** New Product C6 Ram Air Kit available from Top Flight Reproductions **
04-18-2013, 04:36 PM
#21
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
While I believe that when the car is moving at a decent speed, there will be increased hp gained from this type of system, I would question the dyno numbers because any fan blowing on the front of the car while strapped to a dyno cannot create the same effect as the car moving through the air. Looking at the LS3, it appears that drilling a few holes at the junction of the bottom of the shroud would allow outside air to enter the "box" the air filter sits in. Any reduction in intake temp is good, but I don't see a "ramming" effect which did exist on the back facing hood scoops back in the day on SS Chevelles and Trans Ams. I've heard nothing but good things about this vendor, so my question would be for the manufacturer and his claims. It looks to be another K&N Aircharger/Blackwing type setup, not a Vararam or Superbee type.
We are not going to settle this. Obviously the distributor and MFG. of this system are convinced it is a ram air system as well as a CAI.Doesn't fit my definition of a true ram air system like the Vararam. I am sure there are plenty of folks that will buy the version they are pushing.
Hopefully we'll get some customers to post results after they purchase
04-21-2013, 04:56 PM
#23
Apparently, by some folks definition, for an induction system to qualify as a "ram air" system, there needs to be a forward facing snorkel of some type, like the vararam has. At first glance, you can see the logic there, since most folks would assume that the " ramming" of air in such a system by forward movement of the vehicle generates a high pressure in the "snorkel" which increases constantly as the vehicle accelerates, and this is what is called the "ram-air" effect, i.e. pushing (ramming") air into the engine. Therefore, by this definition, only a system that moves air rearwards (generally) towards the intake manifold could qualify as a ram air system.
However, in my view, if you have a sealed air intake duct that taps into any area of a car that has a relatively higher air pressure as the vehicle is moving forward, such as at the base of the windshield (cowl induction), this causes the same effect, although the air pressure may be less, in some instances.
Therefore, I think it depends on whether the system produces enough pressure in the intake tract to make a measurable difference in engine output, to qualify it as a ram air system. Either that, or we'll have set a benchmark of a certain air pressure by a certain MPH (now we're seeing how ridiculous this could become) to qualify it as a ram air system. Because it is simply illogical to say that because air has to flow backwards or upwards or downwards that it can't be pushed (rammed) into the intake tract under pressure from the car moving forward.
Therefore, in conclusion, I think the simple qualifier should be, does the system have a intake duct that is SEALED to a high pressure area so that it can and will receive the benefit of positive air displacement into the intake duct when the vehicle is in motion. Not that that automatically means that it will add power to your car, but, if the system doesn't cause a flow restriction and the A/F mixture remains the same, it should produce slightly more power.
At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. If you install such a system and only see a slight difference in power on the dyno, but a significant difference in ET, then, and only then, do you know that it is working. Not that this ram air effect will net you anything more than a few horsepower, in any event, unless you're doing 200mph.
That being the case, I think this system could qualify as a ram air system. As the OP is saying, hopefully we'll soon have some independent results from customers who buy and test it to see if it works the way it should.
However, in my view, if you have a sealed air intake duct that taps into any area of a car that has a relatively higher air pressure as the vehicle is moving forward, such as at the base of the windshield (cowl induction), this causes the same effect, although the air pressure may be less, in some instances.
Therefore, I think it depends on whether the system produces enough pressure in the intake tract to make a measurable difference in engine output, to qualify it as a ram air system. Either that, or we'll have set a benchmark of a certain air pressure by a certain MPH (now we're seeing how ridiculous this could become) to qualify it as a ram air system. Because it is simply illogical to say that because air has to flow backwards or upwards or downwards that it can't be pushed (rammed) into the intake tract under pressure from the car moving forward.
Therefore, in conclusion, I think the simple qualifier should be, does the system have a intake duct that is SEALED to a high pressure area so that it can and will receive the benefit of positive air displacement into the intake duct when the vehicle is in motion. Not that that automatically means that it will add power to your car, but, if the system doesn't cause a flow restriction and the A/F mixture remains the same, it should produce slightly more power.
At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. If you install such a system and only see a slight difference in power on the dyno, but a significant difference in ET, then, and only then, do you know that it is working. Not that this ram air effect will net you anything more than a few horsepower, in any event, unless you're doing 200mph.
That being the case, I think this system could qualify as a ram air system. As the OP is saying, hopefully we'll soon have some independent results from customers who buy and test it to see if it works the way it should.
04-23-2013, 08:07 PM
#24
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Apparently, by some folks definition, for an induction system to qualify as a "ram air" system, there needs to be a forward facing snorkel of some type, like the vararam has. At first glance, you can see the logic there, since most folks would assume that the " ramming" of air in such a system by forward movement of the vehicle generates a high pressure in the "snorkel" which increases constantly as the vehicle accelerates, and this is what is called the "ram-air" effect, i.e. pushing (ramming") air into the engine. Therefore, by this definition, only a system that moves air rearwards (generally) towards the intake manifold could qualify as a ram air system.
However, in my view, if you have a sealed air intake duct that taps into any area of a car that has a relatively higher air pressure as the vehicle is moving forward, such as at the base of the windshield (cowl induction), this causes the same effect, although the air pressure may be less, in some instances.
Therefore, I think it depends on whether the system produces enough pressure in the intake tract to make a measurable difference in engine output, to qualify it as a ram air system. Either that, or we'll have set a benchmark of a certain air pressure by a certain MPH (now we're seeing how ridiculous this could become) to qualify it as a ram air system. Because it is simply illogical to say that because air has to flow backwards or upwards or downwards that it can't be pushed (rammed) into the intake tract under pressure from the car moving forward.
Therefore, in conclusion, I think the simple qualifier should be, does the system have a intake duct that is SEALED to a high pressure area so that it can and will receive the benefit of positive air displacement into the intake duct when the vehicle is in motion. Not that that automatically means that it will add power to your car, but, if the system doesn't cause a flow restriction and the A/F mixture remains the same, it should produce slightly more power.
At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. If you install such a system and only see a slight difference in power on the dyno, but a significant difference in ET, then, and only then, do you know that it is working. Not that this ram air effect will net you anything more than a few horsepower, in any event, unless you're doing 200mph.
That being the case, I think this system could qualify as a ram air system. As the OP is saying, hopefully we'll soon have some independent results from customers who buy and test it to see if it works the way it should.
However, in my view, if you have a sealed air intake duct that taps into any area of a car that has a relatively higher air pressure as the vehicle is moving forward, such as at the base of the windshield (cowl induction), this causes the same effect, although the air pressure may be less, in some instances.
Therefore, I think it depends on whether the system produces enough pressure in the intake tract to make a measurable difference in engine output, to qualify it as a ram air system. Either that, or we'll have set a benchmark of a certain air pressure by a certain MPH (now we're seeing how ridiculous this could become) to qualify it as a ram air system. Because it is simply illogical to say that because air has to flow backwards or upwards or downwards that it can't be pushed (rammed) into the intake tract under pressure from the car moving forward.
Therefore, in conclusion, I think the simple qualifier should be, does the system have a intake duct that is SEALED to a high pressure area so that it can and will receive the benefit of positive air displacement into the intake duct when the vehicle is in motion. Not that that automatically means that it will add power to your car, but, if the system doesn't cause a flow restriction and the A/F mixture remains the same, it should produce slightly more power.
At the end of the day, the proof is in the pudding, as the saying goes. If you install such a system and only see a slight difference in power on the dyno, but a significant difference in ET, then, and only then, do you know that it is working. Not that this ram air effect will net you anything more than a few horsepower, in any event, unless you're doing 200mph.
That being the case, I think this system could qualify as a ram air system. As the OP is saying, hopefully we'll soon have some independent results from customers who buy and test it to see if it works the way it should.
04-24-2013, 11:53 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
In order to build "BOOST" from the "RAM AIR" effect, your vehicle would need to be traveling FASTER than the air flowing through the intake. Its safe to say that at WOT the air speed in your intake is traveling well over 150MPH... Even the most forward facing intake is still a basic cold air intake up to the point the actual vehicle surpasses the speed of the air flowing through the intake at which point it turns into a form of boost or "RAM AIR"
When Pontiac coined the RAM AIR phrase it was all about marketing... it was successful... kind of like the new HEMI... its nothing like the 426 "HEMI" in which made the name legendary.
The gains made from the best RAM AIR system are due more from the increased cooler air to the filter area than the ramming effect the name implies. This is at least while your traveling below the speed of your intake air.
Cowl induction was Chevy's answer to Pontiac's RAM AIR and is also an effective way of introducing cooler air to the engine... but its NOT ramming air what so ever.
The intake shown is clearly no more of an "RAM AIR" system than the factory intake is... although it may flow better do to the lack of the intake resonator its still taking the air from the same location.
I think the words where intentionally misleading.
This is NOT EBAY!
The best cold air induction systems will make use of the largest possible ID and draw the air from the coolest possible location. Cool, unrestricted, non turbulent air will always make the most power... my advice is to work on getting more cold air to your filter location. Velocity starts coming into play as the air travels down the intake manifold runners just prior to the valves... at this point we want maximum velocity in order to take advantage of the scavenging effect from a properly tuned exhaust...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
When Pontiac coined the RAM AIR phrase it was all about marketing... it was successful... kind of like the new HEMI... its nothing like the 426 "HEMI" in which made the name legendary.
The gains made from the best RAM AIR system are due more from the increased cooler air to the filter area than the ramming effect the name implies. This is at least while your traveling below the speed of your intake air.
Cowl induction was Chevy's answer to Pontiac's RAM AIR and is also an effective way of introducing cooler air to the engine... but its NOT ramming air what so ever.
The intake shown is clearly no more of an "RAM AIR" system than the factory intake is... although it may flow better do to the lack of the intake resonator its still taking the air from the same location.
I think the words where intentionally misleading.
This is NOT EBAY!
The best cold air induction systems will make use of the largest possible ID and draw the air from the coolest possible location. Cool, unrestricted, non turbulent air will always make the most power... my advice is to work on getting more cold air to your filter location. Velocity starts coming into play as the air travels down the intake manifold runners just prior to the valves... at this point we want maximum velocity in order to take advantage of the scavenging effect from a properly tuned exhaust...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
Last edited by AIR_RAM; 04-25-2013 at 12:11 AM.
04-27-2013, 08:01 AM
#26
In order to build "BOOST" from the "RAM AIR" effect, your vehicle would need to be traveling FASTER than the air flowing through the intake. Its safe to say that at WOT the air speed in your intake is traveling well over 150MPH... Even the most forward facing intake is still a basic cold air intake up to the point the actual vehicle surpasses the speed of the air flowing through the intake at which point it turns into a form of boost or "RAM AIR"
When Pontiac coined the RAM AIR phrase it was all about marketing... it was successful... kind of like the new HEMI... its nothing like the 426 "HEMI" in which made the name legendary.
The gains made from the best RAM AIR system are due more from the increased cooler air to the filter area than the ramming effect the name implies. This is at least while your traveling below the speed of your intake air.
Cowl induction was Chevy's answer to Pontiac's RAM AIR and is also an effective way of introducing cooler air to the engine... but its NOT ramming air what so ever.
The intake shown is clearly no more of an "RAM AIR" system than the factory intake is... although it may flow better do to the lack of the intake resonator its still taking the air from the same location.
I think the words where intentionally misleading.
This is NOT EBAY!
The best cold air induction systems will make use of the largest possible ID and draw the air from the coolest possible location. Cool, unrestricted, non turbulent air will always make the most power... my advice is to work on getting more cold air to your filter location. Velocity starts coming into play as the air travels down the intake manifold runners just prior to the valves... at this point we want maximum velocity in order to take advantage of the scavenging effect from a properly tuned exhaust...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
When Pontiac coined the RAM AIR phrase it was all about marketing... it was successful... kind of like the new HEMI... its nothing like the 426 "HEMI" in which made the name legendary.
The gains made from the best RAM AIR system are due more from the increased cooler air to the filter area than the ramming effect the name implies. This is at least while your traveling below the speed of your intake air.
Cowl induction was Chevy's answer to Pontiac's RAM AIR and is also an effective way of introducing cooler air to the engine... but its NOT ramming air what so ever.
The intake shown is clearly no more of an "RAM AIR" system than the factory intake is... although it may flow better do to the lack of the intake resonator its still taking the air from the same location.
I think the words where intentionally misleading.
This is NOT EBAY!
The best cold air induction systems will make use of the largest possible ID and draw the air from the coolest possible location. Cool, unrestricted, non turbulent air will always make the most power... my advice is to work on getting more cold air to your filter location. Velocity starts coming into play as the air travels down the intake manifold runners just prior to the valves... at this point we want maximum velocity in order to take advantage of the scavenging effect from a properly tuned exhaust...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
As you rightly point out, a vehicle would most likely to be traveling at over 150MPH (perhaps more) for any of the so-called ram air systems to build any measureable positive pressure (boost) at the throttle body, as, all things remaining equal, the engine will no doubt require and will ingest more air as the vehicle speed increases as well. I haven't seen any imperical data on this though (although I am sure there is much out there), so I am not professing to being an expert, just trying to apply some common sense. In short, I think ram air is about whether you are ramming air into the inlet tract and/or through the air filter, rather than whether you are building a positive pressure at the car's throttle body.
I seriously doubt whether any of late sixties GTO's etc, could go fast enough to generate a single horsepower from "ram-air boost" in the form of positive pressure in the throat of the carburetor, especially with the small inlets that they had on their hoods.
Therefore, my estimation, the term "ram air" was always, from its inception, a bit misleading, and nothing more than an advertising gimmick. I have seen many articles written and many arguments advanced in respect of this over the years, but I agree with you that the way that it is much more likley that such a system only works to increase horsepower by supplying more, cooler outside air (and not positive air pressure) to the throttle body than with the stock air inlet system.
Having said that, however, the one difference I see with this system over the stock one is that the inlet of this is sealed to an area that produces a high flow of air (and most likely pressure) when a vette is speeding down the road, so to that it effectively pushes cooler air through the filter. If that is the qualifier for ram air, then I still say that this could be properly called a ram air system.
04-27-2013, 09:41 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
I agree with your reasoning, but not necessary your conclusion. The point I was trying to make, perhaps inelegantly, was that this system is as much a ram air system as any other, even though it doesn't have a forward facing "snorkel" or ducting.
As you rightly point out, a vehicle would most likely to be traveling at over 150MPH (perhaps more) for any of the so-called ram air systems to build any measureable positive pressure (boost) at the throttle body, as, all things remaining equal, the engine will no doubt require and will ingest more air as the vehicle speed increases as well. I haven't seen any imperical data on this though (although I am sure there is much out there), so I am not professing to being an expert, just trying to apply some common sense. In short, I think ram air is about whether you are ramming air into the inlet tract and/or through the air filter, rather than whether you are building a positive pressure at the car's throttle body.
I seriously doubt whether any of late sixties GTO's etc, could go fast enough to generate a single horsepower from "ram-air boost" in the form of positive pressure in the throat of the carburetor, especially with the small inlets that they had on their hoods.
Therefore, my estimation, the term "ram air" was always, from its inception, a bit misleading, and nothing more than an advertising gimmick. I have seen many articles written and many arguments advanced in respect of this over the years, but I agree with you that the way that it is much more likley that such a system only works to increase horsepower by supplying more, cooler outside air (and not positive air pressure) to the throttle body than with the stock air inlet system.
Having said that, however, the one difference I see with this system over the stock one is that the inlet of this is sealed to an area that produces a high flow of air (and most likely pressure) when a vette is speeding down the road, so to that it effectively pushes cooler air through the filter. If that is the qualifier for ram air, then I still say that this could be properly called a ram air system.
As you rightly point out, a vehicle would most likely to be traveling at over 150MPH (perhaps more) for any of the so-called ram air systems to build any measureable positive pressure (boost) at the throttle body, as, all things remaining equal, the engine will no doubt require and will ingest more air as the vehicle speed increases as well. I haven't seen any imperical data on this though (although I am sure there is much out there), so I am not professing to being an expert, just trying to apply some common sense. In short, I think ram air is about whether you are ramming air into the inlet tract and/or through the air filter, rather than whether you are building a positive pressure at the car's throttle body.
I seriously doubt whether any of late sixties GTO's etc, could go fast enough to generate a single horsepower from "ram-air boost" in the form of positive pressure in the throat of the carburetor, especially with the small inlets that they had on their hoods.
Therefore, my estimation, the term "ram air" was always, from its inception, a bit misleading, and nothing more than an advertising gimmick. I have seen many articles written and many arguments advanced in respect of this over the years, but I agree with you that the way that it is much more likley that such a system only works to increase horsepower by supplying more, cooler outside air (and not positive air pressure) to the throttle body than with the stock air inlet system.
Having said that, however, the one difference I see with this system over the stock one is that the inlet of this is sealed to an area that produces a high flow of air (and most likely pressure) when a vette is speeding down the road, so to that it effectively pushes cooler air through the filter. If that is the qualifier for ram air, then I still say that this could be properly called a ram air system.
This has been fun. I finally got around to going to the ebay site to see what Top Flight was asking for this CAI system which is essentially the same as a half dozen others on the internet ($495.00). It's a free market guys and if they can get $495 plus shipping I 
. I already have a decent intake on my car so I am not a candidate to beta test this intake. If you guys at Top Flight want to do a real test contract with a reputable independent tuner like Mike Norris or JJ Fomato to do a controlled back to back dyno test as well as back to back testing on a 1/4 mile drag strip. Mike norris is located in Indianapolis and one of the best drag strips in the country is within 10 miles of his shop. If this thing actually makes as much Hp as you claim and proves itself on the drag strip you will sell more of them. If I had a product as good as you claim this is I would have a independent well respected tuner shop do the testing and then use the results to market the product.
Last edited by jstewart; 04-27-2013 at 09:49 AM.
04-27-2013, 10:00 AM
#28
This has been fun. I finally got around to going to the ebay site to see what Top Flight was asking for this CAI system which is essentially the same as a half dozen others on the internet ($495.00). It's a free market guys and if they can get $495 plus shipping I . I already have a decent intake on my car so I am not a candidate to beta test this intake. If you guys at Top Flight want to do a real test contract with a reputable independent tuner like Mike Norris or JJ Fomato to do a controlled back to back dyno test as well as back to back testing on a 1/4 mile drag strip. Mike norris is located in Indianapolis and one of the best drag strips in the country is within 10 miles of his shop. If this thing actually makes as much Hp as you claim and proves itself on the drag strip you will sell more of them. If I had a product as good as you claim this is I would have a independent well respected tuner shop do the testing and then use the results to market the product.
Absolutely agree. I would like to see that myself. Take one stock LS3 Vette (and maybe a heads/cam car as well) and all of the popular CAI systems and test them back to back on the same car - 1/4 mile drag and 0-60, and report which ones causes surging etc. And test them all with and without tuning. THAT would put an end to us having to do the brain damage over which one gets the best result. The only way to improve that would be to put an air pressure sensor at the throttle body to see if any of these systems really are ram air!
I'm in the market for a CAI myself, but I'm pretty sure that I'm going with the Halltech Super Bee MF103. But I'm keeping my eyes and my options open for now.
Last edited by CI GS; 04-27-2013 at 10:04 AM.
04-29-2013, 09:30 AM
#29
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=CI GS;1583750190]Absolutely agree. I would like to see that myself. Take one stock LS3 Vette (and maybe a heads/cam car as well) and all of the popular CAI systems and test them back to back on the same car - 1/4 mile drag and 0-60, and report which ones causes surging etc. And test them all with and without tuning. THAT would put an end to us having to do the brain damage over which one gets the best result. The only way to improve that would be to put an air pressure sensor at the throttle body to see if any of these systems really are ram air!
This kind of testing of all the major CAI suppliers is not going to happen. The cost to do the necessary testing would be too high.
Absent a controlled test the best indication of what works we have is the drag strip records we have listed on this site for bolt on cars. It looks like the Vararam dominates that list as of now. If the new system from Top Flight sells and performs it will start to show up on this list. That might take some time. Neither Top Flight or any other supplier is going to pay for the high expense of testing their product against all their competitors.
If it were my new system and I believed it was a better mouse trap I would accelerate the process by paying a respected independent tuner/builder to first test the product back to back against the stock intake and follow it up with a back to back 1/4 mile drag strip test. Nothing like good publicity to create more sales for this product and additional traffic on their web site.
This kind of testing of all the major CAI suppliers is not going to happen. The cost to do the necessary testing would be too high.
Absent a controlled test the best indication of what works we have is the drag strip records we have listed on this site for bolt on cars. It looks like the Vararam dominates that list as of now. If the new system from Top Flight sells and performs it will start to show up on this list. That might take some time. Neither Top Flight or any other supplier is going to pay for the high expense of testing their product against all their competitors.
If it were my new system and I believed it was a better mouse trap I would accelerate the process by paying a respected independent tuner/builder to first test the product back to back against the stock intake and follow it up with a back to back 1/4 mile drag strip test. Nothing like good publicity to create more sales for this product and additional traffic on their web site.
...
04-29-2013, 01:05 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
I personally don’t think this is a debate on whether or not the system is good or bad... I feel (at least for me) the debate is if its a "RAM AIR INTAKE" which I find completely misleading... even if it was concluded to be the best "COLD AIR INTAKE" it would still NEVER be a "RAM AIR INTAKE"... You have a better chance at making sales by marketing it as "THE BEST COLD AIR INTAKE" than you have at suggesting its "RAM AIR"... Backed up with perhaps a few passed down the track of course<--- Just saying.
Any advertising suggesting this is a "RAM AIR INTAKE" is just plan misleading and will raise more questions on the validity of the advertised gains/benefits because of it.
Sorry, I am currently in the market for a CAI for my 2011 GS, the problem is I’m not sold on the "RAM AIR" part of it at all. I find it to be a misleading claim and may be the main reason I will not buy this particular intake... Nor would I add it to our website because I don’t want to be the one to have to explain to our customers what makes it a "RAM AIR INTAKE" when I myself don’t believe it.
Also, an Cold Air Intake shootout is not out of the question. All you would need is a few members to voleteer to meet up at the track... one with your intake and the other with someone who already owns "BRAND X"... You may want to set up the shoot out and give send one of your intakes to a trusted forum member to test at the track against the other guys. Have it advertised here on the forum for all to see... This can be good and bad though... good if your intake clearly wins the shoot out... bad if it looses. So its really about putting your money where your mouth is.
Have them run down the track a couple times each then SWAP intakes and run down the track a couple more times each. Post results. (Been there Done that).
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
Any advertising suggesting this is a "RAM AIR INTAKE" is just plan misleading and will raise more questions on the validity of the advertised gains/benefits because of it.
Sorry, I am currently in the market for a CAI for my 2011 GS, the problem is I’m not sold on the "RAM AIR" part of it at all. I find it to be a misleading claim and may be the main reason I will not buy this particular intake... Nor would I add it to our website because I don’t want to be the one to have to explain to our customers what makes it a "RAM AIR INTAKE" when I myself don’t believe it.
Also, an Cold Air Intake shootout is not out of the question. All you would need is a few members to voleteer to meet up at the track... one with your intake and the other with someone who already owns "BRAND X"... You may want to set up the shoot out and give send one of your intakes to a trusted forum member to test at the track against the other guys. Have it advertised here on the forum for all to see... This can be good and bad though... good if your intake clearly wins the shoot out... bad if it looses. So its really about putting your money where your mouth is.
Have them run down the track a couple times each then SWAP intakes and run down the track a couple more times each. Post results. (Been there Done that).
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
04-30-2013, 03:38 AM
#32
Race Director
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
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C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
[QUOTE=jstewart;1583765379]
Since I currently have the top spot on the LS3 bolton list with a Vararam, there won't be any of those "most importantly...bragging rights" until either someone with another system beats my time, or I swap to another system and beat my own time.
Absolutely agree. I would like to see that myself. Take one stock LS3 Vette (and maybe a heads/cam car as well) and all of the popular CAI systems and test them back to back on the same car - 1/4 mile drag and 0-60, and report which ones causes surging etc. And test them all with and without tuning. THAT would put an end to us having to do the brain damage over which one gets the best result. The only way to improve that would be to put an air pressure sensor at the throttle body to see if any of these systems really are ram air!
This kind of testing of all the major CAI suppliers is not going to happen. The cost to do the necessary testing would be too high.
Absent a controlled test the best indication of what works we have is the drag strip records we have listed on this site for bolt on cars. It looks like the Vararam dominates that list as of now. If the new system from Top Flight sells and performs it will start to show up on this list. That might take some time. Neither Top Flight or any other supplier is going to pay for the high expense of testing their product against all their competitors.
If it were my new system and I believed it was a better mouse trap I would accelerate the process by paying a respected independent tuner/builder to first test the product back to back against the stock intake and follow it up with a back to back 1/4 mile drag strip test. Nothing like good publicity to create more sales for this product and additional traffic on their web site.
This kind of testing of all the major CAI suppliers is not going to happen. The cost to do the necessary testing would be too high.
Absent a controlled test the best indication of what works we have is the drag strip records we have listed on this site for bolt on cars. It looks like the Vararam dominates that list as of now. If the new system from Top Flight sells and performs it will start to show up on this list. That might take some time. Neither Top Flight or any other supplier is going to pay for the high expense of testing their product against all their competitors.
If it were my new system and I believed it was a better mouse trap I would accelerate the process by paying a respected independent tuner/builder to first test the product back to back against the stock intake and follow it up with a back to back 1/4 mile drag strip test. Nothing like good publicity to create more sales for this product and additional traffic on their web site.
04-30-2013, 07:10 AM
#33
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=HOXXOH;1583773724]
I disagree... one would not need to "BEAT" your current best... there are too many variables involved...
The cheapest way is to do it is back to back testing on three different vehicles on the same day and same cars.
Take one with the factory system, one with this mystery Top Flight intake and then yours with the Vararam for instance.
All three of you meet up at the track and run them each 3 times as they are... then you swap intakes in the pits and do the same thing. Each of the three vehicles runs each intake 2 times down the track.
If you LOSE time with any of the other intakes and they gain time then we know there is a difference in flow.
The only issue I see is that the AFR requirements may change and it may take more than two runs down the track for the PCM to optimize or adjust.
Either way, a back to back test would show the gains/losses between the two intakes.
It could be a fun day at the track... and Top Flight may be interested in paying for the track time... I cant see it costing over 100 bucks to send 3 cars to the track to test intakes two of them already own. Who knows, it may generate a wave of sales if its everything they say it is... well all but the "Ram Air" part.
Either way... back to back testing with intakes on the SAME vehicle are the only way to test... and using 3 different vehicles will show the trends of what intake is making the greatest difference.
Again... been there done that in the Dodge Ram community...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
The cheapest way is to do it is back to back testing on three different vehicles on the same day and same cars.
Take one with the factory system, one with this mystery Top Flight intake and then yours with the Vararam for instance.
All three of you meet up at the track and run them each 3 times as they are... then you swap intakes in the pits and do the same thing. Each of the three vehicles runs each intake 2 times down the track.
If you LOSE time with any of the other intakes and they gain time then we know there is a difference in flow.
The only issue I see is that the AFR requirements may change and it may take more than two runs down the track for the PCM to optimize or adjust.
Either way, a back to back test would show the gains/losses between the two intakes.
It could be a fun day at the track... and Top Flight may be interested in paying for the track time... I cant see it costing over 100 bucks to send 3 cars to the track to test intakes two of them already own. Who knows, it may generate a wave of sales if its everything they say it is... well all but the "Ram Air" part.
Either way... back to back testing with intakes on the SAME vehicle are the only way to test... and using 3 different vehicles will show the trends of what intake is making the greatest difference.
Again... been there done that in the Dodge Ram community...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
05-04-2013, 06:55 AM
#34
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
C6 Ram Air Kit
Our Ram Air intakes are all about improving airflow to your Corvette's engine. It's just a matter of superior design. Better airflow translates into a noticeable increase in power, acceleration and most importantly...bragging rights.
Any power modifications (i.e., cylinder heads, camshaft, headers, exhaust, programming, etc.) that increases horsepower output demand the higher airflow capacity of the Ram Air intake.
Back it up with test results. Airflow test Results for the C6 Corvette flowed 35% more airflow than the original factory intake system. The chassis dyno tests indicated an increase of 15 rwhp on an otherwise-stock LS2. The C6 Ls3 performance increased by 35 rwhp. All that by installing the Ram Air intake into a stock C6 coupe.
Factory
Ram Air Kit
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http://www.topflightrepro.com/corvet...formance.shtml
05-04-2013, 07:56 AM
#35
Melting Slicks
where are the doctors at ?
I would be curious to hear from aerodynamicists, and fluid dynamics experts who better understand the principals. I wonder where the tubulent air created by open filter setups overwelm the limitations caused by the area of the opening into the engine and its internals.
When air can not stay in long enough and saturate the area of a radiator with cooler air the vehicle overheats, thus I am curious when similar effects become present in air filtration systems.
ps. I run a Vararam system in my car and have been happy with it's performance.
In the past I have run several other CAI in other cars, and although I believe some benefit was there, it was mostly the perception of gain.
When air can not stay in long enough and saturate the area of a radiator with cooler air the vehicle overheats, thus I am curious when similar effects become present in air filtration systems.
ps. I run a Vararam system in my car and have been happy with it's performance.
In the past I have run several other CAI in other cars, and although I believe some benefit was there, it was mostly the perception of gain.
05-04-2013, 12:41 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
I wondered how long it would take you to pick up on this thread and make a preemptive strike just in case any supplier or forum member promoted any CAI other than the Vararam. Took you longer than I expected.In defense of Top Flight (who I have been at odds with over this system being a real ram air system), they did not claim the system is better than the Vararam you & I run on our Vettes. The claims they are making, backed up with airflow tests and dyno testing, will be only proven out after enough of them get in the field and are independently dyno & track tested. They will also be evaluated based on component quality and ease of instillation.
Other than the ram air claim for this product, which I disagree with, I have had excellent experience with this suppliers products and customer service. Track times are not the only measure of a CAI system. I suggest we wait and see how they work out in the field.
05-04-2013, 01:26 PM
#37
Race Director
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
Posts: 16,555
Received 2,061 Likes
on
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C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
[QUOTE=AIR_RAM;1583773987]
I disagree... one would not need to "BEAT" your current best... there are too many variables involved...
The cheapest way is to do it is back to back testing on three different vehicles on the same day and same cars.
Take one with the factory system, one with this mystery Top Flight intake and then yours with the Vararam for instance.
All three of you meet up at the track and run them each 3 times as they are... then you swap intakes in the pits and do the same thing. Each of the three vehicles runs each intake 2 times down the track.
If you LOSE time with any of the other intakes and they gain time then we know there is a difference in flow.
The only issue I see is that the AFR requirements may change and it may take more than two runs down the track for the PCM to optimize or adjust.
Either way, a back to back test would show the gains/losses between the two intakes.
It could be a fun day at the track... and Top Flight may be interested in paying for the track time... I cant see it costing over 100 bucks to send 3 cars to the track to test intakes two of them already own. Who knows, it may generate a wave of sales if its everything they say it is... well all but the "Ram Air" part.
Either way... back to back testing with intakes on the SAME vehicle are the only way to test... and using 3 different vehicles will show the trends of what intake is making the greatest difference.
Again... been there done that in the Dodge Ram community...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
You missed the point here. You don't get "bragging rights" regarding performance until it's been established to be superior to what was previously best. You can brag all you want, but the ultimate right is reserved for the one at the top.
I agree that the only real way to document results is a timeslip at the dragstrip. However, anything, including a propped shroud, will show an improvement over stock, so that's nothing to brag about.
I disagree... one would not need to "BEAT" your current best... there are too many variables involved...
The cheapest way is to do it is back to back testing on three different vehicles on the same day and same cars.
Take one with the factory system, one with this mystery Top Flight intake and then yours with the Vararam for instance.
All three of you meet up at the track and run them each 3 times as they are... then you swap intakes in the pits and do the same thing. Each of the three vehicles runs each intake 2 times down the track.
If you LOSE time with any of the other intakes and they gain time then we know there is a difference in flow.
The only issue I see is that the AFR requirements may change and it may take more than two runs down the track for the PCM to optimize or adjust.
Either way, a back to back test would show the gains/losses between the two intakes.
It could be a fun day at the track... and Top Flight may be interested in paying for the track time... I cant see it costing over 100 bucks to send 3 cars to the track to test intakes two of them already own. Who knows, it may generate a wave of sales if its everything they say it is... well all but the "Ram Air" part.
Either way... back to back testing with intakes on the SAME vehicle are the only way to test... and using 3 different vehicles will show the trends of what intake is making the greatest difference.
Again... been there done that in the Dodge Ram community...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
I agree that the only real way to document results is a timeslip at the dragstrip. However, anything, including a propped shroud, will show an improvement over stock, so that's nothing to brag about.
05-04-2013, 01:49 PM
#38
Race Director
Member Since: Sep 2007
Location: Peoria/Phoenix AZ
Posts: 16,555
Received 2,061 Likes
on
1,505 Posts
C6 of Year Finalist (performance mods) 2019
I wondered how long it would take you to pick up on this thread and make a preemptive strike just in case any supplier or forum member promoted any CAI other than the Vararam. Took you longer than I expected.In defense of Top Flight (who I have been at odds with over this system being a real ram air system), they did not claim the system is better than the Vararam you & I run on our Vettes. The claims they are making, backed up with airflow tests and dyno testing, will be only proven out after enough of them get in the field and are independently dyno & track tested. They will also be evaluated based on component quality and ease of instillation.
Other than the ram air claim for this product, which I disagree with, I have had excellent experience with this suppliers products and customer service. Track times are not the only measure of a CAI system. I suggest we wait and see how they work out in the field.
You disagree with the advertising claim of "ram air" and I disagree with the "most importantly...bragging rights". The ram air question can be measured with the right equipment, but bragging rights have to be earned.
05-04-2013, 03:43 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
If the system actually does provide superior performance, I'll switch. I don't own stock in Vararam. Track times are the only performance barometer for a CAI that interest me.
You disagree with the advertising claim of "ram air" and I disagree with the "most importantly...bragging rights". The ram air question can be measured with the right equipment, but bragging rights have to be earned.
You disagree with the advertising claim of "ram air" and I disagree with the "most importantly...bragging rights". The ram air question can be measured with the right equipment, but bragging rights have to be earned.
bragging rights
I understand that in your definition
bragging rights
Last edited by jstewart; 05-04-2013 at 03:45 PM.
05-04-2013, 04:07 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
You missed the point here. You don't get "bragging rights" regarding performance until it's been established to be superior to what was previously best. You can brag all you want, but the ultimate right is reserved for the one at the top.
I agree that the only real way to document results is a timeslip at the dragstrip. However, anything, including a propped shroud, will show an improvement over stock, so that's nothing to brag about.
I agree that the only real way to document results is a timeslip at the dragstrip. However, anything, including a propped shroud, will show an improvement over stock, so that's nothing to brag about.
When you’re talking about Drag Racing then you must know and understand that there are many variables other than equipment that can affect your times.
In order to fairly compare to your current "BEST" You would have to recreate that day to include weather, track prep, tire wear/tread, wind direction, fuel in tank (Amount and even mixture)... one or more of these constant variables can affect your track times by several tenths.
Comparing this intake to the times you received the day you ran your current best would not even be accurate… just like DYNO’s.
So same day testing on the same vehicles would be the true and only test providing measurable differences. And lets be real, we would only be talking about single digit differences between the two.
Again, we have been there done that...
SPEED SAFE, AIR RAM
Last edited by AIR_RAM; 05-04-2013 at 04:09 PM.