Source for understanding 2008 ECM?
03-01-2017, 08:33 AM
#1
Source for understanding 2008 ECM?
I am relatively new to Corvettes and especially new to tuning on one.
From another part of the forum, I saw a book mentioned that was just on the C6 and I thought it might help me out. In fact, it was a little helpful, but was covering the launch of the C6, in comparison to previous cars, so only covering 2005.
I have three other books that cover the Corvette history and within each generation a bit of info on what was changed year by year. That helped me to decide on a 2008 when it was my turn to get one.
Fast forward to the present. I have a 2008 M6 base coupe with a couple of simple mods on it and a brand spanking new Diablosport i2030 and will be working with Lewis Eaton to get things dialed in.
I am trying to get a handle on the ECM part of the computer system in the car. There are so many sensors and small computers all over this car, reading data and adapting on the fly and I am just trying to understand it. I'm trying to get a handle on how many different parameters the ECM changes and how I can work with the car to maximize its capability.
I know there are some really knowledgeable people in the forum and I can't get a direct download of their knowledge, but am trying to see what I can be pointed to, to start to develop some of that for me, as I seek to understand and explore my own car. And, FYI, my interests are more road coarse/general performance oriented, compared to 1/4 mile performance.
Will appreciate any suggestions you can offer. I have already learned so much from people here!!
P.S. One practical outgrowth of what I think I know is high skepticism for so called dyno "tests" that vendors do. They throw the car on the dyno, do some baseline pulls, then swap a part, and do some new pulls and show an outcome reflecting how great their part is. I am starting to understand how many data points the ECM monitors and the parameters it changes. A part swap requires many miles driven to determine how the ECM will adapt to the change and there is none of that considered if you just swap a part. I have no doubt that those with experience could tune the car proactively as they swap some parts, but that isn't usually a part of "the test," though often is suggested for full benefit.
From another part of the forum, I saw a book mentioned that was just on the C6 and I thought it might help me out. In fact, it was a little helpful, but was covering the launch of the C6, in comparison to previous cars, so only covering 2005.
I have three other books that cover the Corvette history and within each generation a bit of info on what was changed year by year. That helped me to decide on a 2008 when it was my turn to get one.
Fast forward to the present. I have a 2008 M6 base coupe with a couple of simple mods on it and a brand spanking new Diablosport i2030 and will be working with Lewis Eaton to get things dialed in.
I am trying to get a handle on the ECM part of the computer system in the car. There are so many sensors and small computers all over this car, reading data and adapting on the fly and I am just trying to understand it. I'm trying to get a handle on how many different parameters the ECM changes and how I can work with the car to maximize its capability.
I know there are some really knowledgeable people in the forum and I can't get a direct download of their knowledge, but am trying to see what I can be pointed to, to start to develop some of that for me, as I seek to understand and explore my own car. And, FYI, my interests are more road coarse/general performance oriented, compared to 1/4 mile performance.
Will appreciate any suggestions you can offer. I have already learned so much from people here!!
P.S. One practical outgrowth of what I think I know is high skepticism for so called dyno "tests" that vendors do. They throw the car on the dyno, do some baseline pulls, then swap a part, and do some new pulls and show an outcome reflecting how great their part is. I am starting to understand how many data points the ECM monitors and the parameters it changes. A part swap requires many miles driven to determine how the ECM will adapt to the change and there is none of that considered if you just swap a part. I have no doubt that those with experience could tune the car proactively as they swap some parts, but that isn't usually a part of "the test," though often is suggested for full benefit.
Last edited by Midnight08; 03-01-2017 at 08:40 AM. Reason: badd typing
03-01-2017, 11:47 AM
#2
Drifting
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St. Jude Donor '08
This will give you a start and you can expand from there.
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/forum...e-Gas-(Gen-4)&
https://www.hptuners.com/forum/forum...e-Gas-(Gen-4)&
03-01-2017, 03:18 PM
#3
Thanks! I'll check that out. I'm guessing it may be a little bit like a part of the Diablosport site I found that seems to cover the various OBDII supported PIDs and what they mean - I think. Honestly, I'm on the edge of my understanding, but trying to learn to use correct terms as I aim to understand the parameters and their impact on performance as a whole.
03-02-2017, 06:35 AM
#4
Le Mans Master
There are a lot of knowledgeable members here but a very small number that are actually able to advance your knowledge in a constructive way. In fact, you'll find one member here from whom you'll learn and really advance. Not meant to be a criticism as for a lot of us, it's just not in our nature to be good teachers without being offensive at the same time, myself included as I have to catch myself at times and exercise more patience.
One person who has advanced my E38 knowledge the most is not a member here but a member on the HPT site. He is a naturally good teacher and posts often on the Gen 4. I don't want to post his name w/o his permission but if you PM I will give it that way.
Some advice that I will give having gone down this same path, you will dead end quickly with the DiabloSport platform. You might not want to get more seriously into tuning past the DS, but if you do, you'll find that you'll need to restart on a much more serious platform like HPT. So, if you think you're going to get really in depth into it, save the step and go right to HPT. The support there will get you through. Only good news with DS is that I2s tend to resell pretty quickly at most of your money back.
One person who has advanced my E38 knowledge the most is not a member here but a member on the HPT site. He is a naturally good teacher and posts often on the Gen 4. I don't want to post his name w/o his permission but if you PM I will give it that way.
Some advice that I will give having gone down this same path, you will dead end quickly with the DiabloSport platform. You might not want to get more seriously into tuning past the DS, but if you do, you'll find that you'll need to restart on a much more serious platform like HPT. So, if you think you're going to get really in depth into it, save the step and go right to HPT. The support there will get you through. Only good news with DS is that I2s tend to resell pretty quickly at most of your money back.
Last edited by BlindSpot; 03-02-2017 at 09:16 PM.
03-02-2017, 07:42 AM
#5
Blindspot - I really appreciate your candor. I've done a ton of teaching over the years, and I think I understand the dynamic you describe. It has definitely gotten in my way around here at times. Once I am into something, I am intensely passionate about it and that can lean me toward impatience, etc.
Your comments about tuning platforms mirror things I've read to this point. I chose DB mainly because I'm a Mac guy, AND I don't intend to do that much to my car, but would like a tool that gives me a window into the inner workings. I have a chemistry degree and have always approached most aspects of life with a question or a theory that I'm wanting to use/test to gain a greater understanding of what's going on. And, your comments about HPT are clearly born out in other things I've been through, so if I find DB doesn't cover my interest, then I can look into that. I am likely to invest in a cheap Windows laptop as even with DB, the Mac support is functional, but not that great. My sense is that the real learning of how the parameters interact, influence and change over octane/rpm/temp ranges comes from going through the driving logs. In the chemistry lab, we had a mantra: "Everything tells you something, it may not tell you want you want, but it tells you something, so pay attention (to the details!)."
As was said in the movie Man From Snowy River, "Your always welcome at my fire." (or something like that)
Your comments about tuning platforms mirror things I've read to this point. I chose DB mainly because I'm a Mac guy, AND I don't intend to do that much to my car, but would like a tool that gives me a window into the inner workings. I have a chemistry degree and have always approached most aspects of life with a question or a theory that I'm wanting to use/test to gain a greater understanding of what's going on. And, your comments about HPT are clearly born out in other things I've been through, so if I find DB doesn't cover my interest, then I can look into that. I am likely to invest in a cheap Windows laptop as even with DB, the Mac support is functional, but not that great. My sense is that the real learning of how the parameters interact, influence and change over octane/rpm/temp ranges comes from going through the driving logs. In the chemistry lab, we had a mantra: "Everything tells you something, it may not tell you want you want, but it tells you something, so pay attention (to the details!)."
As was said in the movie Man From Snowy River, "Your always welcome at my fire." (or something like that)
03-02-2017, 11:23 AM
#6
Drifting
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St. Jude Donor '08
If you are interested in the theory of how your vehicle's systems work, then you will find "Engine Management - Advanced Tuning" by Greg Banish very interesting. If and when you want to learn how to actually tune your car, then the manuals from forum sponsor "The Tuning School" in Florida will explain in excruciating detail. And there are several other excellent examples of both that can be suggested later.
03-02-2017, 02:58 PM
#7
jim2092 - thanks for the additional post and options! I really appreciate you taking the time to point me to some additional resources. Will be checking those out. Clearly this can be a fairly in depth topic, and I enjoy getting into the nitty gritty in this kind of thing. I don't plan on building a HP monster to get 9s on a 1/4 mile hunk of asphalt, but I do like getting into the weeds - for understanding, and for making the most of the car I do have. And, if I upgrade parts, nice to have a realistic perspective on impact or no such a change can have. And, so much about these cars is computer driven, so it would be nice to have a deeper understanding of that and the parts we can tweak.
03-02-2017, 03:12 PM
#8
Drifting
When you say 'understanding', do you mean from a tuning/upgrading standpoint or from a control standpoint such as what inputs/outputs/signals go to the ECM, PIDS monitored, general computerized engine control, etc?
There is plenty of info on that kind of stuff in the GM service manuals regarding theory of operation on the ECM, serial & hi-speed data signals and how the various modules and subsystems communicate and rely on each other for data, fuel system, ignition system, charts of DTC's (diagnostic trouble codes) and what exact conditions will bring in those codes.
The same manuals do the same for all of the other systems of the car as well, ABS, Entertainment, Safety/Restraint systems, etc. They all talk to each other to make things happen in the background. A lot of times before trying to troubleshoot a problem on someone's vehicle, I'll read up on that stuff first as it will give me a better understanding of what interacts with something else. You'd be surprised how complex everything is & how it affects other systems that you would think are seemingly unrelated.
There is plenty of info on that kind of stuff in the GM service manuals regarding theory of operation on the ECM, serial & hi-speed data signals and how the various modules and subsystems communicate and rely on each other for data, fuel system, ignition system, charts of DTC's (diagnostic trouble codes) and what exact conditions will bring in those codes.
The same manuals do the same for all of the other systems of the car as well, ABS, Entertainment, Safety/Restraint systems, etc. They all talk to each other to make things happen in the background. A lot of times before trying to troubleshoot a problem on someone's vehicle, I'll read up on that stuff first as it will give me a better understanding of what interacts with something else. You'd be surprised how complex everything is & how it affects other systems that you would think are seemingly unrelated.
Last edited by jft69z; 03-02-2017 at 03:20 PM.
03-02-2017, 03:28 PM
#9
jft69z - I would say more from a tuning perspective. I know there is a tune, in essence one set of tables/values the car comes with. I know, with the right tools, one can make changes to many of these things. That said, I know a lot of this stuff is really interconnected and it's those relationships I'm trying to learn about.
Most commentary from people talking about some of this stuff seems (to me) to think like things were as they were decades ago, when there weren't so many data points in the car, nor all the computers that make minor tweaks, based on the conditions they detect and based on the values in the tune that is in place. I'm just trying to grow in my understanding of how the car works, in general - and then specifically how my car works, and what things I can see and tinker with.
Most commentary from people talking about some of this stuff seems (to me) to think like things were as they were decades ago, when there weren't so many data points in the car, nor all the computers that make minor tweaks, based on the conditions they detect and based on the values in the tune that is in place. I'm just trying to grow in my understanding of how the car works, in general - and then specifically how my car works, and what things I can see and tinker with.
03-02-2017, 03:41 PM
#10
Drifting
I still think a GM service manual would be a good investment. There is a ton of info in there of how the car works, plus it will help down the road if you need to repair something.
Last edited by jft69z; 03-03-2017 at 07:06 AM.
03-02-2017, 03:43 PM
#11
I did some poking around in the vendor area, without any success locating these guys. I searched by the name and just Tuning and also checked all the businesses based in Florida. Perhaps they have changed their name, moved, or called it a day.
03-02-2017, 05:00 PM
#12
Safety Car
They have YouTube channel also. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+tuning+school+florida
03-02-2017, 05:12 PM
#13
Trust in Google, my friend. They have YouTube channel also.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+tuning+school+florida
They have YouTube channel also. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=the+tuning+school+florida
Did some poking around on their site and it looks like their info is very tied to the HP Tuning platform, which I don't think I'll be getting into, as I don't anticipate needing that kind of granularity. Other suggestions should move me in helpful directions.
Last edited by Midnight08; 03-02-2017 at 05:21 PM. Reason: follow up
03-02-2017, 07:54 PM
#14
Race Director
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St. Jude Donor '15
Greg Banish has some good books to teach you how it all works. He also has some DVD's that will help get you started tuning, but they aren't cheap. The books are fairly low cost so I'd start there.
It's just air, fuel and spark
It's just air, fuel and spark
Last edited by schpenxel; 03-02-2017 at 07:54 PM.
03-02-2017, 08:09 PM
#15
schpenxel - appreciate the tips.
I've got one of his on order already and will do some further exploration to see what may serve my interests, as I prefer, when possible, to stick with one "teacher" when I'm trying to learn in an area new to me. Once I feel like I have a decent grasp, I like to expand from there.
I've got one of his on order already and will do some further exploration to see what may serve my interests, as I prefer, when possible, to stick with one "teacher" when I'm trying to learn in an area new to me. Once I feel like I have a decent grasp, I like to expand from there.
03-03-2017, 08:17 AM
#16
Race Director
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Location: Raleigh, NC
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St. Jude Donor '15
If you want to check out HPTuners, the software is free to download. The download is the full blown version, you just can't save or write new tunes without having an interface
So if you ever want to check out tunes or logs or anything like that you can do so without having to spend a dime..
I have stock tunes for just about everything out there if there's any in particular you want to look at
http://files.hptuners.com/VCM%20Suite/VCM%20Suite.msi
So if you ever want to check out tunes or logs or anything like that you can do so without having to spend a dime..
I have stock tunes for just about everything out there if there's any in particular you want to look at
http://files.hptuners.com/VCM%20Suite/VCM%20Suite.msi
Last edited by schpenxel; 03-03-2017 at 08:17 AM.
03-03-2017, 09:38 AM
#17
Safety Car
I don't believe DiabloSport gives you nearly as much control of the calibration as HP Tuners. It wouldn't hurt if you learned HP Tuners or EFI Live, as they give the most indepth information about what is actually going on.
03-03-2017, 09:46 AM
#18
schpenxel - I really appreciate the offer. I live in the Apple platform, and in fact had a business for 20+ years providing support for it, so no Windows platform at our house - currently.
That said, though the Diablosport hardware works in the Apple environment, it's just functional, and you really need the Windows environment for their support software, so may well invest in an inexpensive laptop so I can dig into it as much as I can. If I find I need to get deeper into this stuff, then clearly HPT is the platform for that, from all I have read to this point.
My practical sense is that for the few things I've done to my car, DB will likely handle the elements that can be tweaked to maximize those additions. Time will tell. I'm early in this journey.
Yes, from all I have read, this is clearly the case. Most of my friends moved to the Apple platform, even those that have made their living support systems/networks in that environment, so it's a bigger pill for me to jump back into that environment - but likely will, as need dictates.
That said, though the Diablosport hardware works in the Apple environment, it's just functional, and you really need the Windows environment for their support software, so may well invest in an inexpensive laptop so I can dig into it as much as I can. If I find I need to get deeper into this stuff, then clearly HPT is the platform for that, from all I have read to this point.
My practical sense is that for the few things I've done to my car, DB will likely handle the elements that can be tweaked to maximize those additions. Time will tell. I'm early in this journey.
Yes, from all I have read, this is clearly the case. Most of my friends moved to the Apple platform, even those that have made their living support systems/networks in that environment, so it's a bigger pill for me to jump back into that environment - but likely will, as need dictates.
Last edited by Midnight08; 03-03-2017 at 09:49 AM.
03-03-2017, 09:47 AM
#19
Safety Car
schpenxel - I really appreciate the offer. I live in the Apple platform, and in fact had a business for 20+ years providing support for it, so no Windows platform at our house - currently.
That said, though the Diablosport hardware works in the Apple environment, it's just functional, and you really need the Windows environment for their support software, so may well invest in an inexpensive laptop so I can dig into it as much as I can. If I find I need to get deeper into this stuff, then clearly HPT is the platform for that, from all I have read to this point.
My practical sense is that for the few things I've done to my car, DB will likely handle the elements that can be tweaked to maximize those additions. Time will tell. I'm early in this journey.
That said, though the Diablosport hardware works in the Apple environment, it's just functional, and you really need the Windows environment for their support software, so may well invest in an inexpensive laptop so I can dig into it as much as I can. If I find I need to get deeper into this stuff, then clearly HPT is the platform for that, from all I have read to this point.
My practical sense is that for the few things I've done to my car, DB will likely handle the elements that can be tweaked to maximize those additions. Time will tell. I'm early in this journey.
03-03-2017, 09:55 AM
#20
Yeah - that is more of mess in reality than on paper. You end up with three environments. True Apple platform - a mixed breed software platform that emulates the hardware foundation for Windows, and a kludgy, sometimes problematic port of Windows that can be a pain, for knowledgeable Windows people, as it doesn't work/perform the same as Windows running on hardware designed for it. In my business, when I had a customer that had needs only supported by the Windows platform, the wise choice was always to go with the correct hardware and platform. In a few instances duel boot worked, but very few. It was just a matter of wisdom. Emulating the hardware is easier on paper than it works in practice - at least in the areas that I was exposed to.