Broken Header Bolt Part II
03-26-2007, 08:38 PM
#1
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Broken Header Bolt Part II
To get yourself up to speed, have a look at my prior thread where I broke the front header bolt torqueing down my LG Pro headers attempting to fix a leak on the driver's side. Front port.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1657045
Anyway, only a very few mm of bolt were extruding from the cylinder head. Decision was made to "drill the bolt out".
On Friday, I called the guy who owns the speed shop which did some of the work on my C5.
"No problem, we'll get it out. I can't tell you how long it will take because its slow and tedious, but I can drill it out. Also, I'll check the header flange to find out just why you had the leak in the first place. Meantime, get some metal gaskets if you don't have them already."
I took it in this AM. He had to remove the alternator to get to it, but he got it. The header flange was fine, but there were some leaks at the band clamps under the car which he addressed too.
Epilogue:
I am convinced that this was an installer's error. When I failed to tighten evenly from the center out and directed my attention heavily to the rearmost bolt near the firewall, I created a small gap, perhaps 2-3mm at the front.
Since the headers were not fully torqued up to the heads at that time, but the header bolts were "snugged up" when I put the cats on and the rest of the system, and then torqued that rear part of the system down, that "maintained" the gap at the front part of the header flange and the head.
Finally when I put the final touches, the last few turns on the header bolts, the gap was just enough to cause a very small leak. You could not see it of course. Attempts to remedy the leak should have included loosening the entire system, or at least that side of it, at least past the cats, and then tightening the header to the head in a "center out manner" and working backwards towards the X Pipe.
This was my original intent. Instead, I simply removed the header from the head, finagled it a bit until I thought it was going straight onto the head, and then tightened center out.
This got it close, but not quite enough. I then compounded the error by thinking "Just tighten the bolts a little more and that should do it."
A brand new metal gasket with a little Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket Sealant would have been a good idea too.
$192.00 later, all of this is of course quite apparent.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1657045
Anyway, only a very few mm of bolt were extruding from the cylinder head. Decision was made to "drill the bolt out".
On Friday, I called the guy who owns the speed shop which did some of the work on my C5.
"No problem, we'll get it out. I can't tell you how long it will take because its slow and tedious, but I can drill it out. Also, I'll check the header flange to find out just why you had the leak in the first place. Meantime, get some metal gaskets if you don't have them already."
I took it in this AM. He had to remove the alternator to get to it, but he got it. The header flange was fine, but there were some leaks at the band clamps under the car which he addressed too.
Epilogue:
I am convinced that this was an installer's error. When I failed to tighten evenly from the center out and directed my attention heavily to the rearmost bolt near the firewall, I created a small gap, perhaps 2-3mm at the front.
Since the headers were not fully torqued up to the heads at that time, but the header bolts were "snugged up" when I put the cats on and the rest of the system, and then torqued that rear part of the system down, that "maintained" the gap at the front part of the header flange and the head.
Finally when I put the final touches, the last few turns on the header bolts, the gap was just enough to cause a very small leak. You could not see it of course. Attempts to remedy the leak should have included loosening the entire system, or at least that side of it, at least past the cats, and then tightening the header to the head in a "center out manner" and working backwards towards the X Pipe.
This was my original intent. Instead, I simply removed the header from the head, finagled it a bit until I thought it was going straight onto the head, and then tightened center out.
This got it close, but not quite enough. I then compounded the error by thinking "Just tighten the bolts a little more and that should do it."
A brand new metal gasket with a little Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket Sealant would have been a good idea too.
$192.00 later, all of this is of course quite apparent.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 03-27-2007 at 12:00 AM.
03-26-2007, 08:45 PM
#2
Moderator
Member Since: Dec 2002
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FL
Posts: 40,065
Received 3,578 Likes
on
1,619 Posts
Glad it all worked out!
03-26-2007, 08:46 PM
#3
Race Director
To get yourself up to speed, have a look at my prior thread where I broke the front header bolt attempting to torque down my LG Pro headers attempting to fix a leak.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1657045
Anyway, only a very few mm of bolt were extruding from the cylinder head. Decision was made to "drill the bolt out".
On Friday, I called the guy who owns the speed shop which did some of the work on my C5.
"No problem, we'll get it out. I can't tell you how long it will take because its slow and tedious, but I can drill it out. Also, I'll check the header flange to find out just why you had the leak in the first place. Meantime, get some metal gaskets if you don't have them already."
I took it in this AM. He had to remove the alternator to get to it, but he got it. The header flange was fine, but there were some leaks at the band clamps under the car which he addressed too.
Epilogue:
I am convinced that this was an installer's error. When I failed to tighten evenly from the center out and directed my attention heavily to the rearmost bolt near the firewall, I created a small gap, perhaps 2-3mm at the front.
Since the headers were not fully torqued up to the heads at that time, when I put the cats on and the rest of the system, and then torqued that part of the system down, that "maintained" the gap by.
Finally when I put the final touches on the headers, the gap was just enough to cause a very small leak. Attempts to remedy the leak should have included loosening the entire system, or at least that side of it at least past the cats, and then tightening the header to the head in a "center out manner" and working backwards towards the X Pipe.
This was my original intent. Instead, I simply removed the header from the head, finagled it a bit until I thought it was going straight onto the head, and then tightened center out.
This got it close, but not quite. I then compounded the error by thinking "Just tighten the bolts a little more and that should do it."
A brand new metal gasket with a little Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket Sealant would have been a good idea too.
$192.00 later, all of this is of course quite apparent.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1657045
Anyway, only a very few mm of bolt were extruding from the cylinder head. Decision was made to "drill the bolt out".
On Friday, I called the guy who owns the speed shop which did some of the work on my C5.
"No problem, we'll get it out. I can't tell you how long it will take because its slow and tedious, but I can drill it out. Also, I'll check the header flange to find out just why you had the leak in the first place. Meantime, get some metal gaskets if you don't have them already."
I took it in this AM. He had to remove the alternator to get to it, but he got it. The header flange was fine, but there were some leaks at the band clamps under the car which he addressed too.
Epilogue:
I am convinced that this was an installer's error. When I failed to tighten evenly from the center out and directed my attention heavily to the rearmost bolt near the firewall, I created a small gap, perhaps 2-3mm at the front.
Since the headers were not fully torqued up to the heads at that time, when I put the cats on and the rest of the system, and then torqued that part of the system down, that "maintained" the gap by.
Finally when I put the final touches on the headers, the gap was just enough to cause a very small leak. Attempts to remedy the leak should have included loosening the entire system, or at least that side of it at least past the cats, and then tightening the header to the head in a "center out manner" and working backwards towards the X Pipe.
This was my original intent. Instead, I simply removed the header from the head, finagled it a bit until I thought it was going straight onto the head, and then tightened center out.
This got it close, but not quite. I then compounded the error by thinking "Just tighten the bolts a little more and that should do it."
A brand new metal gasket with a little Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket Sealant would have been a good idea too.
$192.00 later, all of this is of course quite apparent.
Glad you got it.
03-26-2007, 08:57 PM
#5
Team Owner
Thread Starter
The guys did a great job. I now realize that I also had slight leakes in the rest of the system too. It sounds "different" now that they have gone over everything with a fine toothed comb and tightend all bolts and clamps.
03-26-2007, 09:44 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
$192 is cheap! You are a smart man. Like Inspector Harry Callahan once said, "A man's got to know his limitations."
Let's look at another scenario.
Right angle drill attachment: $40
Broken drill bit: $4
Broken Easy Out: $10
Labor to remove the head and then elox out the broken bit and easy out: $400
Machine work to helicoil the buggered up hole in the head: $100
I'd say you saved a lot of pain, aggravation, and money.
Good job,
Glenn
Let's look at another scenario.
Right angle drill attachment: $40
Broken drill bit: $4
Broken Easy Out: $10
Labor to remove the head and then elox out the broken bit and easy out: $400
Machine work to helicoil the buggered up hole in the head: $100
I'd say you saved a lot of pain, aggravation, and money.
Good job,
Glenn
03-26-2007, 10:41 PM
#10
Moderator
Member Since: Dec 2002
Location: Lakewood Ranch, FL
Posts: 40,065
Received 3,578 Likes
on
1,619 Posts
$192 is cheap! You are a smart man. Like Inspector Harry Callahan once said, "A man's got to know his limitations."
Let's look at another scenario.
Right angle drill attachment: $40
Broken drill bit: $4
Broken Easy Out: $10
Labor to remove the head and then elox out the broken bit and easy out: $400
Machine work to helicoil the buggered up hole in the head: $100
I'd say you saved a lot of pain, aggravation, and money.
Good job,
Glenn
Let's look at another scenario.
Right angle drill attachment: $40
Broken drill bit: $4
Broken Easy Out: $10
Labor to remove the head and then elox out the broken bit and easy out: $400
Machine work to helicoil the buggered up hole in the head: $100
I'd say you saved a lot of pain, aggravation, and money.
Good job,
Glenn
03-26-2007, 10:47 PM
#11
Team Owner
Thread Starter
$192 is cheap! You are a smart man. Like Inspector Harry Callahan once said, "A man's got to know his limitations."
Let's look at another scenario.
Right angle drill attachment: $40
Broken drill bit: $4
Broken Easy Out: $10
Labor to remove the head and then elox out the broken bit and easy out: $400
Machine work to helicoil the buggered up hole in the head: $100
I'd say you saved a lot of pain, aggravation, and money.
Good job,
Glenn
Let's look at another scenario.
Right angle drill attachment: $40
Broken drill bit: $4
Broken Easy Out: $10
Labor to remove the head and then elox out the broken bit and easy out: $400
Machine work to helicoil the buggered up hole in the head: $100
I'd say you saved a lot of pain, aggravation, and money.
Good job,
Glenn
I had the weekend to contemplate getting my hands on a right angle drill and giving it a go, but in this case, common sense prevailed. I have never done a broken bolt removal, and after having the weekend to read up on the "ins and outs" of it, I knew right away that I didn't want my first attempt to be on my aluminum cylinder head.
A friend of mine and a C5 Z06 owner related a story to me where he had done the same thing on one of his cars, broken a header bolt, and had a machine shop attempt removal of it and they ended up in the "water jacket"????.
I dropped the car off before the shop opened at around 7:00 AM and left the FOB. The owner had told me on Friday, that he would get to it at around 10:00.
When 12:00 rolled around and I had not heard anything, I called expecting him to tell me,: "We're gonna have to pull the head because we can't get a good shot at that bolt."
From what I had read, both in the C5 section and elsewhere on the net, you have to "center punch" the remaining piece. That is, make a starting dent in the center of that bolt, to keep the drill bit from "dancing". Then a pilot hole has to be drilled with a small diameter bit, and you have to go to progressively larger bits. You have to go pretty straight into the bolt. From an awkward position. This is why some prefer to pull the head and work on it on a bench.
Trouble was it broke on a bias.. Some say you have to grind it down flat. Then, those bits are so hard that if you break one, or if you are using an EZ out, if you break one, it is impossible to get it out because they are so hard.
When he told me: "Oh, we got it out. You know, thats a hardened bolt. I went through three drill bits getting it out. We are going through the system checking your clamps right now and a few of them could stand to be tightened as we have come across a couple other leaks, one with moisture coming between the header flange and the catalytic converter. We put in another OEM bolt and everything worked out fine. I saved the bolt for you."
I was so happy I didn't even ask him how much it came to. Had to call back and ask. At that time he recommended a larger band type clamp at all of the connections from the header flanges on back. I might take it back and have him do this, but I don't know about the header studs yet.
BTW, had it been that last header bolt, closest to the firewall, forget about it. No way he could have gotten an angle on it. It would have been head pulling time.
Here is some light reading for you:
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/may2003/techtotech.htm
http://www.madelectrical.com/worksho...en-bolts.shtml (this is the method he used)
http://www.dimebank.com/tech/BrokenBolt.html
http://www.nextag.com/stud-extractor/search-html
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 03-26-2007 at 11:00 PM.
03-26-2007, 10:56 PM
#13
Was the flange straight???
So, did you put a straight edge to the flange?
Was it dead nuts flat, without warp or voids?
Was it dead nuts flat, without warp or voids?
Last edited by LOS ANGELES PI; 03-26-2007 at 11:02 PM. Reason: space ships
03-26-2007, 11:18 PM
#14
Team Owner
Thread Starter
One of the first things he told me on Friday, when I asked him how long I would be without the car, was that this would be what he would do, check the flange and the welds, in an attempt to find out WHY I got the leak in the first place.
He said : "You know if anything is wrong with that flange, you're looking at sending that header back, right? Cause you'll never get the leak sealed if that flange is off". He also did not seem happy that I was not using metal gaskets when I talked to him on Friday.
He usually installs KOOKS, when I told him that they were LGs he said. "Good company and I'm sure they'll stand behind their product if there is anything wrong with it". And if there was, I am sure he would have told me.
He mentioned no problem with the flange and the fact that it is dead nuts tight right now proves that it was an initial install error.
Right now, there is no air whatsoever coming from along the side of that header when I put my hand in the area, and I have driven the car a few miles now and no trace of soot nor sound of leak. Indeed, he tightend up the entire system and it sounds overall better now than it did when I completed the install.
If there is a question as to whether Borlas quality control, or my install error caused the leak, I would lean towards an install error. Borla makes several sets of headers. Way more than I have installed.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 03-27-2007 at 12:10 AM.
03-26-2007, 11:31 PM
#15
Team Owner
Thread Starter
And 
with you 100%. This is what makes the forum as effective as it is.Errors have to be reported, if for no other reason to perhaps prevent someone else from making the same error, like you say.
Also management of mishaps should be reported. In other words "what did you do afterwards to deal with the situation?"
All of that needs to be put out there. So while I appreciate your post, as a forum member here, I sort of feel obligated to tell all of what happened.
Last edited by '06 Quicksilver Z06; 03-28-2007 at 08:34 PM.
03-27-2007, 12:47 AM
#18
Le Mans Master
The older I get, the dumber I was. I've learned through years of doing automotive work it's best to keep a level head. DSOM, you did just that. It's also good to know when to bring in the experts. I learned that from my father.
I was 17 (a long time ago!) and trying to put a clutch in my 68 Firebird 400. I could not stab the tranny to save my life. Then the foreman of my Dad's farm came by and he tried. He was strong as an Ox and was really man handling it. When my Dad came out to see what was going on, the car moved on the cheap jackstands I was using.
My Dad took one look at it, told everyone to get out from under the car, called a tow truck and had it towed down to the Chevy dealer. They finished the clutch install and nobody was killed!
The best part was my Dad never got mad and he picked up the bill. He was a great Father in that way. Very level headed, always did the right thing, and was one of the most generous men I've ever known. I have my C6 because he left a little behind when he passed away. Just wish he were still here, he would have loved "our" C6!!!
I was 17 (a long time ago!) and trying to put a clutch in my 68 Firebird 400. I could not stab the tranny to save my life. Then the foreman of my Dad's farm came by and he tried. He was strong as an Ox and was really man handling it. When my Dad came out to see what was going on, the car moved on the cheap jackstands I was using.
My Dad took one look at it, told everyone to get out from under the car, called a tow truck and had it towed down to the Chevy dealer. They finished the clutch install and nobody was killed!
The best part was my Dad never got mad and he picked up the bill. He was a great Father in that way. Very level headed, always did the right thing, and was one of the most generous men I've ever known. I have my C6 because he left a little behind when he passed away. Just wish he were still here, he would have loved "our" C6!!!
03-27-2007, 07:12 AM
#19
Le Mans Master
The older I get, the dumber I was. I've learned through years of doing automotive work it's best to keep a level head. DSOM, you did just that. It's also good to know when to bring in the experts. I learned that from my father.
I was 17 (a long time ago!) and trying to put a clutch in my 68 Firebird 400. I could not stab the tranny to save my life. Then the foreman of my Dad's farm came by and he tried. He was strong as an Ox and was really man handling it. When my Dad came out to see what was going on, the car moved on the cheap jackstands I was using.
My Dad took one look at it, told everyone to get out from under the car, called a tow truck and had it towed down to the Chevy dealer. They finished the clutch install and nobody was killed!
The best part was my Dad never got mad and he picked up the bill. He was a great Father in that way. Very level headed, always did the right thing, and was one of the most generous men I've ever known. I have my C6 because he left a little behind when he passed away. Just wish he were still here, he would have loved "our" C6!!!
I was 17 (a long time ago!) and trying to put a clutch in my 68 Firebird 400. I could not stab the tranny to save my life. Then the foreman of my Dad's farm came by and he tried. He was strong as an Ox and was really man handling it. When my Dad came out to see what was going on, the car moved on the cheap jackstands I was using.
My Dad took one look at it, told everyone to get out from under the car, called a tow truck and had it towed down to the Chevy dealer. They finished the clutch install and nobody was killed!
The best part was my Dad never got mad and he picked up the bill. He was a great Father in that way. Very level headed, always did the right thing, and was one of the most generous men I've ever known. I have my C6 because he left a little behind when he passed away. Just wish he were still here, he would have loved "our" C6!!!
03-27-2007, 08:39 AM
#20
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2000
Location: Conroe Texas
Posts: 35,242
Received 865 Likes
on
608 Posts
CI 1-4-5-8-9-10 Vet
St. Jude Donor '03,'04,'05,'07,08,'09,'10,’17
Thanks for the And with you 100%. This is what makes the forum as effective as it is.
Errors have to be reported, if for no other reason to perhaps prevent someone else from making the same error, like you say.
Also management of mishaps should be reported. In other words "what did you do afterwards" to deal with the situation?"
All of that needs to be put out there. So while I appreciate your post, as a forum member here, I sort of feel obligated to tell all of what happened.
And with you 100%. This is what makes the forum as effective as it is.Errors have to be reported, if for no other reason to perhaps prevent someone else from making the same error, like you say.
Also management of mishaps should be reported. In other words "what did you do afterwards" to deal with the situation?"
All of that needs to be put out there. So while I appreciate your post, as a forum member here, I sort of feel obligated to tell all of what happened.
We do the same thing at work - sharing "lessons learned" which benefits the entire group. 