happy with 11.2 to 11.6 AFRs, anything below 11.2 it wasnt happy. At the event we had to run 10.5 AFRs or else.
Meth was tested before we left and Sunday morning and was working for sure. This kit is what it is, another member had this same issue and im guessing rest of us with this kit have the issue, make a pull thru end of 4th and open your hood and its mad hot.
My main question here is what is my best way to help bring IATs down, large A2A IC? Switch to A2W?
Like Lou said its definitely noticeable with higher boost, running 18 to 21 psi.
On 8PSI car ran super strong, on 8PSI we made right around 750WHP and it trapped 174MPH with meth.
Turned the car up to 18 and 21 psi only to trap 3MPH more, thats where we noticed car pulling timing and what not.
On the dyno or on the street back home car was happy with 11.2 to 11.6 AFRs, anything below 11.2 it wasnt happy. At the event we had to run 10.5 AFRs or else.
Meth was tested before we left and Sunday morning and was working for sure. This kit is what it is, another member had this same issue and im guessing rest of us with this kit have the issue, make a pull thru end of 4th and open your hood and its mad hot.
My main question here is what is my best way to help bring IATs down, large A2A IC? Switch to A2W?
pull it off sell it and get an f1x and do a small air to water :P
08-25-2015, 05:58 PM
#30
Instructor
Things are crammed in there no doubt, engine bay is crazy hot and add in an extremely hot day outside. To be fair tho, we're measuring IATs before meth but we can tell in the tune by how much timing its pulling IATs are thru the roof.
Like Lou said its definitely noticeable with higher boost, running 18 to 21 psi.
On 8PSI car ran super strong, on 8PSI we made right around 750WHP and it trapped 174MPH with meth.
Turned the car up to 18 and 21 psi only to trap 3MPH more, thats where we noticed car pulling timing and what not.
On the dyno or on the street back home car was happy with 11.2 to 11.6 AFRs, anything below 11.2 it wasnt happy. At the event we had to run 10.5 AFRs or else.
Meth was tested before we left and Sunday morning and was working for sure. This kit is what it is, another member had this same issue and im guessing rest of us with this kit have the issue, make a pull thru end of 4th and open your hood and its mad hot.
My main question here is what is my best way to help bring IATs down, large A2A IC? Switch to A2W?
Like Lou said its definitely noticeable with higher boost, running 18 to 21 psi.
On 8PSI car ran super strong, on 8PSI we made right around 750WHP and it trapped 174MPH with meth.
Turned the car up to 18 and 21 psi only to trap 3MPH more, thats where we noticed car pulling timing and what not.
On the dyno or on the street back home car was happy with 11.2 to 11.6 AFRs, anything below 11.2 it wasnt happy. At the event we had to run 10.5 AFRs or else.
Meth was tested before we left and Sunday morning and was working for sure. This kit is what it is, another member had this same issue and im guessing rest of us with this kit have the issue, make a pull thru end of 4th and open your hood and its mad hot.
My main question here is what is my best way to help bring IATs down, large A2A IC? Switch to A2W?
08-25-2015, 06:16 PM
#32
Instructor
If you are measuring IATs before the meth, then you have no idea what the cooling effect it has on the air charge. In 1/2 mile and 1 mile competitions, my IATs are 170-180f pre-meth and 80-90f post-meth. Do yourself a favor, move your IAT sensor to after the meth so you can get an accurate reading of the air temps that are actually getting ingested by your engine.
Ambient was near 90 degree's and track temp was 130+
Meth was checked and flowing good. Our stock computer does not support logging before and after temps so I am fine working with what we have.
George was clear the kit was never designed for this and we are working on a new 10Gal Water/ice to Air system now.
When temps are good we are making over a grand at 7,200 and 20 Psi. We turned it up to 22+psi and 8,000 this weekend trying to get around this and other issue.
the two main changes before next event will be the move to 29in tall tires so we are not shifting just before the traps and the W2A system
BTW we did hit 177.8 in the half
Last edited by TwoFast4Lv; 08-25-2015 at 06:24 PM.
08-25-2015, 06:26 PM
#33
Instructor
Patrick. IAT is part of our MAF. No real need to seperate for us. Logs do not lie. Add timing get knock retard take it out it goes away. at 12-14PSI IATs were only 130s. Turn the Boost up(maxes 2.5 bar sensor) and IATs went off the IAT sensor max. retard kicked in and we would take a 6 Degree hit at 6,200 every time kicking timing down to 6 degree's from 16.
Ambient was near 90 degree's and track temp was 130+
Meth was checked and flowing good. Our stock computer does not support logging before and after temps so I am fine working with what we have.
George was clear the kit was never designed for this and we are working on a new 10Gal Water/ice to Air system now.
When temps are good we are making over a grand at 7,200 and 20 Psi. We turned it up to 22+psi and 8,000 this weekend trying to get around this and other issue.
the two main changes before next event will be the move to 29in tall tires so we are not shifting just before the traps and the W2A system
Ambient was near 90 degree's and track temp was 130+
Meth was checked and flowing good. Our stock computer does not support logging before and after temps so I am fine working with what we have.
George was clear the kit was never designed for this and we are working on a new 10Gal Water/ice to Air system now.
When temps are good we are making over a grand at 7,200 and 20 Psi. We turned it up to 22+psi and 8,000 this weekend trying to get around this and other issue.
the two main changes before next event will be the move to 29in tall tires so we are not shifting just before the traps and the W2A system
08-25-2015, 06:35 PM
#34
Instructor
You can easily separate IAT from your MAF by running a Cadillac CTS-V IAT#2 sensor after the meth. You are missing valuable information if you don't tie your IAT timing retard into ACTUAL air charge temps that are inside your plenum. If your meth stops working and your IAT sensor doesn't see the temp increase, you can grenade the engine if you continue to run high timing. Please don't take any of my comments as disrespect. I applaud anyone going for all they can and keeping tight scan logs to keep their engines out of trouble. I just like using every tool available so that's why all of our meth builds run IAT sensors a reasonable distance after the meth nozzles. Try that Cadillac sensor. It screws in and will hold very high boost.
My car has a Racepak on it. We might go to that system next year on the car we will see. IF we had room we would go to bigger turbo's for sure.
I would also like to give a call out to LME for this great engine they did for us! I check the plugs often to keep it alive
Even when Mookie was whining about the cost of true race plugs LOL!
08-25-2015, 07:18 PM
#35
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St. Jude Donor '15
Use sensor part number WT382. Put it in the manifold or at least after the MAF. Remove two wires from MAF wiring harness, connect to your shiny new post-meth IAT sensor.
Set bias table to all 0's. Set filter table to all 1's (if you install IAT in manifold)
Use ZR1 IAT 2 sensor data (axis and data) from a stock ZR1 tune, copy/paste over to IAT 1 in your tune.
Check and see what the temp is post-meth.
Set bias table to all 0's. Set filter table to all 1's (if you install IAT in manifold)
Use ZR1 IAT 2 sensor data (axis and data) from a stock ZR1 tune, copy/paste over to IAT 1 in your tune.
Check and see what the temp is post-meth.
08-25-2015, 11:26 PM
#37
Melting Slicks
Everyone i know running meth seperates the iat from maf... The iat has to be cooled by tye meth other wise it will pull timing for high iats when the iats are really 100* cooler.. Imo thats your next step.. Seperate the maf and iat. Maf before meth and iat after.
08-26-2015, 12:43 AM
#38
Safety Car
I'm not a 1/2 mile big baller like you guys, but relocating the IAT helped mine by 50 degrees in the 1/4, and that's with a single nozzle. Here's a write-up from 5 yrs ago.
http://forum.turbotechnologyinc.com/...php?f=17&t=441
http://forum.turbotechnologyinc.com/...php?f=17&t=441
08-26-2015, 02:12 AM
#39
Before you go reworking the whole IC system why not measure the pre intercooler air temps and see what they are? The should give you some reflection as to what's happening at the turbos. It could be as Unreal said in not as many words your IC has become heat soaked and just can't pull the heat out of the intake air any more (Unreal called it a heat sink which is unfair). If this is the case then you know you need A) a larger air to air intercooler or B) go for the air to water setup. Could you maybe do an additional air to water so you can 'bolt on' added cooling when needed?
If your pre intercooler temps keep climbing during the pull then you know the turbos are maxed out. It would be nice to see shaft speeds but that's not cheap or easy. Do you monitor back pressure pre turbo? What's that like? This might give a clue as to is the turbos themselves are causing the issue. It could be at the boost levels you are running your spinning the turbos so hard you are just adding heat rather than any additional airflow. Where do they sit on the compressor maps for your engine and settings?
Also worth looking at would be air speed through the rad / intercooler. Is the air stalling and thus you are getting low airflow across the IC? What are your water temps like during the pull? Are they climbing or stable?
If your pre intercooler temps keep climbing during the pull then you know the turbos are maxed out. It would be nice to see shaft speeds but that's not cheap or easy. Do you monitor back pressure pre turbo? What's that like? This might give a clue as to is the turbos themselves are causing the issue. It could be at the boost levels you are running your spinning the turbos so hard you are just adding heat rather than any additional airflow. Where do they sit on the compressor maps for your engine and settings?
Also worth looking at would be air speed through the rad / intercooler. Is the air stalling and thus you are getting low airflow across the IC? What are your water temps like during the pull? Are they climbing or stable?
08-26-2015, 03:08 PM
#40
Instructor
Before you go reworking the whole IC system why not measure the pre intercooler air temps and see what they are? The should give you some reflection as to what's happening at the turbos. It could be as Unreal said in not as many words your IC has become heat soaked and just can't pull the heat out of the intake air any more (Unreal called it a heat sink which is unfair). If this is the case then you know you need A) a larger air to air intercooler or B) go for the air to water setup. Could you maybe do an additional air to water so you can 'bolt on' added cooling when needed?
If your pre intercooler temps keep climbing during the pull then you know the turbos are maxed out. It would be nice to see shaft speeds but that's not cheap or easy. Do you monitor back pressure pre turbo? What's that like? This might give a clue as to is the turbos themselves are causing the issue. It could be at the boost levels you are running your spinning the turbos so hard you are just adding heat rather than any additional airflow. Where do they sit on the compressor maps for your engine and settings?
Also worth looking at would be air speed through the rad / intercooler. Is the air stalling and thus you are getting low airflow across the IC? What are your water temps like during the pull? Are they climbing or stable?
If your pre intercooler temps keep climbing during the pull then you know the turbos are maxed out. It would be nice to see shaft speeds but that's not cheap or easy. Do you monitor back pressure pre turbo? What's that like? This might give a clue as to is the turbos themselves are causing the issue. It could be at the boost levels you are running your spinning the turbos so hard you are just adding heat rather than any additional airflow. Where do they sit on the compressor maps for your engine and settings?
Also worth looking at would be air speed through the rad / intercooler. Is the air stalling and thus you are getting low airflow across the IC? What are your water temps like during the pull? Are they climbing or stable?
A) IAT is taken less then 6 inches from the Throttle body on this system.the Meth and N2O nossles are literally in front of the Throttle body with only the silicone hose joint separating them
B) YES we know we are near maxing out the turbo's
C) YES we know the heat is real and the IC, as big as it is, can't cover the exchange. After a run the IC is to hot to even touch
D) YES I have many times moved a IAT sensor. My best option here would be to drill the back of the plastic intake and hope it does not blow out during a run....because we all know how easy the back of a C6 LS7 intake is to get to.
SOOO to me the actual hot air is a problem and we are going to address it.