Lets talk about c6(not a z06) suspension
08-25-2006, 11:34 PM
#41
Originally Posted by ronsc1985
You are free to disagree however the facts are that in a car which was designed to roll a great deal in the corners a stiffer bar prevents excessive positive camber from occurring on the front tires in a turn. This effect is sometimes stronger than the extra weight transfer and the result is less understeer.
In oversteer you have adhesion and traction with the front wheels but the rear wheels lose traction, in understeer there is adhesion/traction with the rear wheels, but the fronts lose traction and the tendancy is for the car to continue along a straight path. (push/plow)
Larger stiffer front bar and the front tires will lose traction first (push or understeer). Larger stiffer rear bar and the rears will lose traction first (loose/ rear wheel slide/ oversteer)
Originally Posted by shopdog
Other way round. A bigger front bar makes the rear loose. A bigger rear bar makes the front loose.
But to the original poster, I agree wholeheartedly with C6400hp. You put those Z06 rear swaybars on that car and your oversteer problem is going to get worse.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1445622
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...88&postcount=8
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1386185
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1256080
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1262446
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...5&postcount=25
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 08-25-2006 at 11:43 PM.
08-26-2006, 01:11 AM
#42
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by DSOM Z51
I thought it was common knowledge that bigger front bars increase push/understeer, and bigger rear bars increase oversteer.
08-26-2006, 08:29 AM
#43
Melting Slicks
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Another good book is "How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn. If you all read this book and Caroll Smith's book there will be no controversy.
08-26-2006, 08:41 AM
#44
Team Owner
Originally Posted by dave pawlowski
Another good book is "How to make your car handle" by Fred Puhn. If you all read this book and Caroll Smith's book there will be no controversy.
Thanks!
08-26-2006, 08:45 AM
#45
Team Owner
Originally Posted by ronsc1985
You are free to disagree however the facts are that in a car which was designed to roll a great deal in the corners a stiffer bar prevents excessive positive camber from occurring on the front tires in a turn. This effect is sometimes stronger than the extra weight transfer and the result is less understeer.
But I have to agree with DSOM Z51 - I would be willing on betting that if someone takes an other wise stock C6 (non-Z06) and just adds a rear Z06 bar, they will find their car oversteers more. I am not willing on going that route as I don't plan to spend enough track time learning to deal with it.
Like most owners, I drive my car on the street and the oversteer usually only comes into play when you get into a turn too hot - and it's too late to deal with if you don't have a lot of practice learning to handle it properly.
08-26-2006, 09:24 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by jschindler
If the book will resolve all of the controversy, then how about telling us what it says about this subject?
Thanks!
Thanks!
08-26-2006, 09:28 AM
#47
Burning Brakes
My personal experience on a C6 Z51 with Z06 shocks on it already:
I installed the Z06 stiffer front spring only. I drove it around for about a week. I noticed the front end push a little bit more when taking on-off ramps hard. The car had less of a neutral feeling than before, although it did not feel that bad, IMO
I then installed the Z06 stiffer rear sway bar and then the cars balance became more neutral feeling again.
I installed the Z06 stiffer front spring only. I drove it around for about a week. I noticed the front end push a little bit more when taking on-off ramps hard. The car had less of a neutral feeling than before, although it did not feel that bad, IMO
I then installed the Z06 stiffer rear sway bar and then the cars balance became more neutral feeling again.
08-26-2006, 10:12 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by ronsc1985
You are free to disagree however the facts are that in a car which was designed to roll a great deal in the corners a stiffer bar prevents excessive positive camber from occurring on the front tires in a turn. This effect is sometimes stronger than the extra weight transfer and the result is less understeer.
08-26-2006, 10:19 AM
#50
Originally Posted by jschindler
You seem to be alone in your thinking. I've been reading about suspensions as long as you have, and everything I have ever read contradicts your stance.
08-26-2006, 12:03 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by Jeffvette
http://www.springmountainmotorsports.com
From the video, if you can't follow the line out of there, I can only imagine what it's like in the esses.
From the video, if you can't follow the line out of there, I can only imagine what it's like in the esses.
08-26-2006, 12:11 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by DSOM Z51
This discussion, or variants of it have shown up here before. Stiffen one end of the car and not the other, and the stiffer end will lose traction first.
In oversteer you have adhesion and traction with the frontwheels but the rear wheels lose traction, in understeer there is adhesion/traction with the rear wheels, but the fronts lose traction and the tendancy is for the car to continue along a straight path. (push/plow)
Larger stiffer front bar and the front tires will lose traction first (push or understeer). Larger stiffer rear bar and the rears will lose traction first (loose/ rear wheel slide/ oversteer)
Its the exact opposite.
But to the original poster, I agree wholeheartedly with C6400hp. You put those Z06 rear swaybars on that car and your oversteer problem is going to get worse.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1445622
In oversteer you have adhesion and traction with the frontwheels but the rear wheels lose traction, in understeer there is adhesion/traction with the rear wheels, but the fronts lose traction and the tendancy is for the car to continue along a straight path. (push/plow)
Larger stiffer front bar and the front tires will lose traction first (push or understeer). Larger stiffer rear bar and the rears will lose traction first (loose/ rear wheel slide/ oversteer)
Its the exact opposite.
But to the original poster, I agree wholeheartedly with C6400hp. You put those Z06 rear swaybars on that car and your oversteer problem is going to get worse.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1445622
I am not looking to get rid of the oversteer guys, i am looking to get rid of the suprising oversteer and would like a more of controlled oversteer. From reading the url which i underlined it explains that z06 bars and tire pressure change will help u control that suprise oversteer. i would like to stay flat through the corner but i would also like to put the power down through the corner not just speed up-hit the brakes-turn in-cruise through the corner.
08-26-2006, 12:23 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by shopdog
Ok, so the consensus seems to be that a stiffer front bar will cause more understeer, slowing me in the corners, and a stiffer rear bar will cause more oversteer, also slowing me in the corners. So logically, I want to remove the Z51 bars from my car. That should, according to the theories of you guys, make the car faster around the corners. Wonder why Chevy didn't think of that? Oh, wait, they did, the base suspension car is obviously the fastest around the track. I should have known.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1431370&page=3
08-26-2006, 12:23 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by 300cawd
Thanks a lot for this post.
I am not looking to get rid of the oversteer guys, i am looking to get rid of the suprising oversteer and would like a more of controlled oversteer. From reading the url which i underlined it explains that z06 bars and tire pressure change will help u control that suprise oversteer. i would like to stay flat through the corner but i would also like to put the power down through the corner not just speed up-hit the brakes-turn in-cruise through the corner.
I am not looking to get rid of the oversteer guys, i am looking to get rid of the suprising oversteer and would like a more of controlled oversteer. From reading the url which i underlined it explains that z06 bars and tire pressure change will help u control that suprise oversteer. i would like to stay flat through the corner but i would also like to put the power down through the corner not just speed up-hit the brakes-turn in-cruise through the corner.
Great info in this post.
Between sways and adjustable shocks you should be able to tune your handling.
08-26-2006, 12:42 PM
#55
Race Director
IMO find someone that really knows how to set the suspension up. GM's setup is at best a compromise. Different track and road conditions will want different settings.
08-26-2006, 02:45 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by shopdog
Ok, so the consensus seems to be that a stiffer front bar will cause more understeer, slowing me in the corners, and a stiffer rear bar will cause more oversteer, also slowing me in the corners. So logically, I want to remove the Z51 bars from my car. That should, according to the theories of you guys, make the car faster around the corners. Wonder why Chevy didn't think of that? Oh, wait, they did, the base suspension car is obviously the fastest around the track. I should have known.
Originally Posted by Blocktrdr
All this is wrong. First, in the C5 where the cars had the same suspension geometry, the Z06 had a different front bar. The rears were the same. This helped counter the oversteer that would come from the extra HP. Also, the sway bars have to fit in with the rest of the suspension. When they stiffen the springs and shocks they stiffen the sway bars to match.
If a car is turning right the body rolls left. The spring compresses. The sway bar wants to follow it up. On the right side the suspension extends. The sway bar tries to counter this and transfers load away from the tire, not to it. All else being equal, the no sway bar would offer the most grip. The problem is that at a certain point the car rolls enough that the center of gravity raises. The other issue is that the further the car rolls the longer it takes so transient response suffers.
Thus sway bars should be at the happy medium wher the car generates the most grip while losing the least CG and maintaining the best transient response
If a car is turning right the body rolls left. The spring compresses. The sway bar wants to follow it up. On the right side the suspension extends. The sway bar tries to counter this and transfers load away from the tire, not to it. All else being equal, the no sway bar would offer the most grip. The problem is that at a certain point the car rolls enough that the center of gravity raises. The other issue is that the further the car rolls the longer it takes so transient response suffers.
Thus sway bars should be at the happy medium wher the car generates the most grip while losing the least CG and maintaining the best transient response
Last edited by Blocktrdr; 08-26-2006 at 02:50 PM.
08-26-2006, 03:30 PM
#57
Le Mans Master
Originally Posted by jlamberti
just like i had stated on post # 45, chopdog will NEVER admit he is wrong. now it looks like he still is having a hard time learning from others too. hmmm...
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1431370&page=3
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1431370&page=3
No, the sun sets in the East, I swear, there is nothing you can say or do, there are no books, logic, common sense, or years and years of experience that will ever convince me otherwise. So, please just let me be!
Thanks,
Shopdot
08-26-2006, 04:11 PM
#58
Team Owner
Originally Posted by shopdog
Ok, so the consensus seems to be that a stiffer front bar will cause more understeer, slowing me in the corners, and a stiffer rear bar will cause more oversteer, also slowing me in the corners. So logically, I want to remove the Z51 bars from my car. That should, according to the theories of you guys, make the car faster around the corners. Wonder why Chevy didn't think of that? Oh, wait, they did, the base suspension car is obviously the fastest around the track. I should have known.
08-26-2006, 04:41 PM
#59
Melting Slicks
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Originally Posted by 300cawd
Thanks a lot for this post.
I am not looking to get rid of the oversteer guys, i am looking to get rid of the suprising oversteer and would like a more of controlled oversteer. From reading the url which i underlined it explains that z06 bars and tire pressure change will help u control that suprise oversteer. i would like to stay flat through the corner but i would also like to put the power down through the corner not just speed up-hit the brakes-turn in-cruise through the corner.
I am not looking to get rid of the oversteer guys, i am looking to get rid of the suprising oversteer and would like a more of controlled oversteer. From reading the url which i underlined it explains that z06 bars and tire pressure change will help u control that suprise oversteer. i would like to stay flat through the corner but i would also like to put the power down through the corner not just speed up-hit the brakes-turn in-cruise through the corner.
08-27-2006, 01:42 AM
#60
Originally Posted by shopdog
Ok, so the consensus seems to be that a stiffer front bar will cause more understeer, slowing me in the corners, and a stiffer rear bar will cause more oversteer, also slowing me in the corners. So logically, I want to remove the Z51 bars from my car. That should, according to the theories of you guys, make the car faster around the corners. Wonder why Chevy didn't think of that? Oh, wait, they did, the base suspension car is obviously the fastest around the track. I should have known.
Save yourself some dignity man. Just this once admit that you don't know everything and quit with this facade of being the resident genius.