Finished the Alky Control Methanol Injection installation C6 Z06 N/A
01-08-2017, 01:46 AM
#21
Burning Brakes
Tuning Update:
Using 100% methanol, I wasn't able to add much timing before getting some knock even though the intake temperatures started at 80°F and ended up at 44°F with the methanol flowing. The injector duty cycle did drop from 105% commanded to 94% with the M5 nozzle.
I learned from a good friend (Mike at Magnuson Superchargers) that:
"Methanol does a good job of cooling, adds a touch of octane and additional fuel if you need it. Water works in the combustion chamber to reduce end of compression temperature and stabilizes combustion (prevents knock)."
My next try at tuning methanol injection will be 30% water and 70% methanol. I chose this ratio after calculating how much injector I need to save using the results from 100% methanol. Depending on the results with 30% water, I might increase the water ratio. I'll let the injector tell me how far I can go.
I can say this from testing and tuning; the car used to rip the rear tires (Bridgestone RE50A run flats) loose really hard when I first got the car and started tuning so I went with a stickier RE11 and the tires would lose traction but I didn't have to let off the throttle. Tuning with the methanol, the car is ripping the RE11s loose and forcing me to get out of the throttle as the back end gets kicked sideways real hard in second and even into third. I think it may be time for the MT SS drag radials to make their debut.
Using 100% methanol, I wasn't able to add much timing before getting some knock even though the intake temperatures started at 80°F and ended up at 44°F with the methanol flowing. The injector duty cycle did drop from 105% commanded to 94% with the M5 nozzle.
I learned from a good friend (Mike at Magnuson Superchargers) that:
"Methanol does a good job of cooling, adds a touch of octane and additional fuel if you need it. Water works in the combustion chamber to reduce end of compression temperature and stabilizes combustion (prevents knock)."
My next try at tuning methanol injection will be 30% water and 70% methanol. I chose this ratio after calculating how much injector I need to save using the results from 100% methanol. Depending on the results with 30% water, I might increase the water ratio. I'll let the injector tell me how far I can go.
I can say this from testing and tuning; the car used to rip the rear tires (Bridgestone RE50A run flats) loose really hard when I first got the car and started tuning so I went with a stickier RE11 and the tires would lose traction but I didn't have to let off the throttle. Tuning with the methanol, the car is ripping the RE11s loose and forcing me to get out of the throttle as the back end gets kicked sideways real hard in second and even into third. I think it may be time for the MT SS drag radials to make their debut.
105%???!! Holy smokes. I thought mine was high. Why the heck don't u get injectors? How much power are you making? I have never heard of a duty cycle that high on a NA Z06. I'm only at 92-93% and I have a pretty aggressive setup. What was your commanded lambda when u saw 105%?
01-08-2017, 07:33 PM
#22
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '13
105%???!! Holy smokes. I thought mine was high. Why the heck don't u get injectors? How much power are you making? I have never heard of a duty cycle that high on a NA Z06. I'm only at 92-93% and I have a pretty aggressive setup. What was your commanded lambda when u saw 105%?
I am commanding 12.0:1 AFR (.82 lambda) WOT but did not have the wide band on at that time. The correction was -0.7 on the fuel trims, the rpm was 7300.
Last edited by MickVette; 01-08-2017 at 07:38 PM.
01-08-2017, 09:52 PM
#24
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St. Jude Donor '13
I don't have wide band data for that tune.
I installed my wide band last night so I don't have to borrow the local tuners any more. I will be tuning the water/methanol mix so I probably won't get any wide band data for the injectors being requested at 105% unless I toss that tune back in after I'm finished tuning with the methanol.
What data I do have is this:
I test three different target AFR's for Lean Best torque, Mean Best Torque and Rich Best torque. The injector duty cycle is down to 82% Lean tune, 87% Mean tune and 96% Rich tune all with the 70/30 methanol/water mix and 10% ethanol fuel we have here.
I measure the time from Xmph to Ymph in each gear tested as a sanity check. Tire slippage ruins that data and is noted. I also got my first chance to "launch it" today with the 305/35-19 MT SS Drag Radials. Very impressive traction compared to the RE-11's I had on there.
100% methanol didn't hold additional timing so I won't be putting that data under the microscope yet. Next up is tuning a 40% methanol and 60% water mix. The stock injector might have a little trouble with the Rich Best torque tune but should be fine with the rest.
The 1/2 mile race in Ocala is Jan 22 for me so we will soon find out how the parts I modified/built/installed and my tuning perform.
I installed my wide band last night so I don't have to borrow the local tuners any more. I will be tuning the water/methanol mix so I probably won't get any wide band data for the injectors being requested at 105% unless I toss that tune back in after I'm finished tuning with the methanol.
What data I do have is this:
I test three different target AFR's for Lean Best torque, Mean Best Torque and Rich Best torque. The injector duty cycle is down to 82% Lean tune, 87% Mean tune and 96% Rich tune all with the 70/30 methanol/water mix and 10% ethanol fuel we have here.
I measure the time from Xmph to Ymph in each gear tested as a sanity check. Tire slippage ruins that data and is noted. I also got my first chance to "launch it" today with the 305/35-19 MT SS Drag Radials. Very impressive traction compared to the RE-11's I had on there.
100% methanol didn't hold additional timing so I won't be putting that data under the microscope yet. Next up is tuning a 40% methanol and 60% water mix. The stock injector might have a little trouble with the Rich Best torque tune but should be fine with the rest.
The 1/2 mile race in Ocala is Jan 22 for me so we will soon find out how the parts I modified/built/installed and my tuning perform.
Last edited by MickVette; 01-09-2017 at 09:18 AM.
01-12-2017, 09:37 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '13
A little update:
With the 5 GPH nozzle the 40% methanol and 60% water ran out of injector at 6566 rpms with a 102% duty cycle at the Mean Best Torque AFR (between rich and lean tunes I test). The acceleration at that ratio was pretty impressive. You could really feel the methanol injection come on. Acceleration from 56-86 was 2.028 seconds. For a comparison the best 56-86 acceleration with the 70% methanol and 30% water was 2.106 seconds. From this data, I'm going to try to keep as much water in the mix as possible while getting the injector duty cycle under control.
I didn't test further at longer ranges of speeds since I won't be using that methanol to water ratio.
With the 5 GPH nozzle the 40% methanol and 60% water ran out of injector at 6566 rpms with a 102% duty cycle at the Mean Best Torque AFR (between rich and lean tunes I test). The acceleration at that ratio was pretty impressive. You could really feel the methanol injection come on. Acceleration from 56-86 was 2.028 seconds. For a comparison the best 56-86 acceleration with the 70% methanol and 30% water was 2.106 seconds. From this data, I'm going to try to keep as much water in the mix as possible while getting the injector duty cycle under control.
I didn't test further at longer ranges of speeds since I won't be using that methanol to water ratio.
01-15-2017, 06:51 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
Nice Job on the install Mick. I also did the meth kit but didn't get much time to dial it in since the cold weather got to NJ.
BTW. Been so busy with the car I never thanked you for the data you sent a while back. It helped me a lot as a baseline.... although I need to find a place to compare your 192MPH pull
Thanks again
BTW. Been so busy with the car I never thanked you for the data you sent a while back. It helped me a lot as a baseline.... although I need to find a place to compare your 192MPH pull
Thanks again
01-15-2017, 11:21 AM
#30
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '13
Nice Job on the install Mick. I also did the meth kit but didn't get much time to dial it in since the cold weather got to NJ.
BTW. Been so busy with the car I never thanked you for the data you sent a while back. It helped me a lot as a baseline.... although I need to find a place to compare your 192MPH pull Thanks again
BTW. Been so busy with the car I never thanked you for the data you sent a while back. It helped me a lot as a baseline.... although I need to find a place to compare your 192MPH pull
Thanks againI'm on tune 107 now because I keep modifying parts and really need a spot to do another "pull" with methanol. I think my airbox is bleeding off pressure once I get into fourth. I see the tune richen up slightly on the wide band. I'm pretty sure it was only top of fourth bottom of 5th though, not quite 192... LOL
If we have similar methanol set ups you are welcome to try one of the tunes I have. I have since ported the MSD intake quite a bit and lost the cats, so you will need to dial it in. My Methanol set up is the AlkyControls 10GPH nozzle with a 50/50 mix coming on at 7800Hz MAF.
01-15-2017, 12:57 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Thank you and you are welcome. I didn't realize at the time I sent you that tune I was fighting an intake leak, among trying many different timing tests as a work around. I'm glad it was able to help though.
I'm on tune 107 now because I keep modifying parts and really need a spot to do another "pull" with methanol. I think my airbox is bleeding off pressure once I get into fourth. I see the tune richen up slightly on the wide band. I'm pretty sure it was only top of fourth bottom of 5th though, not quite 192... LOL
If we have similar methanol set ups you are welcome to try one of the tunes I have. I have since ported the MSD intake quite a bit and lost the cats, so you will need to dial it in. My Methanol set up is the AlkyControls 10GPH nozzle with a 50/50 mix coming on at 7800Hz MAF.
I'm on tune 107 now because I keep modifying parts and really need a spot to do another "pull" with methanol. I think my airbox is bleeding off pressure once I get into fourth. I see the tune richen up slightly on the wide band. I'm pretty sure it was only top of fourth bottom of 5th though, not quite 192... LOL
If we have similar methanol set ups you are welcome to try one of the tunes I have. I have since ported the MSD intake quite a bit and lost the cats, so you will need to dial it in. My Methanol set up is the AlkyControls 10GPH nozzle with a 50/50 mix coming on at 7800Hz MAF.
Appreciate the tune offer but my built took a left turn shortly after we spoke and I went with a Novi 1500 and cam thinking it's easier and cheaper to just blow more air in past any restrictions or rough surfaces. Presently tuned in SD only. Used the same Alkycontrol pump/electronics you have but switch plumbing/nozzles over to AEM and running dual 250cc nozzles thinking 2 finer spray fog types were better than a single. I think the dual 250cc is about 8GPH so it's close to yours.
01-15-2017, 03:05 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '13
Appreciate the tune offer but my built took a left turn shortly after we spoke and I went with a Novi 1500 and cam thinking it's easier and cheaper to just blow more air in past any restrictions or rough surfaces. Presently tuned in SD only. Used the same Alkycontrol pump/electronics you have but switch plumbing/nozzles over to AEM and running dual 250cc nozzles thinking 2 finer spray fog types were better than a single. I think the dual 250cc is about 8GPH so it's close to yours.
I totally understand that left turn. Everything has to be so perfect NA. One mistake and you go backwards.
Makes me want to break my turbo fox Mustang out of storage. I built my own turbo kit for it, built a mild but nice 306 and ran mid 9's in the 1/4 mile still using the stock throttle body and many other stock parts including block and crank.
01-17-2017, 12:59 PM
#33
Burning Brakes
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St. Jude Donor '13
The car liked 55/45 mix methanol to water ratio using a 10GPH nozzle and the tune asking for 101% injector duty cycle. Timing is 21-23° depending on the rpm range and no knock. I can definitely push the timing a little harder and might after I see how the first run down the 1/2 mile shakes out this weekend..
I ended up with this recipe for a good balance of safety with the tune and timing KR can easily control if the methanol doesn't turn on.
Driving impressions. The system comes on somewhat soft with the **** at 10 which is a good thing because that keeps the AFR consistent when methanol turns on. The car easily breaks the tires loose launching, and every shift until 4th gear even with the MT SS Drag Radials. The back of the car never really feels planted to the road even well into 4th gear. The air pressure is currently at a high'ish 26 psi for a drag radial and I will be gradually reducing that to find a balance of traction and high speed stability.
If anyone has any constructive good advice, I'd like to hear your input. My race is Sunday, so there isn't much time to do anything drastic.
I ended up with this recipe for a good balance of safety with the tune and timing KR can easily control if the methanol doesn't turn on.
Driving impressions. The system comes on somewhat soft with the **** at 10 which is a good thing because that keeps the AFR consistent when methanol turns on. The car easily breaks the tires loose launching, and every shift until 4th gear even with the MT SS Drag Radials. The back of the car never really feels planted to the road even well into 4th gear. The air pressure is currently at a high'ish 26 psi for a drag radial and I will be gradually reducing that to find a balance of traction and high speed stability.
If anyone has any constructive good advice, I'd like to hear your input. My race is Sunday, so there isn't much time to do anything drastic.
01-17-2017, 01:18 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
I'm running Nitto NT05R drag radials and smoke 1st, 2nd and 3rd unless running 16lbs. Granted I only ran it out in 4th at about 140MPH and so not sure how safe that would be topping out in the 1/2 mile. Everything I've been told is injector DC should stay under 80% so not sure what to say about running 101%.
Last pull before shutting down for the winter was 9 degrees spark with 15lbs boost/no meth on 93+E10. Can't imagine 20. LOL
Good luck Sunday...Be safe and let me know how things went
Last pull before shutting down for the winter was 9 degrees spark with 15lbs boost/no meth on 93+E10. Can't imagine 20. LOL
Good luck Sunday...Be safe and let me know how things went
01-17-2017, 02:20 PM
#35
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St. Jude Donor '15
Everyone says 80% blah blah blah, but there's a hard coded dead time of I believe 0.8 miliseconds built into the ECM's code, so it's not like you can actually destroy the injectors or anything like some people say by having them open too long
01-17-2017, 03:20 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
LOL I gave up on trying to figure out the importance of % after seeing a log showing 120% while On time was < 20ms. It's crazy I tell you...just plain crazy
01-17-2017, 03:23 PM
#37
Le Mans Master
I would worry about destroying the engine if they cant supply enough fuel... not the injectors.
01-17-2017, 03:27 PM
#38
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St. Jude Donor '15
I'm assuming he's not running it lean
01-17-2017, 03:29 PM
#39
Le Mans Master
01-17-2017, 03:44 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
Didn't mean to imply the number should be ignored, just that it makes no sense for a reading of greater than 100% duty cycle but somehow it happens. Gave up on using that calculated number to feel comfortable and keep an eye on WB whenever the foot it to the floor.
Regardless, as you said anything above 90 is a red flag
Regardless, as you said anything above 90 is a red flag