phils C5 vette

Im curious with all the tunes on C5s and C6s, if any owner has run into a problem with the dealership.

eboggs_jkvl

I think this is pretty simple to answer.

First answer this question: Does your version of OEM software reside on an ECM that keeps track of file updates?

If yes, you are screwed if you edit the file EVEN IF YOU put the stock file back in the ECM. They know from the history that the file has been edited by someone other than GM and you lose your drive train warranty.

If no, then you can write your stock program back into your PCM and they will never know the difference. A stock program is a stock program and your warranty will probably be honored. There may be issue with loading in the program and not having any codes that indicate the "failure" but that is another battle.

So, diablo puts in the stock tune, fine. You put in the stock tune, fine. Your tuner put in the stock tune, fine. But if you answered "yes" to my first question, you are screwed.

What is needed to stop this nonsensical prattle is a list of the ECMs and years that log the "history" of tunes. It appears that my 2007 LS2 E38 ECM does not do that. Thus, I can have tune, go back to stock and there is no way to prove the modification ever happened to the tune.

With that knowledge, you must decide on tuning. Personally, If I need to tune due to some mod, I'll decide on the morality of the tune at that time. I had a tune in my car. It put CAGs to sleep. I decided to put it back to stock and I did. I have absolutely NO qualms about demanding my warranty be honored. If I did a cam, headers, heads, and tune, forget it. I would NOT expect any warranty on the drive train. I would not EVEN TRY to put the stock tune back in. Damn thing is broke, I have no warranty, I will fix it on my dime.

So... You make your choice Pay to play, period.

My $.02

Elmer

edcmat-l1

Over the next few months, I'm going to do some testing and research, with the help of a GM dealer, to find out exactly what is detectable and why. Not to circumvent or get over on GM, just for my own knowledge.

This bulletin had screen shots showing vehicle Cal Id and verification numbers. Unfortunately they didn't copy over.


INFORMATION

Bulletin No.: 09-06-04-026A

Date: October 28, 2009

Subject: Identifying Non-GM (Aftermarket) Engine and Transmission Calibrations for V8 Gas Engines

Models:
2006-2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks (Excluding Saab 9-7X)
2006-2009 HUMMER H2, H3
Equipped with V8 Gas Powered Engines Only

Attention:
This bulletin applies to V8 gas powered engines ONLY. For all other gas powered engine applications, refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033C. For Duramax(TM) diesel powered engines, refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-006F.

Supercede:
This bulletin is being revised to add a graphic and information about the Tech 2(R) screen displaying all zeroes and add Warranty Information. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 09-06-04-026 (Section 06 - Engine/Propulsion System).

General Motors is identifying an increasing number of engine, transmission and catalytic converter part failures that are the result of non-GM (aftermarket) engine and transmission control calibrations being used.

When alteration to the GM-released engine or transmission control calibrations occurs, it subjects powertrain and driveline components (engine , transmission, transfer case, driveshaft and rear axle) to stresses that were not tested by General Motors. It is because of these unknown stresses, and the potential to alter reliability, durability and emissions performance, that GM has adopted a policy to cancel any remaining warranty coverage to the powertrain and driveline components whenever the presence of a non-GM (aftermarket) calibration is confirmed - even if the non-GM control module calibration is subsequently removed.

Warranty coverage is based on the equipment and calibrations that were released on the vehicle at time of sale, or subsequently updated by GM. That's because GM testing and validation matches the calibration to a host of criteria that is essential to assure reliability, durability and emissions performance over the life of the warranty coverage and beyond. Stresses resulting from calibrations different from those tested and released by GM can damage or weaken components, leading to poor performance and or shortened life.

Additionally, non-GM (aftermarket) issued engine control modifications often do not meet the same emissions performance standards as GM issued calibrations. Depending on state statutes, individuals who install engine control module calibrations that put the vehicle outside the parameters of emissions certification standards may be subject to fines and/or penalties.

This bulletin outlines a procedure to identify the presence of non-GM (aftermarket) calibrations. GM recommends performing this check whenever a hard part failure is seen on internal engine or transmission components, or before an engine assembly or transmission assembly is being replaced under warranty. It is also recommended that the engine calibration verification procedure be performed whenever diagnostics indicate that catalytic converter replacement is indicated.

In May 2009, the PQC will begin piloting a process to confirm the ECM/PCM calibration is GM issued. Beginning on May 18, 2009, the PQC will require a picture of the engine calibration verification screen, as outlined in this bulletin, before authorizing any V8 gas powered engine replacement.

If a non-GM calibration is found and verification has taken place through GM, the remaining powertrain and driveline warranty will be cancelled and notated in GMVIS and the dealership will be notified.

1. Connect the Tech 2(R) to the vehicle.
2. Go to: Diagnostics and build the vehicle.
3. Select: Powertrain.
4. Select: Engine.
5. *Select: Engine Control Module or PCM.
6. *Select: Module ID Information or I/M Information System if the Module ID Information selection is not available.
7. *If "I/M information System" was selected, it may be necessary to select "Vehicle Information" in order to display the calibration information.

¤ If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.









8. Take a CLEAR digital picture of the Tech 2(R) Vehicle Information screen showing the engine Calibration IDs and Verification Numbers as shown above. Retain the printout information and the Tech 2(R) screen photograph with the repair order.
9. E-mail a copy of the picture to tacsnapshot@gm.com. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern.

Note
The dealer will receive an email reply after the calibrations have been validated. The email reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.

10. Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.

¤ If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).


11. You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.


Tech 2(R) Displaying All Zeroes for the Verification Numbers on the Calibration ID and Verification Number Screen







If the Tech 2(R) that you are using displays all zeroes for the Verification Numbers as shown, then perform the following steps:

1. Update the Tech 2(R) with the latest software from TIS2WEB.
2. Turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds.
3. Connect the Tech 2(R) to the vehicle.
4. Turn ON the ignition, and build the vehicle. Observe the Tech 2(R) Calibration ID and Verification Number screen for proper operation.

¤ If the Tech 2(R) screen still does not display properly, then turn OFF the ignition for 90 seconds again. Turn ON the ignition and observe the same screen for proper operation.



Warranty Information

- The Dealership Service Management must be involved in any situation that would justify the use of labor operation Z1111.
- Notify the Fixed Operations Manager (FOM) (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada) of the situation.
- All claims will have to be routed to the FOM (WM in Canada) for approval.
- Please refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 09-00-89-016, Labor Operation Z1111 - Suspected Tampering or Vehicle Modifications for important information.

phils C5 vette

That sounds like a goat rope waiting to happen.

GMautotech

That bulletin has been superseded by 09-06-04-026B dated 04-07-10. They added a section explaining how to access the programming history for the 2010 Camaros and future Global A vehicles.




Retrieving Calibrations From a Global A Vehicle

This information applies to the 2010 Camaro and is typical of the procedure that will be used on Global A vehicles.

1. Turn OFF the ignition.
2. Connect the MDI to the Data Link Connector (DLC) of the vehicle.

Note: Use the USB port to make the following MDI connection:
3. Connect the MDI to a PC or laptop that has been downloaded with the GDS application from TIS2WEB.

Note: At least one Diagnostic Package must be installed on the PC to perform diagnostics.
4. If GDS was just installed, select: Add New Diagnostic Package and then select: a Diagnostic Package to download. Click: On the GDS icon on the PC.
5. The Login Page will appear.
6. Select: A User.
7. The ID Screen will appear.
8. Select: The serial number of the MDI being used.
9. Select: Connect.
10. Verify that the system status is ready by observing for a flashing PC light icon on the MDI.
11. Select: Make, Model and Model Year, in order to build the vehicle.
12. Click: Upload VIN, to allow the VIN to be reported to the PC.
13. At: The Verification step, turn ON the ignition, with the engine OFF.
14. Select: Next Action.
15. The Home Page will appear.
16. Select: Next.
17. The Diagnostic Screen will appear.

Note: Due to vehicle build, software and RPO variations, GDS may ask for additional information in Step 18.
18. Select: Engine ID, if prompted.
19. Select: Module Diagnostics.
20. Select: ECM.
21. Select: ID Information.
22. The Diagnostics page will appear.
Typical View of GDS Calibration History Screen


Note: GDS is capable of displaying up to 10 Calibration History events.
23. Select: Calibration History from the drop down menu in order to display the following items on the screen:
• Calibration History Buffer
• Number of Calibration History Events Stored
• Calibration Part Number History
• Calibration Verification Number History
24. Select: Screenshot.
25. Name and save the file in an appropriate folder.
26. Select : Print, and retain a copy of the screenshot with the repair order.
27. E-mail a copy of the screenshot to ****. In the subject line of the e-mail include the phrase "V8 Cal" as well as the complete VIN and Dealer BAC. In the body of the e-mail, include the VIN, mileage, R.O. number and BAC. Include a brief description of the customer concern and cause of the concern.

Note: The dealer will receive an e-mail reply after the calibrations have been validated. The e-mail reply will advise the dealer if the calibrations are OEM.
28. Allow two hours for the PQC to verify the calibrations and set up the case details.
⇒ If the PQC determines that the calibrations ARE aftermarket calibrations, DO NOT contact GM Technical Assistance to discuss warranty concerns on the aftermarket calibrations. ALL questions and concerns about warranty should be directed to the dealers Fixed Operations Manager (FOM), (Warranty Manager (WM) in Canada).
29. You may call the PQC two hours after submitting the e-mail for authorization to replace the assembly. This will provide them time to receive, review and set up a case on the request. Please be prepared to provide all the usual documentation that is normally required when requesting an assembly authorization from the PQC.

eboggs_jkvl

OK, so what the hell is a Global A vehicle?


Elmer

Chalky

Can you elaborate?

GMautotech

Global A is Global Architecture and those vehicles will require the GDS (global diagnostic software) for diagnostics. GDS is a PC software based diagnostic tool used in place of the Tech2. Those include the new Camaro, Equinox, LaCrosse, Terrain and SRX.

eboggs_jkvl

Ok, thanks. Now, I conclude that my car, 07 C6 is not in that group and does not have a "history" function to see the last 10 software updates into my ECM? Continuing, if I tune everything in the ECM, change all of the tables and numbers and then reload the original tune back in, my ECM will appear totally stock and untouched by GM?

Yes? No?

Elmer

Mike@DiabloSport

That locked thread is not cool.

The Predator nor Trinity will not affect the CVNs in ANY way, period, end of story.

Mike@DiabloSport

It has never happened to any of our customers.

Mike@DiabloSport

I look forward to your findings Ed.

Any chance you can get your hands on a U7194 Predator, flash an E38 and see what you can find?

Lemme know!

Mike@DiabloSport

A little research right here, on the worlds largest Vette based forum, would quickly tell you that there is no problem running any of our tunes on a Vette.

You love to insinuate that there are issues, even though nobody has had any issues....

Mike@DiabloSport

Keep in mind, the other guys in no way claim to get around these CVN checks, so the software used by your 'pro' tuner may get you in more trouble that you think....

edcmat-l1

Mike,

The plan is to try HPT, EFIlive, and DS, all. I'm going to use a 2010 Camaro, and we'll see what comes up. I've got a hook up at our local GM dealer, and I can go in and work with their lead Vette tech.

Mike@DiabloSport

Sweet.

I look forward to it, let me know if you need any assistance.

GMautotech

Your vehicle is not Global A and there is no 'history' that we can access at the dealership level.

That I can not answer, I guess that depends on the programming software. Though I did a test with HPT on a C6 and the ECM appeared untouched as far as the calibration and CVN's after programming back to stock.

eboggs_jkvl

You did well. Ok, so I have EFILive and I need to ascertain if replacing the original tune with that software will set the ECM back to OEM stock and undetectable by GM.

As I said, this is not a big deal to me. I play by the rules until the warranty runs out and then any repair is on my dime. I then don't have any issues modifying the car or tune and I sure as hell wouldn't mod and tune while under warranty then try to cover it up to get warranty work done because of something I modified.

Elmer

GTPprix

Interesting note regarding global "A" and the vette, the ECM in the 2010 uses the same OS and hardware revision as the Camaro so I'd hazard a guess the 2010 Logs as well

GMautotech

The vehicles I listed above are the only ones that I am aware of that are Global A right now. Does that mean the 2010 C6 does not have the history logs? I don't know. I can scan a 2010 C6 if there is anyone that wants to swing by my dealership - PM me if interested. It might be inconclusive with a stock tune though.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that the GDS software will work with non Global A vehicles. I have not tried that yet. The GDS software is the only way to see the history logs too.