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Old 09-25-2009, 04:56 AM   #1
SpinMonster
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Default METHheadMONSTER: Using Meth Injection for non-boost applications

OK, that should have read METHhead-camMONSTER. Dont read the title being about meth injection and dismiss it that its an FI-only mod. This thread is about getting 20HP added to your existing N/A car. No more 91 octane limits on tuning and no more hot as Texas low HP days............... but first...........


As always, before getting into this write-up, I would like to ask each person reading to know a big part of my motivation is the St. Jude’s fundraising effort on this board. I don’t think its much of a reach to understand why this cause is so important but unless you suffer such a painful loss as a result of a childhood destroyed by various illnesses I don’t think you could see it from the point of view of it happening to your world. The loss of a child changes you forever and I will never be able to relay the pain associated with it. Take a moment and send 20 bucks to this charity. We have the means to send robots to mars so I believe we can beat cancer, sudden infant death, and form new medications.
I have a dream.....that one day it will say St Jude's Donor under everyone's name.

---------------Make a difference TODAY------------------
How to donate:

1) Personal checks, cashier checks, or money orders, made out to: St. Jude Children's Hospital and mailed to "pewter99,":

Robert Briggs
P.O. Box 17083
Clearwater Fl 33762

Please put your forum name on the memo line of the check

2) paypal: corvettes4stjude@aol.com

3) Go to:
https://waystohelp.stjude.org/sjVPor...9&programId=51
Follow promts, we get credit for this method.


WHY METH AND NOT E85?
E85 is a great fuel however the ruler of the universe created corvettes with complicated fuel systems. E85 lowers you fuel capacity by 30% because it flows at a 30% faster rate for the same HP production. Methanol if used right can actually add to the HP limit of the fuel system because it is a fuel itself.

APPLICATIONS:
N/A head/cam cars
Stock cars in hot areas
Higher compression cars
FI but we have seen that already with great success.

POWER INCREASES:
N/A would see 15-20 HP from cooler intake air temperatures and full timing curves.

Fuel system extension isnt just limited to the fuel pump. The injectors will be extended in high HP applications too by about 10% too. The meth isnt going into the engine by the ijectors but rather its own nozzle. 40lb injecotrs will support 600rwhp and 32's on the LS2 will hit 525rw.

OBJECTIVE:
OK once you get past the meth-head part which some may relate to in ways I don’t mean here, you see our objective is Meth Injection not Meth inhalation. I am of course referring to the fuel methanol and not the drug made with general household chemicals that rots teeth and alters brain chemistry, destroying lives. Say no to that. So get off your butt and run to the window, open it, and yell at the top of your lungs, “I am a meth head and I love it”! The neighbors will shun you but the ricers will fear you.

Methanol is a fuel and as such it will extend somewhat, the fuel system capabilities especially if used in a 100% solution. A quick left hand turn here to dispel a myth. Those who elect to not use 50/50 mix or to those who choose to use windshield wiper fluid because they know methanol is flammable and wiper fluid isn’t, poor a gallon of it on the ground and stand in the middle of the puddle and drop a match. Yes it is flammable. Don’t think because it’s got water in it that it isn’t. A quick read by the local fuel stop-quickie mart will have this printed on the WW fluid bottle in usually more than one language.

The big benefit is two-fold: Tuning is greatly enhanced by the added octane that is north of 115 octane but there is another benefit for those people in really hot areas where IAT’s climb so high. Meth injection is chemical intercooling. Like nitrous, it can lower IAT’s donw 30 degrees (nitrous is more like 60-70 depending on the shot size and as follows, the size of your stones).

COST of SYSTEM and COST of USE:
Various systems cost in the 475 to 600 dollar range with a monthly cost of use involving the refill of the methanol, water/meth mix, or windshield wiper fluid which contains 30-40% methanol. Some people have just sprayed water alone which I don’t know much about. Now you PHD engineers feel free to show your knowledge and share that info on my thread to steal some thunder. You may as well since others will undoubtedly chime in to correct me and belittle if they see anything they can use. The WW tank holds about 1.6 gallons and I have never used an entire gallon in a single month so its less than 7 bucks a month to use with VP fuels M3 100% meth solution, 7 bucks a month for Snow Performance’s Boost Juice, or 3 bucks a gallon at the local fuel-mart. Unlike octane boost which pales in comparison on octane, the engine is only burning meth under load. While driving normally such a cruise on the hiway, you aren’t using meth. (I am well aware that normal driving is varied for many and what a daily driver guy calls normal isn’t what Powerlabs calls normal. He should factor in 21 bucks a month for normal use.)

INSTALLATION:
Methanol is easiest installed using a kit from a great source and using the windshield wiper fluid reservoir. Space is tight so this simplifies the install and the WW tank also has a low level sensing unit that will display on your DIC that wiper fluid is low. The kit I used was the ECS/ALKY control kit which consists of a pump which is installed very close to the WW tank, a control unit, a remote adjustment box usually installed inside the driver’s reach, and a system of one or two nozzles in the intake tract of the engine where it sprays the methanol into the engine only while its under load. You should use a smaller than FI nozzle too and they arent hard to come by. Contact the vendor of your kit about this.

To install the system, you first drain the WW tank and then remove the three bolts that mount the tank to the car and re-drill 3 holes under the factory mounting holes and reinstall the bolts. This moves the tank up a bit to allow the pump to properly fit. You then install the pump. This requires you to drill a few holes in the frame and the pump will physically touch the WW tank as seen here. You then drill a hole in the bottom of the WW tank as seen where the hose is attached here with a 7/8 drill bit (not included) and attach the hose for the WW tank to pump in this location:
Click the image to open in full size.
The other end of this fat hose goes to the pump inlet and the other side of the pump goes to the nozzle routed to the intake tract.

The wires must be direct connections and for grounds, make them redundant (more than one dat means) and to the bare metal of the frame with paint removed. For spade lugs, solder the connections. Do not crimp. Do not tape twisted wires. The connection should look like this one:
Click the image to open in full size.


The hoses and pump have a relationship to each other that must not be ignored. Siphoning is when the fluid will seek its lowest level and at time drag more fluid with it. If the pump is too high, there will be an air bubble to the pumps feed and it will be sucking air. If the pump is too high, the line running to the intake tract will also siphon out inot the inlet to the engine making a split second of no meth coming out when you need it. Sort of like a lean spike for Meth if you will. The connections from there are simple and every thing just plugs in.

The inside LED that you hope isn’t lying to you. The LED is the one next to the boost gauge. As I already said it turns red/pink upon initial turn-on and then it turns green when the full flow is reached at the nozzle:
Click the image to open in full size.
The lower LED that is yellow is for the secondary fuel system that turns on at 6psi. Gauges are from top to bottom: Shift light/RPM, Boost, Wideband A/F ratio. I know, I know, this is a nitrous car…..where is the nitrous pressure gauge? They don’t make 4 gauge pods so Ihave it hidden on my hidden bottle craftily out of sight between the two seats:
Click the image to open in full size.
what is it with hiding Nitrous bottles. it isnt cheating and its not a flamable gas requiring a plackard. I'm proud of the laughing gas. Its instant TQ and yes, its a chemical intercooler that makes 200rwtq on a 50 shot in FI applications like mine. More on that in another thread.

The LED tells you when the pump is flowing and its red/pink when you are beginning to flow and green at full flow. These conditions for flow are adjusted in the main control unit under the cover as seen here.

The two controls are ‘INITIAL’ and ‘TURN-ON’. Initial is the amount you want it to flow when it first activates with low load and the turn-on controls when it turns on:
Click the image to open in full size.

N/A will use one nozzle as will small nitrous system. The nozzle location:
(My car is apart for mods of course. You don’t think I actually ever drive it do you?
The nozzle is the gold color one down at the left bottom of the tube. I am installing a new intake tube/MAF housing that is all on a single tube. It will have 2 nozzles (used with over 700rwhp or so) and an IAT. The nozzle in the upper right is the Nitrous nozzle:
Click the image to open in full size.

In the case of all applications it will turn on under a specified load as determined by the voltage of the MAP sensor. In boost applications, this is with a 2 bar MAP sensor (cars that run a 2 bar MAP operating system such as on my car don’t need to buy the 2 bar sensor with the kit and this lowers the price about 50 bucks. ALL N/A and nitrous application can use the stock MAP and don’t need the 2 bar map sensor.

HOW IT WORKS for N/A:
The control unit works by sensing the output voltage of the MAP sensor which is 0-5volts. On Boost applications such as supercharged and turbo cars, the car goes into boost and the control unit reads an output voltage from the MAP and this voltage corresponds to a boost level determined by the installer and varied by the ‘TURN-ON’ **** as shown above. The boost levels are extended ranges and the 2 bar sensor runs 0-5 volts for up to 14psi or so and N/A runs in 1 bar so its going to correlate to the load range to about .92 load on the spart advance table. In other words, in N/A applications the one bar sensor does the same thing but since the car never goes into boost, it will trigger at a set voltage determined by the load of the engine seen by the stock MAP. For example, this can be set to trigger above .68 grams per second (at any rpm). If you floor your car to pass on the hiway, it will see a high load at low rpm and begin flow. Max flow can be adjusted to occur at .82 or .88 load. The system adjustment on the user control **** in the car adjusts the overall flow and for N/A it will be low. I would also use an RPM switch to keep the system off under a given rpm such as 3000 or so. This way you are guaranteed to have a good amount of airflow with the mist to carry it in and the meth wont amount to more than 10% of the total fuel consumed by the engine.

The connection for the stock MAP is in the center wire as seen here. It taps the green center wire. This is a 2 bar MAP sensor but the wiring is the same:
Click the image to open in full size.

WHAT THE TUNE LOOKS LIKE:
Here are some screen shots (HPtuners) for the tune. In this first shot, we see the high octane spark advance. Note how the load cells lower timing as they get higher in a given rpm. These number fall off sharply under high load. With small amounts of meth, you can increase these cells making more power but you only add to the cells that are hit when you are spraying and you scan to see where it fires.
High Octane Spark advance table:
Click the image to open in full size.

The PE table will also be used to lean out the car since adding meth richens up the mix, the second way it makes power.

The third is because as we said earlier………anyone? anyone?
Its a chemical intercooler to lower IAT's.
The IAT vs timing advance table begins to pull timing at 86 degrees. It is suggested that you continue to use the stock table here and if the meth doesn’t fire it will be more aggressive in pulling timing. A downstream IAT sensor is needed for this feature. This IAT is one from the F-bodies and it is a two wire unit that is a stand alone and you simply attach the two gray wires going to your MAF to these two wires. In this table you see how after the ambien temps hit 86 degrees, the car starts pulling timing. When meth sprays it lowers the temps and the car wont pull the timing. If the car hits 104 degrees, its pulling up to 6 degrees and thats about 20HP right there. This wouldnt be pulled if the car was spraying and the IAT's were reading 85:
Click the image to open in full size.

It would install downstream of the MAF sensor which no likely meth in it. If you spray into the MAF your car will fart and barf and you will look like a guy on a 1950’s sit-com with a pie in your face.

There are two output wirse that can supply a pos or neg output. I use the neg to supply part ground to the nitrous system as a redundant safety. If the Meth doesnt fire, neither does the nitrous.

MAP ISSUES:
Since when you key the car on, you will be at Zero manifold pressure and VAC, it would trigger the spraying of the meth.

I went out a keyed on the corvette but didnt start it and read the MAP voltage; it was 1.75.

My car is a 2 BAR MAP so thats 1/2. Knowing there would be a nay sayer, I used the Hummer for the voltage reading and it was in fact 2x that valve since its a one bar MAP and got 3.7 of 5volts. My MAP voltage is lower because Im at 6800 feet elevation and that corresponds to my pressure here in nose bleed land.:
Click the image to open in full size.

Next up was to take the hummer for a drive and see what situations caused a .79 MAP value that corresponds to the 3.7 volts and it was there in all situations in which the truck was under any real load. In other wrds it would be spraying long before WOT such as in mild roll-ins for passing on the hiway.

After brainstorming and then comming up blank my brother said to put in an interupt switch like the one you use for nitrous to lock out the power to the meth pump in a predetermined throttle setting such as 1/3 throttle and use a mild nozzle that would ramp up from .7 or 3.5 volts to full at 3.7 volts. It would require the thorttle to be set neat at least 1/3 throttle or 1/2 throttle for it to spray (you install the 1 dollar switch on the gas pedal and bend it to trigger at 1/3 or 1/2 throttle so you need both the zero vac condition and at least that throttle position to have the pump get voltage to work. This 1 dollar solution fixes the start-up issue where the MAP is keyyed without the engine running. The scans showed this to be a great way to do it and it saves the use of the rpm switch and its required tach signal tap which we all know is the next 100PM's I would get.

RELOCATING THE IAT DOWNSTREAM FOR A COLDER READING

Using this harness, you can get an IAT like that on a GTO or early C6 and mount it downstream of the meth nozzle. You cant shoot meth into the MAF where the IAT is now on your car, but if its downstream you can use the IAT vs timing advance table to add timing when its shooting. If the system fails it runs less timing because it sees higher IAT temps.

http://www.lingenfelter.com/mm5/merc...gory_Code=C162

MAF TRIGGER MODULE:
There is a module that uses the MAF signal (in Hz) to trigger the meth. Some of the posters in this thread tried it. I know snow performance has it and i think the AlkyControl unit is now available.

CONCLUSION:
Meth use will help cars in the hottest places with chemical intercooling even with out tning changes. It will also extend the fuel system if you choose 100% meth and you wont be burning it when your car isn’t being driven like it was stolen


While this isn’t some great engineering feat that would score me any points, I was the DIY guy that brought it here to see it. Don’t hate. I just wanted to share and get people thinking about various other applications for things and sometimes to just get out of the box. If it is useful to you, please by all means post up and say so.

The best way to show you appreciate the time I take making these posts can be shown by making a donation to St Judes Hospital and having that St Judes Donor tag under your name. The stock market came back so lets share.

Im tired and its taken quite long to get this almost done. Off to bed.
I’m curing cancer in my garage…..please help out.

Last edited by SpinMonster; 05-23-2014 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 09-25-2009, 07:33 AM   #2
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Default Meth Kit/install

Great write-up/pics, Spin. I've been keeping my ear to the ground for info/more input on this mod. It seems painless and too good to be true, but I believe ya. You mentioned that this system is ideal for hot climes, for obvious reasons. How about in the wicked Northeast (D.C.) in the winter time? Are there perameters of use for colder times of use? Incidentally, I have a modded radio controlled car, and I'm wondering if you could.....
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Old 09-25-2009, 08:58 AM   #3
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Great write up Spin, as always. I've got an ECS kit on my car and still learned something reading your write up.

Thanks
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Old 09-25-2009, 09:28 AM   #4
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So that's why you haven't called lately....nice write up...actually I've been looking at a Meth injection kit for John, but as usual thanks for doing the research for me.
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Old 09-25-2009, 09:45 AM   #5
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Great info Spin, appreciate the time you put into these write ups!!
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Old 09-25-2009, 11:51 AM   #6
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Thanks for putting in the time.
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Old 09-25-2009, 12:23 PM   #7
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Excellent write up Spin, as always
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Old 09-25-2009, 04:34 PM   #8
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Spin, Thanks again for your contributions to this Forum. I always look forward to your threads. I probably won't be adding Meth but if I choose to, your thread will make the addition much easier. My next mod will probably be the TractionMonster conversion. I'm sure I am just one of many who continue to benifit from all your contributions. Can't thank you enough!
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Old 09-25-2009, 05:27 PM   #9
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Excellent write up Spin!
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Old 09-25-2009, 06:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YLOFEVR View Post
Great write-up/pics, Spin. I've been keeping my ear to the ground for info/more input on this mod. It seems painless and too good to be true, but I believe ya. You mentioned that this system is ideal for hot climes, for obvious reasons. How about in the wicked Northeast (D.C.) in the winter time? Are there perameters of use for colder times of use? Incidentally, I have a modded radio controlled car, and I'm wondering if you could.....
Funny you bring up the RC car thing. I have 4 and you can see one in the distance in the picture with my gauges. My Nitro 4TEC does an actual 0-60mph in 2.2 seconds. I beat anything that runs on fuel with it. Actual top speed (not scale speeds) is 70mph.

Meth works fine in cold weather. It doesnt freeze. Thats why its used in WW fluid. Octane boost is the primary reason to use followed by cooling the intake charge. Even a 40 degree day benefits from lowering the intake temps.
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:01 PM   #11
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Nice write up

Here's an example of car using it for NA
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...-454-rwhp.html
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragtop 99 View Post
Nice write up

Here's an example of car using it for NA
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...-454-rwhp.html
I just thought I'd share how to make it work and variables to get it optimized from Fi applications. The general idea was to show how it goes in and what it does as far as how it operates.

JB's car runs torco so the octane boost thats there from the torco actually decreases the gains for meth since redundant octane boosts do the same thing. In other words, his car had meth added to the HP the car had with torco so he may have seen 20rwhp from meth alone if the car wasnt already running an octane boost tune before the kit's install. what I like about the re-dyno with meth is that it shows what octane boost cant do on its own and how much further up the power ladder meth goes.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jxhunte View Post
My next mod will probably be the TractionMonster conversion. I'm sure I am just one of many who continue to benifit from all your contributions. Can't thank you enough!
If you want a set of already done wheels that even include pressure sensors and tires mounted and balanced, I am going to be getting wider ones so I can sell these. You are fairly local if you want to come get them. I need to get about $1100 for these all together. They have MT ET streets with about 1500 miles on them and I never did a burn-out. They are silver base wheels, not polished. What wheels do you have/need?

Wheels are 250-300 a set
Widening is 450 with shipping
Mounting and balancing is 40 bucks
Pressure sensors are 100
Tires are 630 shipped

So it would save you about 400 and your time. We can also catch a lunch and talk about old times.
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:21 PM   #14
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Default Z06 rear fender source?

Does anyone know who it was that was selling the fenders already painted as a package deal with shipping and all parts in the kit?

Locals here are getting silly with the pricing for painting loose panels. In NY you could get it done great for 350 for both. Here I'm hearing 600+.

I can get the fenders for 1220 shipped but the painting is silly.
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:33 PM   #15
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Quote:
Methanol is a fuel and as such it will extend somewhat, the fuel system capabilities especially if used in a 100% solution. A quick left hand turn here to dispel a myth. Those who elect to not use 50/50 mix or to those who choose to use windshield wiper fluid because they know methanol is flammable and wiper fluid isn’t, poor a gallon of it on the ground and stand in the middle of the puddle and drop a match. Yes it is flammable. Don’t think because it’s got water in it that it isn’t. A quick read by the local fuel stop-quickie mart will have this printed on the WW fluid bottle in usually more than one language.
Going to show some ignorance here and fire away:

1) Never looked to see that WW fluid used Methanol. What % mixture is it?
2) At higher mixture levels or 100% methanol, how corrosive to paint is it if you spill it accidently?
3) If it is not highly corrosive, can you continue to feed the Windshield sprayers from the tank? If no, is there a work-around?
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Old 09-25-2009, 10:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragtop 99 View Post
Going to show some ignorance here and fire away:

1) Never looked to see that WW fluid used Methanol. What % mixture is it?
2) At higher mixture levels or 100% methanol, how corrosive to paint is it if you spill it accidently?
3) If it is not highly corrosive, can you continue to feed the Windshield sprayers from the tank? If no, is there a work-around?
1-20-40% depending on brand

2-I never saw any issue with it being corrosive and yes i spilled plenty of it during the install. Is that something you read? If a 40% mix of the WW from the factory doesnt hurt the paint why would 100%? If you use 2x the amount wiping you windsheild one day, the net amount of methanol on your paint is the same isnt it? How is it different if you add water? Boost Juice is 50/50 or 51/49.

3-If you leave the WW motor connected and the lines going to the top, then yes they still work.

Sounds like you need to use ww fluid.

Boost Juice states it isnt corrosive and they also say its not flammable.
http://www.slowboyracing.com/product.php?productid=6027

Last edited by SpinMonster; 09-25-2009 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 09-25-2009, 11:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
1-20-40% depending on brand

2-I never saw any issue with it being corrosive and yes i spilled plenty of it during the install. Is that something you read?
Nothing I read, I just was asking...

Quote:
If a 40% mix of the WW from the factory doesnt hurt the paint why would 100%? If you use 2x the amount wiping you windsheild one day, the net amount of methanol on your paint is the same isnt it? How is it different if you add water?
I've seen plenty of things be safe when diluted and not so safe at full strength. Had I known the answer to question 1 included 40% (which I missed the first I read the write-up), probably wouldn't have asked question 2

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Old 09-26-2009, 08:45 AM   #18
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Thanks for the write up, we've been looking at doing this to my car for a while now. I know this question is alittle off topic, and might start a debate, but thats how we learn so.....Would you consider adding a meth system to the car and running it with 93 octane, equal to running 100 octane. Reason I ask is because a lot of times we get to a road course and the pumps are not on. Normally I fill the car at E-town with 100, and take 20 gallons of 100 with me in truck. By the second day, sometimes I don't have enough of100 to finish my runs and I end up going home early. Getting the fuel before hand, and hauling it to Watkins Glen, or Pocono is a pain in the rear sometimes.
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Old 09-26-2009, 09:27 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Does anyone know who it was that was selling the fenders already painted as a package deal with shipping and all parts in the kit?

Locals here are getting silly with the pricing for painting loose panels. In NY you could get it done great for 350 for both. Here I'm hearing 600+.

I can get the fenders for 1220 shipped but the painting is silly.
Ship them to John for paint...he probably still has paint already mixed from the last touch up.
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Old 09-26-2009, 11:46 AM   #20
carlrx7
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spin,, if your going widebooty, then what of the 18's? going to widen them more?
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Old 09-26-2009, 11:46 AM
 
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Reload this Page METHheadMONSTER: Using Meth Injection for non-boost applications
 
 
 
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