Midnight08

I have a base 2008 C6, m6 with stock NPP exhaust, and a baseline dyno run without upgrades. I have installed the Ram Air SS CAI and once it's warm enough will replace the coils with a set that others have found a gain of 15-20 hp. After the CAI, I got the lean codes, as expected and was able to reset them, but clearly need a tune to refine for the much cooler air and higher volume. I also will be getting LG Motorsports Pro LT Headers and know tuning is best for refining their addition. At this point, I don't plan on doing anything more with the car.

So, in this context, would I be better served working with a local tuner with plenty of LS/Corvette experience, or purchasing a DiabloSport inTune i2 with custom tuning through the internet? I'm assuming that what I'm doing is pretty basic stuff, so not as involved as if I was getting into the engine, etc.

Opinion, thoughts, suggestions?

Mike's LS3

1. Aftermarket coils will yield 0 hp, unless a stock coil is underperforming.
2. Normally, a CAI does not throw codes, unless you have a vacuum leak. Depending on the CAI, the fuel trims may need to be adjusted in the tune.
3. If you are doing just headers, CAI, then a Diablew tune would work fine. It all depends how much a dyno tune cost in your area. Compare to the cost of a Diablew tune and intune2. The nice thing about the Intune2 is that you can email tunes to Lew to adjust, data log, tune and erase DTC's. Once you start changing heads, cam, injectors, etc. then I would get a dyno/street tune.

Midnight08

I didn't start this thread to open debate on the things I stated, but points one and two don't fit the research I found. Especially 2 - with real CAI upgrades, lean codes are common. Most people do what amounts to a filter swap, making no real change to the temp or volume of airflow. In that case, there certainly shouldn't be any codes triggered, but if the engine is all of a sudden seeing more and colder air, then it upsets the established air to fuel combustion and the car complains by sending a code to say it's noticed something has changed.

I don't plan on getting into the engine at this point, so I think I'll just stick with letting the local dyno shop dial things in.

Mike's LS3

Not trying to start a debate, just passing on personal experience. LOL!


"With real CAI upgrades lean codes are common?" No, with real CAI's fuel trims may tend to move 2-4% to the positive side. If a lean code is triggered, then the fuel trims have moved to about 25%. I would be looking at another CAI or for a vacuum leak.

BTW: I installed a Halltech air intake MF103 which had better than stock fuel trims.


Good luck!

Midnight08

Fair enough. In the research I did of the three CAI options that I thought represented actual improvement over the stock systems, it was a common enough result that it was mentioned. Then later, when I got the codes, and searched here, the context for those codes was commonly after a CAI install. You have to realize that a system may be leaning in a particular direction, but still be within system adjustable limits. A CAI change might, by itself, not be enough to trigger the code, but if the system is already leaning a bit lean, then the CAI could be just enough to kick it over the edge - but if a system was leaning toward the rich side, then the CAI may pull it closer to center, without triggering any code at all. These things aren't as exact as one might prefer.

As far as CAI options go, it was my opinion that the only ones worth investing in were those actually accessing cool air from the radiator cavity, like the Ram Air SS, or Honker CAI, and I think there is another one or more that tap into this cooler air cavity. There are a couple that work on a ram air idea, routing air from the front of the car, but the experiences I read with these were mixed, due to quality issues and then changes to attempt to address that. However, I found some of these people just went to a different system to avoid the issues altogether. The main weakness of a system like the Ram Air SS, or the Honker is that in severe rain, there is a risk of water getting splashed up there. Since most of us don't run our cars in that kind of condition, it's not a practical issue.

Thanks for the reply and the feedback. It's always valuable to hear from different people.

Unreal

Have whoever made your magic coils tune it. If they can get 20-30hp with pixie dust marketing fluff, they can probably get 100+ with a tune.

jim2092

Midnight08

In baseball they teach to not swing at pitches in the dirt. I think that principle applies in many areas of life - including forums on the internet.

It's for comments like this, that add NOTHING to the OP, that I tend to prefer more moderated forums. The content and opinions tend to be a lot more reliable and useful.

Unreal

Well, spreading bad info that there is some magic coil that add 15-20hp is just as bad.

Midnight08

Based on my research, it's not bad info. And, I provided my general plan, since I considered that relevant info - I didn't mention, nor promote any particular product, since it's not germane to my question. My question was quite simple, local dyno-based tuner, or invest in a unit for working with a tuner via the internet. There are pros and cons for each option. My gut feel was that for me, working with the local tuner made the most sense, but wanted to see what others would say regarding these two options.

schpenxel

It is bad info, I don't care what your research says. If it were that easy to add 15-20hp GM would have done it

To answer your question I would do local tuner if he's any good, DiabLew otherwise.

Midnight08

Respectfully, not true.

In the design and especially production of any product there are always trade-offs. In business, cost of production is a key when creating a product for ones target audience. Cost of production comes from the cost/quality of the components, and the process needed to assemble that product. Component choice/design can also influence ease/lack of ease of that assembly. There is a reason the cost of a new car can range from well under $15K to well into seven figures. This is certainly true of the Corvette. If you doubt this, spend time in the Ask Tadge part of this website. I have found his explanations speaking to this very topic really interesting and informative.

I'm happy that GM has decided to produce one of the greatest values in the sports car market, but that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement, at a higher cost. Even within the different models they sell, that is reflected.

In this particular element, I suspect the cost to benefit ratio is not that great compared to investing the same amount in another area. But, my car, my resources, my choice. We could look at a whole host of components that people choose to replace/upgrade and debate the practical benefit of doing so. At the end of the day, GM has produced a great car and if we want to fiddle with it some more, we can.

Dcasole

Dude there is not a shot that a set of coils is going to add 20 to a LS motor..

and the guys you are debating right now are probably the most knowledgeable and helpful guys on this forum who by the way are also making some big power ....

You asked for an opinion and you got one , custom tune or Lew tune , but all these guys are telling you is don't expect a 20 hp gain or try to justify why you think you will get a 20 hp gain...

Dave

Midnight08

I asked a simple question. I made the mistake of providing more info than I needed to. If you want to give an opinion on the question, fine - that is EXACTLY what I asked for. I didn't ask for feedback on the things I was doing with my car.

I'm not debating with anyone. Whether I will see a gain (my opinion) or not from changing the coils wasn't germane to my question, so I feel no need to justify that choice. And there isn't any real debate since NO ONE has stated anything but generic objection.

Bottom line: I won't waste my time, nor that of others, with a question like this again. In more moderated forums I've been apart of, when a reply goes off topic, it's deleted. It encourages people to stick on topic.

Daviddear30

I would like to know the coils you want to add so I can research them too--no debating I want to read up

I just used Diablew and his customer service has been amazing!! If you are doing just bolt on stuff I recommend him

Daviddear30

To be fair your original post ended with this--
Opinion, thoughts, suggestions?

You got some great opinions. thoughts, and feedback. What forums do you prefer? This is the most helpful forum along with autogeek's forum that I have ever used.

Your original post does seem to contradict what the majority of people have found. Like the coils=20 hp and the lean codes for air intake ( I recently dealt with a lean code due to an o2 sensor + spark plug issue)

Midnight08

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm looking at the Malevolent Series GM coil packs (85kv) from Granatelli Motor Sports.

Your experience with Diablew mirrors what I read, in threads I went over when I first became aware of this option. The main downside is the initial investment for a device to connect to my car, and the time to learn it well enough to really utilize it.

For me, because I don't plan to get into changes to the fuel system, nor internal engine changes, once the headers are installed, I'm done with fiddling. I think it will be less expensive to work with a local tuner, so that is the direction I will be going.

Midnight08

I did end the OP that way - I should have recognized that opened the thread to comments on any tangent possible. Lesson learned.

In terms of apparent contraction regarding gain from coils, or lean codes from CAI intake, I would make these comments: As far as coils, the gains I read only came from install and tuning, not just installing them. AND, to be fair, I have read a number of people recommend tuning of a stock setup, with no parts changes and that alone leading to a gain of 10-20hp - just tweaking how that particular batch of parts are working together. So, I have to allow that the articles I read where they did a baseline dyno pull, then installed these coils, and used the dyno to tune the new collection of parts, the difference didn't come from the coils as much as it came from refining how the existing parts work together. I think in both cases the car was a car they had already done pulls on, as they had already made changes and tunes/tweaks, but I don't recall that for sure at this point, since it was many months ago when I did that research.

As far as CAI intake/lean codes, I would submit that most of the options do little to address the main area for improvement, so trigger no codes. If we are honest, I think we would recognize that most CAI "upgrades" amount to a different filter, one that is capable of flowing a higher volume of air than the stock filter. They may include a different air bridge, but it's still drawing air from the same warm air cavity that the stock set up does. A few of the companies aim to change this, either by drawing air from the same cooler air used to cool the radiator, or by some kind of ram effect, bringing in air from the front of the car. The most common in this later category is made by Vararam. People don't always see much dyno change with this system, because the heart of the system is grabbing cooler air, as the car drives through it, which does provide cooler and more air than the stock system and those that drag race have seen a measurable (in time) benefit from the system. In the research I did, there were mixed experiences with the Vararam products, as a function of quality and design. Many people really liked them, but not all. The design of the Ram Air SS, or the Callaway Honker, are very similar. One big downside of this option is initial cost is at the higher end in this range of products. Also, you have to cut up the stock radiator shroud (or buy a replacement - more additional cost), if you want to go back to stock. And, to be honest, the install was a real PITA - getting the shroud out, and back in was no small feat.

CAI and lean codes: Since most of the systems are drawing air from the same cavity as the stock setup, no lean codes are triggered. People are a bit delusional on a key point. Just because a filter can flow more air, doesn't mean the engine is going to use more air. The engine takes what it is designed/tuned to take. Think of it this way. If you put panty hose over your mouth and just breath, then take it off and breath. You aren't using more or less air, whether you have the panty hose over your mouth, or not. NOW, if you want to tune the car to use more fuel, then a higher flowing filter is a benefit, as long as the stock filter is actually a limiting factor. I'm not saying it is or isn't. But only installing a different filter isn't really changing anything, which is why most options in this segment don't throw lean codes after installed. Practically, without a tune, nothing has really changed. If, however I draw air from a cooler source (denser air, more 02) and the engine uses the same amount of fuel, since it doesn't know someone mucked with the engines source for air, the combination doesn't combust in the same way. It may throw the lean codes to say - "Hey buddy, I could use a little more fuel to more efficiently process the air you are giving me." And, to be honest, the fact that two of the best known tuners (Lingenfelter, Callaway) offer CAI systems that mirror the RAM Air SS I was considering was not lost on me. I chose the Ram Air SS because it was the least expensive of this style of CAI. Also, an earlier version of the Callaway CAI was more complex in the kind of hole one had to cut, and it was a smaller hole. Their current version is more like that of Lingenfelter and the Ram Air SS. From the reading I did, this style of intake definitely needs/benefits from tuning, to maximize the benefit. If you don't tweak the engine, to use more gas, then once the lean codes are cleared, the engine will learn to use a bit more gas over time, so not be triggered again, but most benefit comes from tuning.

I aim to deal with this stuff, as a scientist. Which is to say two things. I don't trust any one source of info. If that source provides info I can verify from an unrelated source, or many other unrelated sources, then I start to have some confidence about that info. The second point is that I try to cut through all marketing speak/fan ignorance/ego based defensiveness with critical thinking. I don't need someone to agree, or approve a choice I'm making, as I feel I tend to be more rigorous in my research than most people are. That doesn't mean I always get it right. I do my best, but once in awhile I miss a key element. So, I own that ignorance in me, and change what needs to be changed.

An easy example: Music has always been important to me. I've had a separate component based sound system for nearly four decades. In college though, I wanted "big sound" so was sure I needed big speakers to pull that off. I didn't understand many dynamics relative to power output of an amp and the resistance of given speaker. It is much more complex than most people understand, including most of the people I would talk to at a stereo store. They had speak to appeal to my ego and what I wanted to accomplish. When I later got into sound, at a professional level, it was only then that I really got a handle on how the many elements work together, and the key to balancing all the push/pull of the elements that are part of a sound system.

I'll close with a signature I found in photography forum I was once active in: "Please harshly criticize my photos. It helps me be better at this photography thing." I am here to learn and I aim to do that well, but there is a ton I don't know/understand, so I come here to address some of that.

Hope all are having a great day!

Daviddear30

I picked up the intune hand held tuner on here for $150 the 150 for tune from Diablew I saw 1 yesterday here for 200 they aren't the newest models but they still work :-)

Midnight08

That sounds like a great price, compared to others I saw.

The larger part of this for me is not wanting to open an area that I will need to invest tons of time of, to really tap into what the product is capable of. If I get into something I really get into it, committed to doing it poorly until I can do it well. I have other areas of time investment that are more important to me.